Should Ten Hag get the sack if he fails to qualify for the CL?

[Andrew Richmond]

Absolutely he stays in charge.

Sacking him is just ridiculous.

Yes another diabolical season, but the club will surely stick solid with the manager.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Good to see you cunto

Man like JC.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

How is this even in question? If we don't get top 4 that's on the players, not ETH. We've been moving in the right direction. Put it this way. If it were up to Arsenal fans Arteta would have been fired last year. They couldn't see what he was building. It's the same with ETH. At the beginning of the year, anyone with a head on their shoulders knew that this was going to be a process. As it stands, we are ahead of where most expected to see us. So now that our expectations have risen a little bit, now all of a sudden some are questioning ETH? Give your head a shake. What a stupid pole...

 

[King7Eric]

They plugged the plug, and won 3 champions league in 3 years. As many as the mighty Man United have won in their whole history. Shows you how we overate ourselves/club and United Way & United DNA.

Chelsea have won 2 Champions League in the last 11 years, United have won 2 Champions League in over last 50 years.

Before Pep, City had gone 4 seasons with 1 League title. After Pep City have gone 6 seasons with 4 titles. If you add this season it will be 7 seasons with 5 league titles.

Yes football is a cycle but a manager is the most important figure. A good manager will absolutely change the direction of the club, that's why poor managers get sack almost within 1-2 years in demanding clubs.

Is ETH a poor manager or elite manager? now we can't tell for sure so we give him the benefit of the doubt.
I believe ETH has never competed in Champions League final in is career, he has competed only once in Champions League semi final. I believe he has never competed in any European Final.
His competitors in England Pep, Klopp have been in multiples Champions League finals, successive Champions League Semi finals. Other European finals.

As you can see, ETH is very inexperienced against his main competitors but we can say he is a manager on upward trend. Also results this season show he is inexperienced in some squad management and team structure.
What people need to understand is he can come short of Pep and Klopp. Guys have to accept it can go both ways so we need to be sober to the fact he is facing considerable competition.

We give him another season, as we look for pointers of if he has learnt his lessons about premier league. Because to win the league you need around 29-30 wins. Both Arsenal & City are at 26 -25 wins now with maximum of 30 -28 wins respectively.

So the question is can Ten Hag deliver a 30 outright wins in a Premier League Season? Can he control 30 games outright in a 38 games season?
That's the main question we should be asking ourselves

Because winning the League means you were the best team in the country, winning any cup competitions means you had a better season, with the degree of better season determined by the cup competition won. ( Carabao Cup is not equal to Champions League )

Great post. The fact that people are claiming we could finish 3rd and win the FA Cup and this thread will look stupid are missing the point. The question of whether ETH is the man stood even after we beat Barca ( at least for me) and is not knee jerk. Our recent down turn in form is not shocking but something you could see coming because we just don't control games.

I see people happily ignoring this fact and blaming it on fatigue or lack of #9 but this issue has always been there and you don't need a world class #9 to be controlling games. There are massive questions going into next season, irrespective of how this season ends. Probably a large section will be placated getting top 4 but I think there are a lot of red flags that need to be addressed.

 

[Doodah]

Is ETH a poor manager or elite manager? now we can't tell for sure so we give him the benefit of the doubt.

He ain't no elite manager. That much we can say with complete certainty.

An elite manager pushes ordinary players to achieve good if not great results. Even Eddie Howe is managing to do that this season with a bunch of nobodies. Klopp did that with Dortmund and Liverpool. By contrast, we have been on holiday ever since the League Cup win, because in his subconscious mind, ETH (and thus the team) has ticked the box. They have banked a cup, job done for this season, they think they can chill now.

Nothing else explains our current form.

 

[Mou Mou Land]

Great post. The fact that people are claiming we could finish 3rd and win the FA Cup and this thread will look stupid are missing the point. The question of whether ETH is the man stood even after we beat Barca ( at least for me) and is not knee jerk. Our recent down turn in form is not shocking but something you could see coming because we just don't control games.

I see people happily ignoring this fact and blaming it on fatigue or lack of #9 but this issue has always been there and you don't need a world class #9 to be controlling games. There are massive questions going into next season, irrespective of how this season ends. Probably a large section will be placated getting top 4 but I think there are a lot of red flags that need to be addressed.

