It’s been said a million times but a lot of the problems fall back on the keeper. The midfield are chasing the game for 90 minutes because we time and time again keep hoofing the ball upfront giving away possession.
Our midfield seems to be a perennial problem
- Thread starter rollingstoned1
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Would have made sense if we had signed Caicedo when Brighton did, but I don’t see any way we can get to that kind of spend. Seems like Mount is going to be one of the 8s next year so that leaves us needing a Casemiro back up.
I think it’ll be a cheap back up, Rabiot-type signing.
Great post
I mean we went from McFred to Casemiro and Eriksen so that was a big upgrade in one year. We need another upgrade to compete for the league 100%, but we have made progress on that front.
Some of you are going to need to accept that Ten Hag isn’t going to make this team possession-oriented like City. It doesn’t need to be this way either.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t bring in players who can get on the ball calmly, but there’s ways to a top notch football team without necessarily bringing in Frenkie De Jong.
A better goalkeeper and more comfortable defenders in possession down our right side would complement the midfielders we have. I’m not massive on Mason Mount at all, but I’m willing to trust Ten Hag on this one.
We have two of the world’s best players in transition in Bruno and Rashford. Add a striker to that and get more out of Antony and Garnacho and we’re perfectly capable of being a really good team, even without that metronome people understandably want to see at the club.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t bring in players who can get on the ball calmly, but there’s ways to a top notch football team without necessarily bringing in Frenkie De Jong.
A better goalkeeper and more comfortable defenders in possession down our right side would complement the midfielders we have. I’m not massive on Mason Mount at all, but I’m willing to trust Ten Hag on this one.
We have two of the world’s best players in transition in Bruno and Rashford. Add a striker to that and get more out of Antony and Garnacho and we’re perfectly capable of being a really good team, even without that metronome people understandably want to see at the club.
Agree with this wholeheartedly. Players considered our best will force us to play a certain way, which, IMO, is not conducive to getting us back to the top.
I agree with the main concensus on here, especially the fact we buy 'WC or very good players' on big wages and out outlay on transfer fees, then they dont perform for us as we want them to. That is because they have usually had the same standard of player playing with them at their previous club. Would De Bruyne have performed here at the same level he has for City, for example? We need to start from the basics and scout the Caicedo's when they will cost a lot less than 70/80 mill or more. This way our transfer budget stretches more, then the WC player signing will stand out as a WC player. Until we learn this lesson, buying the likes of a 80 mill or more player is just going to get lost in the same scenario and we will still get turned over by the Brentfords, Brightons as well as the big boys.
Liverpool were the best team in the world for a period and had the likes of Milner and Henderson in midfield. Fabinho and Wijnaldum weren’t metronomes either.
I understand where people are coming from, but there’s different ways to skin a cat.
The likes of Bruno and Rashford aren’t going anywhere. Antony and Garnacho are going to be around for a while. Martinez and Shaw are a great start at the back. I think we need to work around these players to make something work and bring in players to complement what we already have.
De Gea needs fired out of a cannon. Wan-Bissaka isn’t the answer at right back. Varane, as brilliant as he is, isn’t for the long haul and can be replaced by somebody more slick in possession to get into the midfield like we’re seeing with Stones.
Ten Hag is a clever bloke. We just need to back him.
The risk is just too big if Ten Hag decides tomorrow he's gonna get rid of Bruno and Rashford to play a different way. The best time to do it was before his first season but he was never gonna get the job if he told our "football people" that.
And of course, he should've gotten rid of De Gea before anyone else. That was his big mistake last summer.
Did he look to you he was up to a challenge in the first 30 minutes?
Personally I see the issue in him moving at 50% of game speed rather than stamina.
This is patched up midfield. Casemiro always played with two #8s. We are (again) trying to force #10 into midfield.
Our midfielders did very well all things considered, it was never supposed to work against top teams.
You can't win leagues without having the majority of possession in most games. It's just a fact of the game. There might be an exception here or there but it is a definite need.
The way that Liverpool won is by running and being more physical than everyone else. It's tough, creates injuries, and doesn't consistently work because it's a lot of physical pressure.
I wasn’t suggesting we shouldn’t aim to have majority possession in most games. I’m saying that it’s possible without necessarily bringing in somebody like Frenkie De Jong.
