Title says it all. It feels like it's never not been a problem of some sort since Keane retired. It either feels like we lack steel or that we lack creativity or cutting edge or control or silks or press resistance or what have you. It got worse in Fergies latter years and tbf we did make a few signings and try to fix it eg Pogba, Matic, Schneiderlin but no matter what it feels like something is still missing. Discuss.
Our midfield seems to be a perennial problem
- Thread starter rollingstoned1
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Eriksen can't play 90 minutes or at pace with the Top teams in the league. That's the issue right now
It's the end of a long season where we have overplayed him and rushed him back.
You look at the game today and Rashford and Sancho were anonymous. Erikson didn't play well but he's supposed to link play and those two hid.
Erikson will share mins with someone else next season for sure. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. He has improved us this season - we just need to use him as an option next season and grow our squad.
McTominay - A physical presence but he's a sideways passer most of the time and pretty poor technically, will ocassionally have a good game and be declared McSauce by everyone
Fred - Most of the time a headless chicken, will either drop the worst game you've ever seen in your life or be an absolute phenom, very little in between and more often than not he plays poorly with the inability to pass the ball 5 yards and one of the worst shots on a player you will ever see. Can ocassionally have a worldy
Eriksen - Way past his best, suited to breaking down low block low level teams that don't press us, anything above that and he doesn't have the physical presence required to be in the game and he becomes a ghost.
Casemiro - We know he's class but majority of the team his passing leaves a lot to be desired and I have my doubts he can physically do it over an entire season anymore to the high levels we know he can
Bruno - Again we know he's class and on his day he is that man, should have had way more assists this season. However that doesn't change the fact he can be erratic at times, loses his head or try nonsensical passes and give away cheap posession in the hopes that just one of them comes off. Can ocassionally drop 0/10 performances and be called Poono by people here and on Twitter.
DVB - The less said the better I think.
This is basically our midfield options, McFred being the main two for a long period of time and we wonder why we have issues in midfield and why it blows my mind we turn our noses up at players like Mason Mount.
We need at least 2 good ones in the summer to be competitive especially if Fred and/or McTominay leave
Fred - Most of the time a headless chicken, will either drop the worst game you've ever seen in your life or be an absolute phenom, very little in between and more often than not he plays poorly with the inability to pass the ball 5 yards and one of the worst shots on a player you will ever see. Can ocassionally have a worldy
Eriksen - Way past his best, suited to breaking down low block low level teams that don't press us, anything above that and he doesn't have the physical presence required to be in the game and he becomes a ghost.
Casemiro - We know he's class but majority of the team his passing leaves a lot to be desired and I have my doubts he can physically do it over an entire season anymore to the high levels we know he can
Bruno - Again we know he's class and on his day he is that man, should have had way more assists this season. However that doesn't change the fact he can be erratic at times, loses his head or try nonsensical passes and give away cheap posession in the hopes that just one of them comes off. Can ocassionally drop 0/10 performances and be called Poono by people here and on Twitter.
DVB - The less said the better I think.
This is basically our midfield options, McFred being the main two for a long period of time and we wonder why we have issues in midfield and why it blows my mind we turn our noses up at players like Mason Mount.
We need at least 2 good ones in the summer to be competitive especially if Fred and/or McTominay leave
The mix of players is very bad in my opinion.
Each player has a major flaw in possession other than Eriksen who is woeful out of possession.
Casemiro is the best of the bunch and Bruno second but both are loose with the ball. You want players who cover each others flaws rather than making them worse.
We lack legs and ability to keep the ball. We need two major signings in midfield that are strong in these two areas
Each player has a major flaw in possession other than Eriksen who is woeful out of possession.
Casemiro is the best of the bunch and Bruno second but both are loose with the ball. You want players who cover each others flaws rather than making them worse.
We lack legs and ability to keep the ball. We need two major signings in midfield that are strong in these two areas
What are they supposed to do when DDG just kept on giving the ball everytime to City. Even in normal circumstances it is not easy to win back possession from them.
