Really baffles the mind when other clubs can sign good MCs like Bruno G (Newcastle) and Ordegaard and we can't.
Our midfield seems to be a perennial problem
- Thread starter rollingstoned1
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Responding to the OP, my opinion is that it's down to lack of long term strategic planning and buying stop gap measures that last for one or two seasons before having to be replaced.
Just look at our recent midfield purchases. Casemiro (31), Eriksen (31), Sabitzer(29) - to play alongside the dominant midfield due McT and Fred (31). Our whole midfield needs to be replaced in a year or two.
Then look at Real Madrid. Brought in two on the games biggest gems in Camavinga / Tchoumeni to learn and play alongside Casemiro / Kroos / Modric for a season or two. Allowed a 30 year old Casemiro to leave knowing they are now covered with Cama / Tchou / Valverde alongside Kroos / Modric. Reportedly Bellinghim in too with Modric and Kroos leaving next season having both signed one year extensions.
Been saying it for years, but our signings should be with a 3-5 year plan in mind, not the next 1 or 2 years or we'll constantly be playing catch up.
First signing for me should be Caicedo to replace / learn from Casemiro.
Just look at our recent midfield purchases. Casemiro (31), Eriksen (31), Sabitzer(29) - to play alongside the dominant midfield due McT and Fred (31). Our whole midfield needs to be replaced in a year or two.
Then look at Real Madrid. Brought in two on the games biggest gems in Camavinga / Tchoumeni to learn and play alongside Casemiro / Kroos / Modric for a season or two. Allowed a 30 year old Casemiro to leave knowing they are now covered with Cama / Tchou / Valverde alongside Kroos / Modric. Reportedly Bellinghim in too with Modric and Kroos leaving next season having both signed one year extensions.
Been saying it for years, but our signings should be with a 3-5 year plan in mind, not the next 1 or 2 years or we'll constantly be playing catch up.
First signing for me should be Caicedo to replace / learn from Casemiro.
So, basically what I've been saying, too. You need vision at club level of what style you want to play, and then create a strategy to achieve that vision. We don't have a vision at club level, which is evident in the club's recruitment, both of managers and players. A patchwork of styles and players. Zero continuity.
I despise transitional football. I don't think it suits a big club. I don't think it suits Manchester United. We should be dominating the pitch and be the side with the initiative. I absolutely hate how instead we are consistently ceding it to the other side. It's a style of football that relies on the other team making mistakes. Which could work against better sides, but we look clueless when the other team is doing the same as us and the spaces close up. The difference is a lot of them are doing it out of necessity. We are not. We can afford players that are comfortable on the ball and can progress it up the pitch with precise passes or carries. And players who can take on other players.
I don't see how transfers like Mason Mount and De Gea presumably staying as our number 1 move us towards an attacking, proactive style of football. In fact, it seems to me Ten Hag is doubling down on transitional football. But he has done enough to earn trust, so we will see what his plan is.
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If we’re being honest, most of our signings last summer felt like rush jobs to firefight problems, and we had so many problems that we could never realistically solve them all, I’m hope over the next 3 windows or so we start to see signings reflect how we actually want to play and see us chasing the best players possible for what we actually want to achieve on a football pitch, I very much doubt you’ll see last minute panic buys for 30+ year olds for much longer, if you want to be the best team, get the best players it’s really not that difficult is it?
Midfield started to become a problem once Scholes had that eye issue. Scholes, Carrick, and Fletcher did a great job in midfield after Keane left. 13/14 is when it became a real problem and has never been fixed.
Our current midfielders either lack legs and/or they're not safe in possession. None of our midfielders are safe on the ball. They all give it away far too much. The fanbase has given Casemiro a tonne of praise this season, but he gives the ball away far too much. It's even worse, because the positions he gives it away in are usually in our own half. Bruno is also always doing it, but I've always thought that his creativity makes him a net positive. He will give the ball away a lot in stupid situations, but we don't create anything without him. Eriksen doesn't have legs. He gives it away a bit less than Bruno and Casemiro, but still way more than you would like.