Ten Hag may be able to do this through two players playing ahead of Casemiro and bringing in more suitable players in goal and in defence.
Thats just it though, it seems like when we sign these 'techno midget' types - for lack of a better term - like Mata or Kagawa their lack of physicality and/or speed becomes glaringly apparent while if we go the way of Fellaini, McTominay, Matic or even Pogba ( who combined a bit of everything and was supposed to help solve most of the issues) their slowness and lack of technical ability/vision/speed/ Intelligence all become an issue if not being just plain old and past it like Schweinsteiger. It's like permanently playing whack-a-mole tbh when we try to sort something out in that area and it's not heen the same case In other areas of the pitch where we had good strikers, centre halves, full backs and widemen.
Even when we had Scholes and Carrick which looks dandy in hindsight we sought a tenacious, ball winning midfielder very desperately the next summer because it was believed that that was a missing part of the puzzle eg Van bommel, Gattuso, Marcos Senna, Mavuba etc which is why we overpaid for Hargreaves and spent a whole year chasing him.
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But a player like De Jong is the easiest route to control the ball in midfield. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be.
If you want the ball a player that can pass, move with ball and has a great first and second touch seems obvious to me.
Certainly having players in the middle whose weakspot is ball retention is the long way round to improving possession.
And Ten Hag clearly agrees, hence we spent a full summer chasing him. Unfortunately, players like that are incredibly rare, so we’ve got to work to find a solution. If he thinks Mount and Bruno playing ahead of Casemiro can work then I’m willing to give him the chance to prove it.
My wider point is that there are different ways and means towards constructing a really good football team. We’re a massive window away from doing that - not that I trust the feckers in charge to actually get it done.
Its a team game, the midfield is not a separate problem...the defence and attack can help to control the midfield.
Having Martinez at the back helps out the midfield for example.
Having Martinez at the back helps out the midfield for example.
Very much this. Surrendering possession non stop due to the keeper is a big problem for us. All the top teams know it too, we don't even have the forward players to make hoofing it viable even if De Gea could kick the ball.
They also made sure they had full backs who were brilliant in possession, a goalkeeper who could feed the ball into midfield and some proper goalscorers in wide positions. It wasn’t just about the running, albeit I take your point that work rate was a large part of it.
I look at the most successful Bayern sides in recent years as a more realistic template than, say, City. We’re not going to play like them; no point even trying to.
If we had ballers in midfield we wouldn't go back to ddg as much as we do to begin with. We are scared in there, retreat back to ddg, hump it long, lose possession.
They're not that good on the ball. But the whole team moves so it always seems like there's an option to pass. They too move without the ball creating triangles and sometimes rectangle of players making themselves available for pass.
Give them McTominay he'll at least be functional, whilst if we got De Bruyne he'll look clueless and ended up doing what Bruno did.
I agree you don't have to play like a Pep team to win a league. You don't have to pass it around quite to that extent.
But if its universally agreed you need the ball to consistently challenge for leagues, ball playing midfielders who can move with the ball are an obvious route to that.
Yeah you can go a different route, have a couple of hardworkers in there and then compensate for them in other areas.
But why bother? Why complicate it?
Complicating it to me is what we've been doing for a decade.
They are very well organised and balanced.
It's surprising it's an Arsenal fan who has said what I said in January. Maybe it's the reason I was called an opposition fan by many here when I called out our midfield issues as the main problem to where our ceiling is.
I think ETH like many fans here, really think we have good players but it's damn visible how poor we are with some players around. Credit to ETH he really saw Maguire limitations something Ole was unable to see.
Not to pass blame as I usually advocate for managers to be judged by their own merit, but Ole transfers did set the club back tremendously. It has set ETH massively bad in terms of talent, quality and going concern.
If you're honest with yourself the signings of Maguire, Bissaka, VDB, and Bruno, Sancho did make huge dent to how United play, their plan for the future, financial dent, and taking squad space + moving on issues.
This are players who have won fecking NOTHING in their careers came to United in fecking huge money, delivered nothing substantial to United just moments in between, they are not youngsters who will evolve like Garnacho.
In July 3, 2019 City signed Rodri for £62M, their record signing to date.