Not saying the midfield was amazing but a little bit of help from the back would have been appreciated. It must be very disheartening to see Dave kick every ball back to city
Not saying the midfield was amazing but a little bit of help from the back would have been appreciated. It must be very disheartening to see Dave kick every ball back to city
I know people think some 30 goal a season striker cures all but I honestly don’t see anything changing until we make wholesale changes in midfield, we don’t just need a starter - we can’t be relying on the Fred’s or McTominays when injuries/big games come round.
I’ll be firmly in the minority but I’d see is blow the whole budget on creating a midfield that can keep the ball under pressure over anything else, I’m absolutely sick of displays like today where we can’t keep it.
I’ll be firmly in the minority but I’d see is blow the whole budget on creating a midfield that can keep the ball under pressure over anything else, I’m absolutely sick of displays like today where we can’t keep it.
I'd say our inability to hold onto the ball today was more the distribution from the keeper, rather than the midfield being unable to string passes together. We have a bunch of midfielders who can be loose with the ball, but today I think they actually used the ball well in most cases, where they fell down was without the ball - particularly Eriksen
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is the first thing that came to mind when I saw this thread. Hard for a midfield to maintain control of the match rhythm when the goalkeeper is constantly giving away possession.
I disagree. I think our striking department is our problem. Granted, our midfield isn't as good as Citys but its better than most teams. We need a goalscorer (Kane) to compete over the course of a season. City are beating anyone atm but our issue is the lack of goals. Throw Kane into our starting 11 today and we'd still get beat but if he was main striker then it would change the dynamic of our team.
De Gea kicking it long 9/10 times so we end up losing it... That's what I call a perennial problem.
We just give away domination freely doing that.
We just give away domination freely doing that.
Our midfield has been a problem since SAF left. We've not had a good midfield in years and it seems like an area where we will never really fix the problems for some reason. We're probably getting Mount which might be a decent signing but probably won't fix the issues completely and then Casemiro will be getting old soon and around we go again.
City have moved to a 4 man centre midfield of great quality and we can barely field a decent 3.
It's also partly tactical. We could go high press city, we got overconfident and did it at Anfield and got smashed 7-0. These teams are effectively robots when it comes to bypassing the press by playing quick movements. Ten Hag mostly prefers just sitting in a midblock against teams like Brighton, City, Pool and Arsenal that have the build up play locked down. We lay pressing traps and force high turnovers (9 high turnovers vs City's 5) and when we force the turnover, we're exceptionally good on the transitions (thanks to Ole ball partly and thanks to players like Bruno and Rashford).
60-40 possession isn't the worst thing in the world against City. We mostly limited them to wide areas and we got in their box plenty of times. I think Casemiro - Bruno is a good nucleus. We definitely need the 3rd CM. We most definitely need good attackers, even a Grealish type player would've been amazing instead of Sancho today let alone a guy like Haaland upfront.
tl;dr I don't think the midfield is a huge issue assuming we sign Mount. I'd rather focus on GK, CF to improve our build up / chance creation.
My perfect summer would be Mount, Kane, Diogo Costa, Lavia. Remains to be seen if we can show that ambition in the market.
De Gea is a problem but there are also many situations where our CMs and CBs defer to him because they don't want to take risks. Too many. He isn't the one making them suck at their various weaknesses and they aren't why he sucks at his.
Today showed it up perfectly. We have one elite centre midfielder and bruno who is an attacker. City had 4 plus Phillips on the bench.
We need PnP.
Need to sign Rabiot and De Jong.
It will continue to be a problem as well because we cannot identify press resistant players. That, or we don't value that specific attribute.
Casemiro is a big reason as to why our midfield is dominated by the better teams but is championed because he works hard, sometimes makes a nice pass and has scored a few. His terrible ball retention under pressure and wish-washy passing constantly puts us under unneeded pressure and prevents us from suffocating opponents but that's overlooked because reputation outweighs actual ability here.