We need some younger midfielders. Players that can run, are press resistant, can dribble, and don't keep trying to play dangerous passes and flicks in our own half.
Our current midfielders either lack legs and/or they're not safe in possession. None of our midfielders are safe on the ball. They all give it away far too much. The fanbase has given Casemiro a tonne of praise this season, but he gives the ball away far too much. It's even worse, because the positions he gives it away in are usually in our own half. Bruno is also always doing it, but I've always thought that his creativity makes him a net positive. He will give the ball away a lot in stupid situations, but we don't create anything without him. Eriksen doesn't have legs. He gives it away a bit less than Bruno and Casemiro, but still way more than you would like.
We need some younger midfielders. Players that can run, are press resistant, can dribble, and don't keep trying to play dangerous passes and flicks in our own half.
Our midfield has been an issue for a long time, we are too easy to play against.
Bruno is a player I love but he is absolutely useless in midfield. I was watching him closely out of possession on the weekend and he just does what he wants. I saw him press wide and make is a 3 v 1 but the City player just dinked the ball in midfield, where Bruno was meant to be. I know this because when he played RW, Eriksen was in charge of marking Stones / Rodri but when Bruno went CAM, he left them so open and Ten Hag had to swap it again and put Bruno out wide.
Little things like that, will cost us and I think Bruno will be dropped because he can't follow a tactical plan.
Bruno is a player I love but he is absolutely useless in midfield. I was watching him closely out of possession on the weekend and he just does what he wants. I saw him press wide and make is a 3 v 1 but the City player just dinked the ball in midfield, where Bruno was meant to be. I know this because when he played RW, Eriksen was in charge of marking Stones / Rodri but when Bruno went CAM, he left them so open and Ten Hag had to swap it again and put Bruno out wide.
Little things like that, will cost us and I think Bruno will be dropped because he can't follow a tactical plan.
I dont think our midfield is the biggest of our problems. Looking at our players, we have 3-4 really great players in Martinez, Rashford, Casemiro and Bruno. 2 of those are at midfield.
It's clear we need new legs when the old guard ages that's for sure, but attack is a place we have consistently struggled more than in midfield the last 10 years. When you look at Bruno's xA he would have the best numbers in the league if he had a player or two at the same level as himself who could finish the chances. If we had one that could do that, we wouldnt be talking much about midfield but about challenging for bigger titles than the league and the FA Cup.
In short: Spend 100m+ on the midfield and we might get 5-8 points more - Spend 100m+ on attack and we'd be a little better off than Arsenal's place this year. Maybe 10-15 points more.
It's clear we need new legs when the old guard ages that's for sure, but attack is a place we have consistently struggled more than in midfield the last 10 years. When you look at Bruno's xA he would have the best numbers in the league if he had a player or two at the same level as himself who could finish the chances. If we had one that could do that, we wouldnt be talking much about midfield but about challenging for bigger titles than the league and the FA Cup.
In short: Spend 100m+ on the midfield and we might get 5-8 points more - Spend 100m+ on attack and we'd be a little better off than Arsenal's place this year. Maybe 10-15 points more.
90 or 45 minutes, September or May, Eriksen is not a CM. We got outplayed in the midfield with him in the side plenty of times this season. We need better, Eriksen should be a squad player.
I understand the argument, but there's no such thing as a 5-year plan in football. More so at Real Madrid. If they lose the La Liga title for a second year in a row, their fans will demand for heads to roll. If you believe that the general sentiment about, let's say, Sancho (who's young and was signed to become our winger for the next decade) around the Bernabéu after two crap seasons would be "he's young, let's wait and see", you'd be in for a huge surprise. They are the epitome of a sink or swim club when it comes to players.
Let's leave Camavinga, Tchouameni, Bellingham and the likes to the side for a minute and let's take a trip down memory lane: Arjen Robben, Claude Makelele, Wesley Schneider, Samuel Eto'o, Nicolas Anelka, even the likes of Walter Samuel and Estebian Cambiasso or academy products like Hakimi, Morata and Llorente. Can you imagine our fanbase seeing all these players flourish and win the highest honours away from OT? This place had a meltdown when LvG let Welbeck go. You can't always come up trumps. Sometimes you get it right, some others you don't. But, like most big European clubs, Real Madrid set a 1-2 year horizon and work toward that direction.