To be honest, all Ten Hag has done is what his predecessors have done and spent a lot of money in the hope of achieving what we were sold as 'his project'. He was lucky and won the League Cup, but we are still as bad a side as we were under Jose, Ole et al. We were just foolish in believing this was some 'new dawn' of some messiah from the Eredivisie - I know I will be shot down, but I do not think he is the change we require.

I do hope I am wrong and am quite happy to admit to it if it turns out differently, but I think under a more ruthless management structure than the Glaziers, Ten Hag would be out at the end of the season.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Great post. The fact that people are claiming we could finish 3rd and win the FA Cup and this thread will look stupid are missing the point. The question of whether ETH is the man stood even after we beat Barca ( at least for me) and is not knee jerk. Our recent down turn in form is not shocking but something you could see coming because we just don't control games.

I see people happily ignoring this fact and blaming it on fatigue or lack of #9 but this issue has always been there and you don't need a world class #9 to be controlling games. There are massive questions going into next season, irrespective of how this season ends. Probably a large section will be placated getting top 4 but I think there are a lot of red flags that need to be addressed.

I believe alot of fans have been reduced to ' having a good season' narrative and not the 'best team in the country' narrative. In that when we win a cup competition and masks the manager from any criticism. Yet even in demanding clubs, a cup competition win is not a insulation to scrutiny but league wins & being involved in a title race is more accepted as genuine effort.

It does seems because of 10 years of being in the wilderness, United fans and to some degree the board/owners of the club just need to have a good season. A cup competition + top4 is a very good season to United ecosystem now.

This can be said is what's happening/happened to Arsenal in the last 19 years or so. They do have some season which they are good season but never have they been the best club in the country ( bar this season if you discredit City).

You can see the difference in how Chelsea (before last year) or Real or Barca have operate in those 15 years and see for them they usually want to be the best in the country on top of having a good season.

In 19 years of Abramovich era, Chelsea won 21 trophies. The most in that period in England. In that period Arsenal won I think 5 trophies. Arguments about the best club in London have grown in voice, because of Chelsea European wins, and 1992 - Premier League wins. What Abramovich was able to do is to know when to pull the plug both ways, either to sign or fire.

Yes we can blame sugar daddy or more money but United of Pre 2013 was not the biggest spenders but we would win 7 titles on the bounce if not for 1 point and goal difference in two seasons. Yet the United of post 2013 is one of the biggest spenders/biggest wage bill yet we have never been involved in a title race leave alone winning it.

Same as City Post 2008, before Pep City were winning one odd title in 3 years while they would outspend everyone. But when Pep arrived it has now changed to you will win the league when City have a off season.

So it shows two things,

First management have to have the desire to be the top club in the country. This desire should be replicated in signing of managers/scouts/DoF/Players etc.

Then Secondly, in choosing the best/right manager you place the direction of the football team on the pitch/ off the pitch to be in the hands of the best manager in the country.

In your honest opinion, would Ole compete with Pep or Klopp? Managers who have been involved in multiple Champions League Finals and title races? In one off games he might but in the grand scheme of things you will know you won League titles and who relegated a club in top leagues.

Now for ETH, if he wants to succeed in Man United he needs to know he competes with the absolute best in Pep and Klopp. This is first and foremost to him as a Coach. In that he needs to be tactically better or at par with Klopp and Pep in how a Premier League Season goes about. This is an individual battle. Not squad players, system, injuries, fatigue etc. This is an individual capabilities battle.

Klopp & Pep have done it severally, and shown they can conjure a team to amass 90 + points in sustained period of time. So individually you can say they are at par level. Now, things like money, squad players comes into play but individually they are 2 best.

As an example... Same as Halland vs Martial. We can say Halland plays in a better system that's why he's better etc but at the end of the day Halland is a better striker than Martial. Individually. There is no single day, Martial even placed as City no9 can be better than Halland.

So Ten Hag has to learn quickly how to control and win 30 games in a season that will place him at par with Pep, Klopp and now Arteta in fighting for who is the best coach/team that season.

Arteta did learn massively, and it has paid off in progress even if they don't win the title this season.