In August 2, 2019 United signed Maguire for £80M, not United record signing but the most for a defender. We know how it has gone since then. One was relegated many times before he came to united.
Bernardo Silva did cost around 43M.
Our Bruno 47M. We can't compare the two. Both same age, but one has won fecking everything bar UCL, on the brink of a treble, our talisman Bruno has never played in a Champion league Semi Final in his career, HAS NEVER WON A FECKING LEAGUE TITLE in his career yet he is 28 years, but we assume he's the one to lead us to success and deliver on tough high pressure games. We know how Bruno behaves when it get hard, it's not a coincidence when you have never played in high pressure games as a norm.
VDB, Sancho, Bissaka least said of them the better, they did cost the club £153M ( 35+73+45). These chaps have offered nothing to the course of making our club great again not in style of play or even achievements. Absolutely nothing. But we usually try and be lyrical about them every weekend how they will came good how we give them time, how we are not patient with them.
Bruno+VDB cost United £82M yet our midfield is still as it was in 2020. Deep issues of zero control, zero Physicality, zero ball carrying abilities, Zero ball recycling, zero half turn abilities. Remove Casemiro in that midfield we fall in to deeper trenches than before.
I advocated for a midfield overhaul since February, I was called names, same as you I don't see where ETH is going with this midfield +plus it's plan + going concern issues. In 3 years Casemiro will need replacing another dilemma which will caught us off guard as usual. Then we will need replacing aging Casemiro + undelivering Bruno. It's incredible how our fans can't see the big issues we have in the midfield.
Another thing I said months before, city have mutated to a midfield 4 with stones tucking in, us we are still a a 2 pivot midfield team. I was told 4231 is just numbers and plans change in the field.
We need 2 genuine midfielder to partner Casemiro. Bruno and Eriksen are not. That will relive immense pressure on the team immediately, then solve the strikers issues + physicality problems and goalkeeper issues next.
As I said in February, I will judge ETH with his summer signings, if he fails to address the midfield issues then 100% he will fail here. He needs change of tactics + team structure. Even Arteta did it with great success albeit without winning the league. A bare minimum is 433 setup for now. 3 competent midfielders is a must going forward.
I don't buy that as an excuse. If you can't pass back to the keeper it fecks up patterns of play and reduces our passing options. You can argue that our midfield with Eriksen is a little slow, but we have enough technical ability to control possession. But against the very best teams they know all you have to do is press our midfield. They'll pass it back to our defence as they should do and it'll end up at De Gea who'll give back possession.
It's not a one off match for De Gea, happens all of the bloody time. All we ever do is give the ball back cheaply to the opposition and they don't even have to tackle or intercept to do it.
We do need a new playmaker or put Bruno in the playmaker role and have a new Bruno. But Keeper for me should be the number one priority this Summer.
Of course, it is. People keep saying that we don't stretch defences much, that our FBs don't overlap as much as they should, and that we don't see many runs from the midfield into the final third. But for this to happen, you need possession-safe players all over the pitch. Spot on about Martinez, too. It's important to be able to play out of the back without compromising your attacking shape by having players constantly dropping off to help in the build-up.
Agreed but I don't expect the problems to get fixed imo.It's surprising it's an Arsenal fan who has said what I said in January. Maybe it's the reason I was called an opposition fan by many here when I called out our midfield issues as the main problem to where our ceiling is.
I think ETH like many fans here, really think we have good players but it's damn visible how poor we are with some players around. Credit to ETH he really saw Maguire limitations something Ole was unable to see.
Not to pass blame as I usually advocate for managers to be judged by their own merit, but Ole transfers did set the club back tremendously. It has set ETH massively bad in terms of talent, quality and going concern.
If you're honest with yourself the signings of Maguire, Bissaka, VDB, and Bruno, Sancho did make huge dent to how United play, their plan for the future, financial dent, and taking squad space + moving on issues.
This are players who have won fecking NOTHING in their careers came to United in fecking huge money, delivered nothing substantial to United just moments in between, they are not youngsters who will evolve like Garnacho.
In July 3, 2019 City signed Rodri for £62M, their record signing to date.