If we want to compete with the elite teams, not one of current midfielders start, and we don't target more lightweights like Mount
Casemiro is a big reason as to why our midfield is dominated by the better teams but is championed because he works hard, sometimes makes a nice pass and has scored a few. His terrible ball retention under pressure and wish-washy passing constantly puts us under unneeded pressure and prevents us from suffocating opponents but that's overlooked because reputation outweighs actual ability here.
If we want to compete with the elite teams, not one of current midfielders start, and we don't target more lightweights like Mount
We simply need midfielders comfortable on the ball who can control the tempo of games. We need at least three of them. We have treated the ball like a hot potato for the last 10 years and it has burnt us badly. But the midfield targets we've been linked to this summer shows we are not learning our lesson. Till we get this right, we won't be winning much.
Watching cities second best keeper pinging balls about while de gea just aimlessly booted the ball not even seeming to aim was infuriating
As an outsider. The difference in possession between City and United was daylight. United only looked threatening with a quick release & if the attack was players rushing to goal. If City got back and forced United to consolidate possession you looked lost, aimlessly knocking passes around before someone whipped in a cross from the flanks. Also the fact DDG was knocking it long is a big red flag against his name. He cant play with his feet so has been given an instruction to go long to avoid a costly turnover - basically accommodating his limitations. I would be stunned if ETH has him as your number 1 next season. His long kicks were also rubbish, little chips and knocking it to the halfway line as if it were a strategic long pass. It would have been better if your backline pushed up to the halfway line and DDG just went as long as he can, he should be able to kick the ball three lengths of the field, contest the ball in the air and try to win the second ball in the City half.
Ill tell you another thing, Bruno and Casemiro are not possession players. Bruno is excellent on the break going forward, but being able to retain and recycle possession its not natural to him, likewise Casemiro. Yet these are your two best midfielders. Rashford is another who is lethal on the break, but in tight spaces his lethality dries up. All your best players are geared toward counter attacking, and if you get Harry Kane you would have 4 players totally built for the counter. But is this the brand ETH want to play? Still not sure what the end game is with ETH and what he sees as the end product he is trying to establish.
Ill tell you another thing, Bruno and Casemiro are not possession players. Bruno is excellent on the break going forward, but being able to retain and recycle possession its not natural to him, likewise Casemiro. Yet these are your two best midfielders. Rashford is another who is lethal on the break, but in tight spaces his lethality dries up. All your best players are geared toward counter attacking, and if you get Harry Kane you would have 4 players totally built for the counter. But is this the brand ETH want to play? Still not sure what the end game is with ETH and what he sees as the end product he is trying to establish.
This. It blows my mind when people keep prioritizing other position(s) when midfield is supposedly really high in priority. I'd even prioritize a world class CM and (only) pretty good striker than the other way around.
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The striking thing to me yesterday was not how technical cities midfield was or how they dominated us in possession (although they did) it was how they physically bullied our midfield throughout the game. They seemed to win every 50-50, every aerial duel and just brushed our players to one side! We desperately need some energy, strength as well as technical proficiency!
We have no players like a Bernardo or David Silva who can get the ball - and run around with it, without ever losing it. On top of that - Casemiro, Bruno and Eriksen are all slow - so City could outrun us.
When people say 'midfield' they mean central midfield as everyone seems to have conceded wide midfield spaces are reserved for wanna be forwards to 'cut inside' with actual wide midfield duties covered by the overlapping fullbacks. I'm not sure we're good enough yet to do that, nor have players who are all good enough to do that.
Personal I think we need more creativity on the outside. Why not whip in a cross occasionally? Would it hurt?
It's great if you score but its also okay for that not to be your soul motivation for being on the pitch. I'd love to see us structured in a way where the midfield didn't consist of central midfielders and forwards.
Personal I think we need more creativity on the outside. Why not whip in a cross occasionally? Would it hurt?