So we should cross our fingers that ETH learns, changes the system/structure of the team to enable us be competitive in around 30 -33 games in a Premier League Season. (Wins + draw games).

Margin of error is losing 4-5 games in a season & Being competitive in the rest 33 games.

 

[Puskas_007]

I originally voted 'Yep' but that was due to feeling a bit aggrieved at how much we've started to wobble.

Fact is I think the system he's playing seems to be working, we've been really guilty of not taking chances then letting other teams into it, we really should have been at least 2 up against Brighton for instance.

I really think in a season's time, we'll be taking more of the chances we create and have a stronger stomach for closing out games, and I think that then gives us a platform to get back to challenging consistently...

 

[iamking]

Too soon to call. Overreaction to weekend results. He needs time.

 

[King7Eric]

I believe alot of fans have been reduced to ' having a good season' narrative and not the 'best team in the country' narrative. In that when we win a cup competition and masks the manager from any criticism. Yet even in demanding clubs, a cup competition win is not a insulation to scrutiny but league wins & being involved in a title race is more accepted as genuine effort.

It does seems because of 10 years of being in the wilderness, United fans and to some degree the board/owners of the club just need to have a good season. A cup competition + top4 is a very good season to United ecosystem now.

This can be said is what's happening/happened to Arsenal in the last 19 years or so. They do have some season which they are good season but never have they been the best club in the country ( bar this season if you discredit City).

You can see the difference in how Chelsea (before last year) or Real or Barca have operate in those 15 years and see for them they usually want to be the best in the country on top of having a good season.

In 19 years of Abramovich era, Chelsea won 21 trophies. The most in that period in England. In that period Arsenal won I think 5 trophies. Arguments about the best club in London have grown in voice, because of Chelsea European wins, and 1992 - Premier League wins. What Abramovich was able to do is to know when to pull the plug both ways, either to sign or fire.

Yes we can blame sugar daddy or more money but United of Pre 2013 was not the biggest spenders but we would win 7 titles on the bounce if not for 1 point and goal difference in two seasons. Yet the United of post 2013 is one of the biggest spenders/biggest wage bill yet we have never been involved in a title race leave alone winning it.

Same as City Post 2008, before Pep City were winning one odd title in 3 years while they would outspend everyone. But when Pep arrived it has now changed to you will win the league when City have a off season.

So it shows two things,

First management have to have the desire to be the top club in the country. This desire should be replicated in signing of managers/scouts/DoF/Players etc.

Then Secondly, in choosing the best/right manager you place the direction of the football team on the pitch/ off the pitch to be in the hands of the best manager in the country.

In your honest opinion, would Ole compete with Pep or Klopp? Managers who have been involved in multiple Champions League Finals and title races? In one off games he might but in the grand scheme of things you will know you won League titles and who relegated a club in top leagues.

Now for ETH, if he wants to succeed in Man United he needs to know he competes with the absolute best in Pep and Klopp. This is first and foremost to him as a Coach. In that he needs to be tactically better or at par with Klopp and Pep in how a Premier League Season goes about. This is an individual battle. Not squad players, system, injuries, fatigue etc. This is an individual capabilities battle.

Klopp & Pep have done it severally, and shown they can conjure a team to amass 90 + points in sustained period of time. So individually you can say they are at par level. Now, things like money, squad players comes into play but individually they are 2 best.

As an example... Same as Halland vs Martial. We can say Halland plays in a better system that's why he's better etc but at the end of the day Halland is a better striker than Martial. Individually. There is no single day, Martial even placed as City no9 can be better than Halland.

So Ten Hag has to learn quickly how to control and win 30 games in a season that will place him at par with Pep, Klopp and now Arteta in fighting for who is the best coach/team that season.

Arteta did learn massively, and it has paid off in progress even if they don't win the title this season.

So we should cross our fingers that ETH learns, changes the system/structure of the team to enable us be competitive in around 30 -33 games in a Premier League Season. (Wins + draw games).

Margin of error is losing 4-5 games in a season & Being competitive in the rest 33 games.