In August 2, 2019 United signed Maguire for £80M, not United record signing but the most for a defender. We know how it has gone since then. One was relegated many times before he came to united.
Bernardo Silva did cost around 43M.
Our Bruno 47M. We can't compare the two. Both same age, but one has won fecking everything bar UCL, on the brink of a treble, our talisman Bruno has never played in a Champion league Semi Final in his career, HAS NEVER WON A FECKING LEAGUE TITLE in his career yet he is 28 years, but we assume he's the one to lead us to success and deliver on tough high pressure games. We know how Bruno behaves when it get hard, it's not a coincidence when you have never played in high pressure games as a norm.
VDB, Sancho, Bissaka least said of them the better, they did cost the club £153M ( 35+73+45). These chaps have offered nothing to the course of making our club great again not in style of play or even achievements. Absolutely nothing. But we usually try and be lyrical about them every weekend how they will came good how we give them time, how we are not patient with them.
Bruno+VDB cost United £82M yet our midfield is still as it was in 2020. Deep issues of zero control, zero Physicality, zero ball carrying abilities, Zero ball recycling, zero half turn abilities. Remove Casemiro in that midfield we fall in to deeper trenches than before.
I advocated for a midfield overhaul since February, I was called names, same as you I don't see where ETH is going with this midfield +plus it's plan + going concern issues. In 3 years Casemiro will need replacing another dilemma which will caught us off guard as usual. Then we will need replacing aging Casemiro + undelivering Bruno. It's incredible how our fans can't see the big issues we have in the midfield.
Another thing I said months before, city have mutated to a midfield 4 with stones tucking in, us we are still a a 2 pivot midfield team. I was told 4231 is just numbers and plans change in the field.
We need 2 genuine midfielder to partner Casemiro. Bruno and Eriksen are not. That will relive immense pressure on the team immediately, then solve the strikers issues + physicality problems and goalkeeper issues next.
As I said in February, I will judge ETH with his summer signings, if he fails to address the midfield issues then 100% he will fail here. He needs change of tactics + team structure. Even Arteta did it with great success albeit without winning the league. A bare minimum is 433 setup for now. 3 competent midfielders is a must going forward.
They don't even really press our midfield. City hardly even shifted out of 2nd gear. Cut of Bruno and with no martinez we have no one to make a cutting edge pass.
Replacing ddg won't fix everything. We need someone in beside casemiro as well.
We don't need to copy City to the tee, but we need to get better at keeping the ball and pinning teams back. We're not going to go anywhere if we're not capable of controlled possession play pinning the best teams back at times and creating superiorities in the half-spaces via controlled possession play. I'm sure ETH realizes this and will try to rectify it in the upcoming windows. We can't rely on transitions only vs the best teams. That limits your team's ceiling. We more than anything need a GK that's very good in distribution, because possession play starts from the back. I'm not expecting us to pass it around like Pep's Barcelona with a new GK, but he will make a sizable improvement to our build-up. More press resistant/ball carriers in midfield are also needed. I was against signing Mount, but if ETH is going to copy his system from his later seasons at Ajax, he's a very good fit(presuming we don't go overboard with the fee and wages).
All of the CL winners in the past decade + were very good to excellent in possession. There's 1 anomaly now and then, but that's not the norm.
Liverpool were a similar transition team like us with Klopp at the start, but Klopp realized that's tiring/too chance based vs the best teams. He brought in an assistant and they slowly reverted to a positional play system. They became much better at controlled possession play along with their usual very good counter pressing. They pretty much played City at their 'own game' with tweaks here and there obviously during their best seasons. Most of their best games vs City, they had similar territorial/possession dominance as City do.
All of the CL winners in the past decade + were very good to excellent in possession. There's 1 anomaly now and then, but that's not the norm.
Liverpool were a similar transition team like us with Klopp at the start, but Klopp realized that's tiring/too chance based vs the best teams. He brought in an assistant and they slowly reverted to a positional play system. They became much better at controlled possession play along with their usual very good counter pressing. They pretty much played City at their 'own game' with tweaks here and there obviously during their best seasons. Most of their best games vs City, they had similar territorial/possession dominance as City do.
Replacing DDG helps massively. Why do you think Pep brought in Ederson so quickly? If you want to play modern football it's essential you have a keeper that can play football. It's a vital cog in the machine.