It's great if you score but its also okay for that not to be your soul motivation for being on the pitch. I'd love to see us structured in a way where the midfield didn't consist of central midfielders and forwards.
I think our coaches, other than LVG, have been happy to have counter attacking teams making use of the pacy players like Rashford who can race up the pitch and get you a goal. So they havent prioritised pass masters who are constantly working and getting on the ball like a Scholes, or Carrick. Meanwhile other teams have greatly moved towards these types of players who are good at retaining the ball under pressure and having lots of it more towards the pep style. So our midfields have always ended up as players who will run around a lot and hopefully get from deep positions to help support some of the attacks when our pacy attackers counter when the ball breaks our way, rather than players who are going to dominate the ball and wear teams who are sitting behind the ball down with ever increasing pressure.
We've tried some other tactics at times, but none of them stuck very long. Such as pressing from the front well like some other teams have a lot of succcess with, that went out of the window pretty fast. Eventually each coach just realizes we have players who like to run with the ball on a counter attack and get a shot away at the end and rather than fighting against that style, they get us to play into it by being deep and trying some risky passes that lose the ball often. If we had a Scholes or a Seba Veron to at least play those passes they'd come off more often. But we do have Bruno who has very mixed results but can absolutely find the right pass. Its just it might take 3 or 4 very wrong ones before he gets it.
We've tried some other tactics at times, but none of them stuck very long. Such as pressing from the front well like some other teams have a lot of succcess with, that went out of the window pretty fast. Eventually each coach just realizes we have players who like to run with the ball on a counter attack and get a shot away at the end and rather than fighting against that style, they get us to play into it by being deep and trying some risky passes that lose the ball often. If we had a Scholes or a Seba Veron to at least play those passes they'd come off more often. But we do have Bruno who has very mixed results but can absolutely find the right pass. Its just it might take 3 or 4 very wrong ones before he gets it.
Midfield was neglected for so long that we still need two signings there immediately despite bringing in two last summer. The number of games Mctominay and Fred have played for us is just pure negligence and incompetence.
Casemiro is first player that is fit for purpose we’ve signed since Carrick and he’s probably only got 1-2 more years at this level. We lack so many qualities in Lodi elf it’s essential we sign players in the summer or we’ll face the same problems.
Casemiro is first player that is fit for purpose we’ve signed since Carrick and he’s probably only got 1-2 more years at this level. We lack so many qualities in Lodi elf it’s essential we sign players in the summer or we’ll face the same problems.
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say our midfield has been poor for the best part of 15 years. It all started when Ferguson refused to sign any midfielders and we were stuck with Anderson, old man Giggs and Scholes, and Cleverley. Poor Carrick was the only good midfielder we had. It's the main reason we kept getting destroyed by Barcelona. Their midfield ran rings around us.
Since then it's never got close to being good enough, although with Casemiro and Eriksen it's the closest it's been to functioning like a decent midfield. Just a shame Eriksen is the wrong side of 30 and looks past it. We also have trash backups. Plenty of well coached teams below us have still managed to outplay us in midfield this season.
It all comes back to the same old problem. Our recruitment has been dire. We're in a never ending cycle of needing X Y & Z every single summer because we keep buying the wrong players
Since then it's never got close to being good enough, although with Casemiro and Eriksen it's the closest it's been to functioning like a decent midfield. Just a shame Eriksen is the wrong side of 30 and looks past it. We also have trash backups. Plenty of well coached teams below us have still managed to outplay us in midfield this season.
It all comes back to the same old problem. Our recruitment has been dire. We're in a never ending cycle of needing X Y & Z every single summer because we keep buying the wrong players
We need at least 2 midfield signings in the summer.
Maybe even 3 if Fred/McTominay are shifted.
When was the last time we unearthed a midfield gem from our academy? It's always an attacker(Rashford, Voldemort).
Really could do with finding the next big thing before everyone else.
Maybe even 3 if Fred/McTominay are shifted.