And one thing you can't blame United is that the club doesn't (want to) plan ahead. When you make Maguire the most expensive centre-half in the world and you give him a 6-year deal, when you turn De Gea into the highest paid goalkeeper in the league by giving him a 6-year contract, when you put both Rashford and Martial on such long-term lucrative deals despite having, at the time, done very little to deserve them and then you add Sancho on a 5-year contract on >300 grand p/w, plus long-term deals for both AWB, Dalot and Shaw... isn't that long-term planning?
Casemiro isn't the problem, he's the symptom. We spent the entirety of our pre-season with ETH saying on MUTV that Fred would be our "connector' in the midfield. No one at the club/staff even thought about raising an objection. Two games into the new season, we were desperately looking for a new defensive midfielder. I'm very curious to read the files on our players the club left on ETH's desk on his first day at the office. An expensive player on high wages and with no resale value is a problem when you're not closing the gap with your rivals.
United can plan 10-years ahead, if they wish. It will change very little under these circumstances. No amount of thinking about the future can help you, if you don't understand what sets you back. Understand what it is you're doing wrong, and a small step forward will be worth a thousand 5-year plans.
Lets be honest Fergie abandoned the midfield long before he retited and the squad he left behind was a mess. After Scholes finally retired he seemed to refuse to sign a top level player (no value etc) and the signings were embarrassing. From Klberson to Djemba Djemba, to Anderson and Nick Powell. We relied on Fletcher (with a known illness) and had the underwhelming Cleverly. Absolute joke of a midfield inherited by Moyes, who then signed Fellani. I would still argue perhaps the single worst permanent this club has ever made (there are plenty). For some reason we have failed to address this ever since, a reflection of the complete lack of football structure at the club and a series of dumb managerial appointments by Woodward. Youth system has been eclipsed too, as we all know.
This is why we effectively play 2 man midfield and also the reason I was always against playing Eriksen in CM. It's just difficult position to play for United, whoever plays there has a lot of dirty work to do. Honestly I'm not even sure if De Jong is the guy to do it for us.
I really believe this is not going to transform us as much as many people believe on here. Put FDJ in Eriksen place and he still has little passing options, a lot of ground to cover and some players not suited to this game (De Gea, Rashford, question mark about the striker).
I think this team will be improved by having a system and fixed XI. I believe ETH dropped this topic because he needed to be pragmatic and to be honest there was no time on training ground where we could implement some new ideas.
Yep, which is why I think we need a Caceido or Ambrobat to play with Casemiro, we need a midfielder who wont be bullied, Fred gets shrug of by KDB who isnt even known for his physicality.
Absolutely. I do understand signing #10s is more sexy than actual CM/DM like Caicedo, but I am 100% he is what we need and actually we can cover 2 gaps (Caicedo can play both Casemiro partner but also backup). In that way I'd definitely consider paying more than for Mount for Caicedo.
Is this a joke?
Oh yes, I forgot KDB is Yaya in midfield.
Use the money from the sales of McT and Fred and invest in 2 of: Mount, Rabiot, Amrabat and that middle of the park all of a sudden looks a lot healthier/stronger then we need to raise some more funds and try and solve the GK, CB and CF positions.
You could apply the very same to our striker and goalkeeper situation
I'd say moreso since Carrick and Scholes retired. Casemiro is good though, what he needs is partners in midfield.
I honestly think the decision-makers are like our fans. Always acting surprised when the signs are very clear for a long time. A year before Pogba's contract ended, when it was clear he was angling for a move to Real Madrid, Odegard was returning to Madrid from a loan where he had absolutely dominated in La Liga. It was clear even then that he was a top player, and all we should have done was swap Pogba for Odegard + money, but there were people saying "Odegard hasn't done it at a big club". We didn't do anything and let Pogba run his contract down. The same thing is happening to Caicedo...we are out here watching. The same thing will happen to Enzo le Fee, Ruben Neves, Ugarte, etc. The same thing will happen for a top baller like Micheal Olise. We will then do the dumbest deals possible in mount for 70m and trying for rice for 100m. We are really dumb when it comes to transfers and we deserve the pain we suffer becoz what is this...we punish ourselves
Pep has made the point often, he would (in an ideal world) like to be able to field a team of mid-fielders, it says it all really. If you want players to appreciate the playing nuances of every position, you need a team of midfielders (good ones of course).