Doesn't matter who you sign in midfield if our keeper continues to hit long balls and give away possession on a regular basis. He's not even a reliable shot stopper anymore either.
Bring in a modern keeper and our football will be much better. If we continue with De Gea we will continue to play like shit next season. Nothing will change.
A team plays to its strengths - and in that glorious era of Sir Alex, Manchester United played far better with the successful teams than we`ve ever seen after his retirement regardless of their names. Note how on the relative occasions when a big name was bought like Veron, the team didn`t necessarily do better and tended to be off-balance.
And the togetherness of the team has never been the same - I would argue United has never achieved that kind of unity on-field regardless of whether players like Teddy and Andy loathed each other off-field. Yes, we do need a new goalkeeper - badly - as well as other signings but there has to be a shift occurring at a deeper level.
Some people on here keep referencing City`s money but United have splashed the cash too and without any real level of success post Sir Alex. But that goal from City within 12 seconds was just freakish - how do you defend against that? The United lads can hold their heads high - they made a game of it but the combination of a freak goal and a goalkeeper that doesn`t inspire confidence now with all his limits coming to the fore scuttled it.
And the togetherness of the team has never been the same - I would argue United has never achieved that kind of unity on-field regardless of whether players like Teddy and Andy loathed each other off-field. Yes, we do need a new goalkeeper - badly - as well as other signings but there has to be a shift occurring at a deeper level.
Some people on here keep referencing City`s money but United have splashed the cash too and without any real level of success post Sir Alex. But that goal from City within 12 seconds was just freakish - how do you defend against that? The United lads can hold their heads high - they made a game of it but the combination of a freak goal and a goalkeeper that doesn`t inspire confidence now with all his limits coming to the fore scuttled it.
Very skewed way of thinking. De Gea will lose the ball say 10 times in a game with ball clearance yet Bruno will try flicks, fall over when pressed, give mispass more than 10 times in a game.
Also is natural the game will be played more with on field players more than goalkeeper.
De Gea is a very big issues but how we hold on to the ball especially in midfield is the biggest issue.
The game is played in the 80% of the pitch (10% each goalkeeper D area) , that's why football is a game of less chances + goals. It's not a basketball game.
How you behave and take care of ball in those other period determines alot than just a keeper kicking a goalkick directly to rashford head. Rashford can pass to Bruno who then tries a flick and loses the ball, then we blame De Gea?
By the way De Gea and Bruno are just same thing in different position.
Physically zero presence, can pull off worldclass save/assist in moments, very poor in possession, they have alot of misplassed passes in them, you know what to expect of them never a 7-8 every game like Martinez.
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Agreed. One CM is not enough. Sabitzer is leaving and Donny should be sold. I would keep McTominay and sell Fred.It's surprising it's an Arsenal fan who has said what I said in January. Maybe it's the reason I was called an opposition fan by many here when I called out our midfield issues as the main problem to where our ceiling is.
I think ETH like many fans here, really think we have good players but it's damn visible how poor we are with some players around. Credit to ETH he really saw Maguire limitations something Ole was unable to see.
Not to pass blame as I usually advocate for managers to be judged by their own merit, but Ole transfers did set the club back tremendously. It has set ETH massively bad in terms of talent, quality and going concern.
If you're honest with yourself the signings of Maguire, Bissaka, VDB, and Bruno, Sancho did make huge dent to how United play, their plan for the future, financial dent, and taking squad space + moving on issues.
This are players who have won fecking NOTHING in their careers came to United in fecking huge money, delivered nothing substantial to United just moments in between, they are not youngsters who will evolve like Garnacho.
In July 3, 2019 City signed Rodri for £62M, their record signing to date.
In August 2, 2019 United signed Maguire for £80M, not United record signing but the most for a defender. We know how it has gone since then. One was relegated many times before he came to united.
Bernardo Silva did cost around 43M.
Our Bruno 47M. We can't compare the two. Both same age, but one has won fecking everything bar UCL, on the brink of a treble, our talisman Bruno has never played in a Champion league Semi Final in his career, HAS NEVER WON A FECKING LEAGUE TITLE in his career yet he is 28 years, but we assume he's the one to lead us to success and deliver on tough high pressure games. We know how Bruno behaves when it get hard, it's not a coincidence when you have never played in high pressure games as a norm.