You've hit the nail right on the head. The aim for every top club ( Man Utd, City, Real, Barca etc) should always to be the best team in the land. Trophies should be a consequence of being the best, not an isolated occurrence. I mean Leicester won the FA Cup 2 years ago and they are about to be relegated. The reason being that win was not a result of sustained excellence, but rather a result of 6-7 good games

My biggest gripe with the club ( and this comes back to the owners at the end of the day and something Gary Neville keeps repeating but people keep making fun of him) is that Utd have lost the desire to have sustained excellence and become dependent on finding a fix for each season/situation as it comes along. Winning the League Cup or Europa League is not indicative of sustained excellence. As you say we need players and staff who are going to be excellent 30-31 out of 38 games. We just don't have that personnel and unless the leadership of this club pulls in that direction, we aren't ever going to be back to the top.

 

[SirReginald]

Craziest thread on CAF. He is doing a great job with minimal support from your higher ups. Your form was shite last season. This season the goals have dried up but despite asking for a forward you got WOOOOT. Come on. No one will be “successful” with that useless sack of shit. You’ve made so much progress, be grateful.

 

[JPRouve]

Craziest thread on CAF. He is doing a great job with minimal support from your higher ups. Your form was shite last season. This season the goals have dried up but despite asking for a forward you got WOOOOT. Come on. No one will be “successful” with that useless sack of shit. You’ve made so much progress, be grateful.

What do you mean by minimal support from higher ups? He has met my expectations but it's not without a pretty good support of the higher ups, who allowed him to bring pricy players.

 

[kidbob]

Craziest thread on CAF. He is doing a great job with minimal support from your higher ups. Your form was shite last season. This season the goals have dried up but despite asking for a forward you got WOOOOT. Come on. No one will be “successful” with that useless sack of shit. You’ve made so much progress, be grateful.

Meh Eddie Howe has done more for Newcastle with lesser players and budget. De Zerbi the same for Brighton while losing Trossard. He's done well but if he fails to get top 4 then he is a failure and should be sacked.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Craziest thread on CAF. He is doing a great job with minimal support from your higher ups. Your form was shite last season. This season the goals have dried up but despite asking for a forward you got WOOOOT. Come on. No one will be “successful” with that useless sack of shit. You’ve made so much progress, be grateful.

Yeah…

You know who brought in Wout, right…?

And you know who keeps STARTING him… right?

And you know who brought in Antony for 90m… right?

Cuz it sounds a bit like saying this Tory government are doing well considering how difficult Brexit has made it for England.

 

[Rolaholic]

Embarassing thread

 

[giggs-beckham]

After calming down and thinking more, I changed my vote. I haven’t seen much to convince me he is that good, but it is clear that the structure above him is a far bigger problem. Changing the manager won’t change anything except worsen the problem cause then we would go for another style having even less suitable players.

Saying that, even without much financial backing, I think we should expect 73-75 points plus next season (coaching and young players like Diallo, Garnacho and Pellestri having a higher role). And if we somehow back him with 200m+ war chest, then I think we should be looking for an 80+ point season if not competing for title for him to deserve a third season.

Saying that, I also expect the new hierarchy to be far less patient, especially if Qatar buys the club so I can understand them sacking ten Hag and bringing their own manager (and supporting structure) if we do not get top 4.

Agree with this in principle. Our standards while should always be high need to be proportional to the structures in place. This doesn't mean any manager gets a free ride either.

 

[giggs-beckham]

To be honest, all Ten Hag has done is what his predecessors have done and spent a lot of money in the hope of achieving what we were sold as 'his project'. He was lucky and won the League Cup, but we are still as bad a side as we were under Jose, Ole et al. We were just foolish in believing this was some 'new dawn' of some messiah from the Eredivisie - I know I will be shot down, but I do not think he is the change we require.

I do hope I am wrong and am quite happy to admit to it if it turns out differently, but I think under a more ruthless management structure than the Glaziers, Ten Hag would be out at the end of the season.

When or if we become a club with a preffered style of play coming from owners/DOF. Well sign players and managers/coaches that fit into that style using stringent due diligence and scouting.
So when we say 'should we sack the manager' who is the 'we' because its just us fans at the moment like little DOFs deciding if he suits our criteria. At the moment 'we' as a club are feeling around in the dark and have been for countless years.

 

[JagUTD]

We are in a transition season. Sacking him at the end of it would have to go down as one of the worst decisions the club has made.