When was the last time we unearthed a midfield gem from our academy? It's always an attacker(Rashford, Voldemort).
Really could do with finding the next big thing before everyone else.
Simply signing a “world class” midfielder will not remedy the multi-dimensional and long-standing issues we face, I'm afraid. Sure, some of the concerns will be alleviated with the injection of markedly better quality, but many others will remain if we do not have a coherent framework in mind. What even is a world class midfielder, and will this particular individual really address the crux of the problem, regardless of profile? We have signed players (not just midfielders) who were considered world class, or close to it, by lots of observers, but most of them did not pan out for various footballing and non-footballing reasons: Mata, Di María, Pogba, Sánchez, Sancho and so forth. Now, we should definitely not give up on signing top, top players and things could (and probably will) be different under ten Hag (vis-à-vis Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and Solskjær), but our recent history (as regards improper, neverending and ridiculously expensive midfield retooling) points to suboptimal analyses, prioritization and recruitment, and perhaps the club needs to take a step back, revisit the principles that have led us astray and consider the broader picture?
Before we try to move forward and make massive investments, we need to figure out what we really need from the midfield department in exceedingly specific terms (and with regard to challenging Manchester City on a consistent basis on all fronts, because they are not going away for the foreseeable future and will continue to set the benchmark, as the team to beat in English football). At least try to build a technically accomplished, dynamic, press-resistant and tactically astute collective that can play on the front foot against the best teams (with qualities that complement each other to engineer a whole which is greater than sum of parts). Suggestions of us piling up on a myriad workhorses and tenacious role players are gob-smacking; this is Manchester United, working hard and putting in a tactical shift is fine but in many ways the absolute minimum in terms of requirements, and we should seek to dazzle and dominate the heart of the pitch as well as the crucial half-spaces (particularly on the ball), not give up and resort to reactive football to contain our superiors (while attempting to strike back during transitions).
Acquiring as many evasive, quick-thinking, courageous and purposeful ball-carriers as possible (who can also retain possession in condensed zones), for every department, is very much the need of the hour — that releases pressure, creates pockets of space, makes the opposition work harder (especially if you vary your approach with routine pass-and-move combinations), and so on and so forth. There are times when out-of-his-diapers Alejandro Garnacho is our only credible ball-carrying threat on the pitch (which makes it easier for the opposition to contain us). Like, what gives, who are our reliably strong and technically superb dribblers? Looking at some of the playmaking ball-carriers at Manchester City (Grealish, Silva, Foden) or even Arsenal (Ødegaard, Saka, Martinelli), we don't measure up (and that needs fixing). Not even thinking about someone who can control the game, at this moment — players who can do that are rare (we should be deliberate and methodical with our move, in the contemporary game you need someone who can pass well on all three levels and also effortlessly bypass rigorous pressing with deft maneuvers), and we also need to sort out other midfield-related issues first (as long as the appropriate groundwork is not laid, even an accomplished architect will be stifled and start underperforming).
Before we try to move forward and make massive investments, we need to figure out what we really need from the midfield department in exceedingly specific terms (and with regard to challenging Manchester City on a consistent basis on all fronts, because they are not going away for the foreseeable future and will continue to set the benchmark, as the team to beat in English football). At least try to build a technically accomplished, dynamic, press-resistant and tactically astute collective that can play on the front foot against the best teams (with qualities that complement each other to engineer a whole which is greater than sum of parts). Suggestions of us piling up on a myriad workhorses and tenacious role players are gob-smacking; this is Manchester United, working hard and putting in a tactical shift is fine but in many ways the absolute minimum in terms of requirements, and we should seek to dazzle and dominate the heart of the pitch as well as the crucial half-spaces (particularly on the ball), not give up and resort to reactive football to contain our superiors (while attempting to strike back during transitions).