VDB, Sancho, Bissaka least said of them the better, they did cost the club £153M ( 35+73+45). These chaps have offered nothing to the course of making our club great again not in style of play or even achievements. Absolutely nothing. But we usually try and be lyrical about them every weekend how they will came good how we give them time, how we are not patient with them.
Bruno+VDB cost United £82M yet our midfield is still as it was in 2020. Deep issues of zero control, zero Physicality, zero ball carrying abilities, Zero ball recycling, zero half turn abilities. Remove Casemiro in that midfield we fall in to deeper trenches than before.
I advocated for a midfield overhaul since February, I was called names, same as you I don't see where ETH is going with this midfield +plus it's plan + going concern issues. In 3 years Casemiro will need replacing another dilemma which will caught us off guard as usual. Then we will need replacing aging Casemiro + undelivering Bruno. It's incredible how our fans can't see the big issues we have in the midfield.
Another thing I said months before, city have mutated to a midfield 4 with stones tucking in, us we are still a a 2 pivot midfield team. I was told 4231 is just numbers and plans change in the field.
We need 2 genuine midfielder to partner Casemiro. Bruno and Eriksen are not. That will relive immense pressure on the team immediately, then solve the strikers issues + physicality problems and goalkeeper issues next.
As I said in February, I will judge ETH with his summer signings, if he fails to address the midfield issues then 100% he will fail here. He needs change of tactics + team structure. Even Arteta did it with great success albeit without winning the league. A bare minimum is 433 setup for now. 3 competent midfielders is a must going forward.
Ideally we also need two strikers but Martial is impossible to sell and will serve as a backup.
We played our best football when we beat Barca and the form since then has been a concern. We are mediocre going forward and create too few chances. This should be prio 1 this summer.
We're moving in the right direction. Next season looks like being Casemiro behind Mount and Fernandes with Eriksen as backup. That's immeasurably better than what we have had for the previous 4/5 seasons.
We do need another player next to Casemiro and Bruno in midfield but I'd add another younger DM when/if we sell McTominay. Casemiro is quality but he's 31 and can't be our only option in that position. Especially as he also showed some weaknesses at times.
De Gea gave the ball back to City 20 times yesterday. For context, the City GK lost possession 4 times.
You say it isn't a basketball game, but it becomes exactly that when our goalkeeper keeps punting it straight back to the opposition because he can't clip a pass to the fullback or fizz one into the CM
I've always yoyod between whether we need a midfielder ahead of a keeper, and I think we probably do.
You plan you the team you want in 2-3 years, not the team you want next season. In a couple of years, all but McTom will be in their thirties. That needs addressing right away.
I'm not sure on Mount but he at least fits the right profile.
You plan you the team you want in 2-3 years, not the team you want next season. In a couple of years, all but McTom will be in their thirties. That needs addressing right away.
I'm not sure on Mount but he at least fits the right profile.
The copying City thing is overly reductive. There's a whole ocean wide gap between emulating Pep's type of football and being able to withstand that type of football without luck or gimmicks. Both require technical players who aren't allergic to having the ball longer than a nanosecond.
That's really not the case. The likes of Ederson, Alisson, Neuer, Onana, Costa, etc all get on the ball significantly more than De Gea does. Teams that try to dominate possession normally tend to involve their goalkeepers quite a lot, using them as an extra man to create overloads in other areas of the field. It's why De Gea has almost doubled how many passes he makes per game this season (yet he's still well behind the keepers I mentioned) as ETH wants to do that as well. It's just that DDG is terrible at it, but ETH probably doesn't want to completely abandon the ethos of his playstyle (he's already had to make some adjustments for De Gea's limitations).
We need 2 midfielders. Erisken is good technically but he lacks pace and cant sustain 90min, he will be a superb squad player but we need someone more energetic to start and thats why I think ETH wants Mount. Apart from Mount we still need another solid cm like rice or caceido, both can carry the ball and have a good pass in them. With 2 such players we can rest Casemiro and not overplay him, same goes for bruno. Our midfield will transform if we bring these 2 in and let go of either or both of Mcfred.