Look at Pep and Klopp in their transition seasons.

 

[jadajos]

Meh Eddie Howe has done more for Newcastle with lesser players and budget. De Zerbi the same for Brighton while losing Trossard. He's done well but if he fails to get top 4 then he is a failure and should be sacked.

1) Neither of those coaches went far in 4 competitions winning a cup along the way and getting to another final. We’ll see how Newcastle ad Howe fare with a Champions League schedule next season.

2) It’s admirable what De Zerbi is doing at Brighton but it’s still Brighton. A lot less pressure. Potter did great with Brighton and look at what happened at Chelsea. A) There is way more pressure at big clubs B) you compete for places with the best coaches in the world, whereas at mid-table you compete with geniuses like Frank Lampard.

I mean I kind of get it that people are sick of the Ferguson example regarding the “bad start, but worth the patience” but just look at Arsenal and Arteta for a very recent reference.

I really don’t get why so many are this fickle. There’s plenty of reasons for the poor performances where Ten Haag is not at all at fault. A squad with no quality depth fighting on four fronts, injuries, no quality striker, etc etc.

If the structure does not improve no coach in the world will get this team challenging. If it does, it’s just sensible to give Ten Haag a proper chance over a longer period.

 

[jm99]

1) Neither of those coaches went far in 4 competitions winning a cup along the way and getting to another final. We’ll see how Newcastle ad Howe fare with a Champions League schedule next season.

2) It’s admirable what De Zerbi is doing at Brighton but it’s still Brighton. A lot less pressure. Potter did great with Brighton and look at what happened at Chelsea. A) There is way more pressure at big clubs B) you compete for places with the best coaches in the world, whereas at mid-table you compete with geniuses like Frank Lampard.

I mean I kind of get it that people are sick of the Ferguson example regarding the “bad start, but worth the patience” but just look at Arsenal and Arteta for a very recent reference.

I really don’t get why so many are this fickle. There’s plenty of reasons for the poor performances where Ten Haag is not at all at fault. A squad with no quality depth fighting on four fronts, injuries, no quality striker, etc etc.

If the structure does not improve no coach in the world will get this team challenging. If it does, it’s just sensible to give Ten Haag a proper chance over a longer period.

Probably because since ferguson retired we've had more than one manager where keeping them on longer did more damage

 

[Revan]

I think Elanga looks better, which is not hard because Wout is awful to watch moving, never mind playing football, but I think he's much smarter than Elanga. Elanga is limited and would be swamped and lost anywhere in from the wings.

Elanga is limited but from what we have seen of him (and we have seen a lot cause he was a regular last season), he is significantly better for United than Weghorst. He is much faster, actually scored a header or two without being 3m tall, and like Weghorst tries to press (without incredible success).

I am far from his biggest fan and I do not see why we still have him in our books, but he cannot be worse than Weghorst. No one can.

 

[Siorac]

Personally, I’ve got no idea why anyone would want their club to be like 13 times champions league winners Real Madrid. #hollow

14 times, actually. But to be fair, it IS hard to keep track at this point. feckers.

 

[MancunianAngels]

Beating city in the Cup Final is more important than finishing in the top 4.

 

[poleglass red]

Meh Eddie Howe has done more for Newcastle with lesser players and budget. De Zerbi the same for Brighton while losing Trossard. He's done well but if he fails to get top 4 then he is a failure and should be sacked.

Newcastle have spent more than us though, haven't they?

 

[Brophs]

If nothing else, questions should be asked as to whether he is in fact bald enough to manage a top club.

 

[Revan]

Newcastle have spent more than us though, haven't they?

Nope. They have a net spent of 156M (total spent of 164M), United have a net spent of 203M (total spent of 215M). We also started with a far better squad (3.6 average position in the last 3 years for us compared to 12 for Newcastle).

https://www.squawka.com/en/premier-league-net-spend-2022-23/

 

[JagUTD]

The 12%ers are shameless

 

[justsomebloke]

This isn't a knee-jerk thread. No other United manager survived not qualifying for the CL in his first full season post-Fergie.

It's a distinct possibility now. Should he stay or go if it happens?

We need a poll.

Of course not. Season seen as a whole, we've shown good progress.