Carrick was the last outstanding midfielder who on his own could make a difference, which wasn't really appreciated until Scholes and Giggs packed it in. If you ask Vidic, Rio and Evra whose support it was that kept them at OT for an extra season, it was Michael Carrick playing in front of them.
Matic was a God send in his first season, but a bit like I suspect (but hope not) it will be with Casemiro, it didn't really last for Matic. Old injuries, age and many hours playing top class football started to take its toll. I would have liked to seen Garner spending at least one season alongside Matic in the first team, being his legs, but learning his trade from one of the best, but it wasn't to be.
At the moment ETH is 'treading water,' knowing he's at least six players away from the side he wants, however, he has had a great season and had he played McT for the first hour instead of Eriksen and Garnacho instead of Sancho, who knows we might have just nicked it on Saturday.
Midfield at OT will always be a problem until its realised in the modern game that's where games are won and lost.
Carrick was the last outstanding midfielder who on his own could make a difference, which wasn't really appreciated until Scholes and Giggs packed it in. If you ask Vidic, Rio and Evra whose support it was that kept them at OT for an extra season, it was Michael Carrick playing in front of them.
Matic was a God send in his first season, but a bit like I suspect (but hope not) it will be with Casemiro, it didn't really last for Matic. Old injuries, age and many hours playing top class football started to take its toll. I would have liked to seen Garner spending at least one season alongside Matic in the first team, being his legs, but learning his trade from one of the best, but it wasn't to be.
At the moment ETH is 'treading water,' knowing he's at least six players away from the side he wants, however, he has had a great season and had he played McT for the first hour instead of Eriksen and Garnacho instead of Sancho, who knows we might have just nicked it on Saturday.
Midfield at OT will always be a problem until its realised in the modern game that's where games are won and lost.
100%. Will be a top class to world class midfielder for the next 10 years.
Yep. And we tried to go for people like Thiago (Moyes era), dumping & luring with money whole summer when every dog and his owner knew he wouldn't come here. Or even Kroos then.
Funny thing is "midfielder" in polish language translates directly to "helper" and I find it very accurate, because they cover/help on both ends of the pitch. In modern football you don't want ultra-attacking midfielders as well as ultra-defensive ones. I think this is something that United don't get or for many many years midfield has been neglected.
I mean the obsession with pushing attacking midfielders to midfield is something uncommon and we've been doing it for years. Matic was actually the guy who could collect the ball from GK/defense and progress it very well, and he could actually position himself to shield the defense. The only thing he needed is just support, and what he got was half-arsed Pogba jogging around and Bruno playing very high.
Pep has been doing the opposite as he floods the pitch with midfielders or very all-rounded players. He's been successful with this approach in every club he went to. Honestly I think he bought Haaland because he could, and didn't want to miss on the next big player.
I am actually quite surprised with Ten Hag midfield choices as he seems to have his preferred players that will always play.
They outmuscled us. Ruben Dias on Rashford, Walker on Sancho. We have no hustle in us.
Real Madrid clearly was not interested, they didn't even take him on a free.
Thanks! We will.
This is very true, Erikson was not a CM and we played him there.
I also don't remember the last time we actually played 3 proper midfilders regularly.
Thiago was widely reported to be agreed with the player and then Moyes vetoed and singed Fellani. Moyes was renowned for dithering on transfers and not trusting players he didnt know
when i had a perineum problem my doctor said it was on account of all the things i keep sticking up there.
To be fair, Ten Hag massively improved our MF with Cas, Eriksen and Sabitzer. Not ideal but much better than McFred. I expect we will continue the effort this window.