Acquiring as many evasive, quick-thinking, courageous and purposeful ball-carriers as possible (who can also retain possession in condensed zones), for every department, is very much the need of the hour — that releases pressure, creates pockets of space, makes the opposition work harder (especially if you vary your approach with routine pass-and-move combinations), and so on and so forth. There are times when out-of-his-diapers Alejandro Garnacho is our only credible ball-carrying threat on the pitch (which makes it easier for the opposition to contain us). Like, what gives, who are our reliably strong and technically superb dribblers? Looking at some of the playmaking ball-carriers at Manchester City (Grealish, Silva, Foden) or even Arsenal (Ødegaard, Saka, Martinelli), we don't measure up (and that needs fixing). Not even thinking about someone who can control the game, at this moment — players who can do that are rare (we should be deliberate and methodical with our move, in the contemporary game you need someone who can pass well on all three levels and also effortlessly bypass rigorous pressing with deft maneuvers), and we also need to sort out other midfield-related issues first (as long as the appropriate groundwork is not laid, even an accomplished architect will be stifled and start underperforming).
Agreed.
Those City ball carriers are pointless without their midfield, the midfield is where their main strength is, their ball carriers are nowhere near as standout.
Ideally you want Caicedo and Rice so we have Casemiro, Caicedo and Rice as options in the middle.
If you want to play a 6 and two 8s, then you can play Casemiro, Rice and Bruno.
If you want to play a more 4231 system, then you can play Casemiro, Rice or Caicedo and Bruno at the 10.
But we need three quality options in CM.
If you want to play a 6 and two 8s, then you can play Casemiro, Rice and Bruno.
If you want to play a more 4231 system, then you can play Casemiro, Rice or Caicedo and Bruno at the 10.
But we need three quality options in CM.
What we lack is technical players who can also be physical. We have Fred who is lightweight and blows far too hot and cold, Mctominay who can’t trap a pass and Eriksen who is also far too lightweight these days although technically sound. It says it all when we expect Case to carry the burden but the same problems will continue until we bring in the right profile. Most big teams have players in the first XI and bench that carry the traits that we require yet somehow here’s us still wondering why we are chasing shadows most of the time in midfield. Never looking to control the game and everything has to go forward quickly which leads to endless turnovers. Until this is sorted I don’t expect us to compete.
3 defensive midfilders and none that can dictate play, and none really that technical?
I expect Fred and MCT to be here next season. Which feels worst than losing this final to be honest.
Eriksen is a big problem that most agree is in need of an upgrade but Casemiro and Bruno have their own flaws too. You can get away with Casemiro if you surround him with two technically good players who can operate under pressure. We know that because we all saw it happen for 6 years in Real Madrid.
Bruno will always be a problem because he's a player who proved under different managers and over the years that he mostly excels in transition. He's a very poor dribbler and isn't good at linking up play in tight spaces, two things you need from your playmaker in possession. The ceiling of this team with him as our most important attacker is just not that high but we're still two years at least from addressing that.
Bruno will always be a problem because he's a player who proved under different managers and over the years that he mostly excels in transition. He's a very poor dribbler and isn't good at linking up play in tight spaces, two things you need from your playmaker in possession. The ceiling of this team with him as our most important attacker is just not that high but we're still two years at least from addressing that.
Agreed, if Bruno has space he's great, but without it he struggles a lot. A bit like pogba tbh. I don't remember the last press resident player we have had in midfield.
This sums it up nicely. But i don't think much will change in the near future. I've argued elsewhere that there's something fundamentally wrong with the way the people who run this club understand (modern) football. There's an obsession with mavericks and individual stats. You know, Gundogan didn't turn into a top-class midfielder in the last couple of seasons. He's been a brilliant player for a decade. Same with Bernardo. Yet, our club seems to be "allergic" to this kind of players. You can see it with Fred. Nothing against the lad, and i understand why people want him to start in certain games. But the moment you realize why he's important to this side should also be the moment you understand that you're doing something wrong. And not just in the way you design your midfield... What you put in, you get back. And if we keep treating football as a game for individuals and of great moments, we'll keep falling short