 

[justsomebloke]

Does it matter one bit now that Arteta lost out on top 4 last season because 1 or 2 games didn't go Arsenal's way? Does it matter 12 months later that Spurs finished on 71 points and Arsenal finished on 69?

Let's say Liverpool finish on 71 points. There are loads of you that would continue with ten Hag if we get 72 points, but sack him if we only get 70.

Incredibly flawed way of thinking.

This.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

If people are seriously advocating for him to be sacked then that's really a bit crazy. Why would we ever let any new manager have time to build anything then? If they aren't immediately successful with the absolutely diabolical squad they are lumped with when they join, then sack them and bring in someone else.

Let the new manager start again with the useless, lazy, cowardly players staying on because it can't possibly be them! Has to be the manager and if he can't turn them into decent players with some bottle after one season then he's clearly shit. Just keep going through managers that way until finally we're calling Big Sam to bail us out.

 

[Gambit]

No. No. No. No. If he had in any way lost the dressing, sell all.

 

[Denis79]

Still curious to see what his vision for us is, this next transfer window will tell us a lot.

 

[Licha M]

The OP of this thread needs sacking.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

Still curious to see what his vision for us is, this next transfer window will tell us a lot.

yeah for me this is key with the new ownership. Do we still have players like fred, mctominay, maguire etc around. Players we have seen either arent good enough or dont fit what we want?

 

[GazTheLegend]

To be honest, all Ten Hag has done is what his predecessors have done and spent a lot of money in the hope of achieving what we were sold as 'his project'. He was lucky and won the League Cup, but we are still as bad a side as we were under Jose, Ole et al. We were just foolish in believing this was some 'new dawn' of some messiah from the Eredivisie

Strange that "New members" always seem to hate our football club. Calling us lucky for winning the league cup is a joke of a way to be posting. Is it luck we are in the FA cup final as well? If we carry on being as lucky with Ten Hag we will be lucky right up to winning the Champions League.

Complain about our shit tier away performances if you like, and for sure the players mentality, when we've gone behind in games we've lost our heads big time but we've done extemely well in all the cups. Even the Sevilla game was a freak really, down to 10 men through injuries to all our defence etc and deflected own goals... Yeah.

Ten Hag has generally sent teams out that have dominated the beginning of matches. Even Vs city, Barcelona, Arsenal, Sevilla etc. It's been mental strength that's let us down. MAYBE that comes from the manager, but I think that's more a player problem now.

 

[pocco]

If people are seriously advocating for him to be sacked then that's really a bit crazy. Why would we ever let any new manager have time to build anything then? If they aren't immediately successful with the absolutely diabolical squad they are lumped with when they join, then sack them and bring in someone else.

Let the new manager start again with the useless, lazy, cowardly players staying on because it can't possibly be them! Has to be the manager and if he can't turn them into decent players with some bottle after one season then he's clearly shit. Just keep going through managers that way until finally we're calling Big Sam to bail us out.

We don't have a diabolical squad. It's considerably better than the likes of Brighton and Newcastle, yet their manager is getting more than they should from their squad.

 

[Andersonson]

People turned on Mourinho after he managed EL and second place. Fans also turned on Ole after his shitty season. Same will happen with ETH.

If we dont get top 4, lesser players will come and same shit will happen. He is far from the level of Pep and Klopp too, nothing proves he is even close.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Sack him and hire who? De Zerbi?

Ridiculous thread.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

No corse not, but questions need to be asked about where we are considering our insane spending last summer.

 

[Fts 74]

Sacking him would be crazy, hes made plenty of mistakes especially the weghorst experiment but all managers have made plenty in their 1st season.

I think there were 9 players in the squad on Sunday from the mourinho, lvg and ole days and we all know what happened there.Of those 9 only Shaw and Rashford and maybe Lindeloff as a back up are worth keeping.

We've had some truly embarrassing results but some very good ones but on the whole i think hes done well under some very difficult circumstances.Im really interested to see what happens this summer how much of the deadwood we get rid of and who we bring in.

Personally, I'd rather win the FA Cup than finish 4th(although i accept this helps with getting your targets)but we could end up doing both which I think most of us would've been delighted with at the start of the season.