It goes deeper than that. Pep's comments about United are often quite telling. When asked whether he's afraid of United or not, he's often replied: "They are in good form, but they are a transition side". Meaning: "As long as you allow me time on the ball, i will always be able to create pockets of space. As long as you allow me to take the initiative, i will always find the way to get into dangerous positions. You may win the occasional battle, but i will always win the war".
It's not just about the midfield "battle". It's about what kind of football you want to play. Pep will go down in history as one of the managerial greats because his teams are dominant by doing the most difficult thing on a football pitch. They achieve control in the most well-defended areas of the pitch (the central channels in the opponent's half) while also being able to defend their most vulnerable areas (the central channels when the lines have been pushed higher) successfully. All this is made possible through positional play: Technical ability that will allow a player to be trusted with a particular zone. Intelligence to understand where the pockets of space will open up within the tactical set-up and positioning. With these two requirements, a magical thing happens: The ball travels to the position and not the position to the ball. Think about this for a minute, reflect on it. Then watch United's build-up over the last decade.
This season, Guardiola is really taking the piss. On the whole football world, not just us. He's often deployed Stones, Ake and Akanji as FBs. Don't forget that Rodri was more a centre-half than a holding midfielder when they signed him. If you think about it, he's often played with 5 centre-halves! He can even utilize Ake and Akanji as FBs, push Stones next to Rodri and laugh at the world: "Look, i can do it with 6 centre-halves and a forward that doesn't get more than 20 touches in 90 minutes". And we're here talking about the next 100 million signing that will fix everything, or about energy and physicality.
Well said. Fully agree and I think, this point is often quickly brushed aside only to be able to have one specific "fault".
Very good post. Thanks for putting it together.
100%.
Disheartening but true. I feel the same which is why this whole Kane and Rice topic is actually pushing me this year to rethink my supporter status. It feels like the solutions our decision makers (and the majority of fans) come up with are mostly ones where somebody invested like 2-5 minutes to think about a problem. But thats it. Feels like thats the endgame when I think that in a game where you only have a squad of 18-20 core players and with huge fees and wages involved, you have to think more to stay ahead.
Our midfield is a reflection of our poor strategy since SAF.
We have changed managers and styles of play, we have then always been swapping players to suit the new methods. We have also aimed for the hollywood signings. It''s been disconnected.
Pogba on paper was a great signing, his best years were ahead of him, a really talented player, a big name - but he suited a 433 and and had an ego. He was limited in the sense he was easily overcome in a 2 man midfield. We spent £80 million on him and didn't build around him. We signed Mikhtaryan who was a decent age and profile, but he didn't work out, he was never a Mourinho signing, so i wonder why he signed him! Schniederlin was also on paper a decent option, but he didnt work out. I suspect he would have worked at the base of a 3 man central midfield.
Then we had the players signed for their name only. Schweinstieger, Sanchez, - they added so little.
Mix in the short term fixes, Matic etc... it's just disjointed.
We have changed managers and styles of play, we have then always been swapping players to suit the new methods. We have also aimed for the hollywood signings. It''s been disconnected.
Pogba on paper was a great signing, his best years were ahead of him, a really talented player, a big name - but he suited a 433 and and had an ego. He was limited in the sense he was easily overcome in a 2 man midfield. We spent £80 million on him and didn't build around him. We signed Mikhtaryan who was a decent age and profile, but he didn't work out, he was never a Mourinho signing, so i wonder why he signed him! Schniederlin was also on paper a decent option, but he didnt work out. I suspect he would have worked at the base of a 3 man central midfield.
Then we had the players signed for their name only. Schweinstieger, Sanchez, - they added so little.
Mix in the short term fixes, Matic etc... it's just disjointed.
We need better ball progression from deep and better ball retention in the middle. That will only come from bringing in more technical players.
Excellent post. Especially the last paragraph. Too much talk about De Jong/mythical DLP solving all our issues.
In principle, I agree with you, we need to switch to a midfield box instead of a triangle sooner or later.
Overall I feel our team lacks the technical and tactical ability though to really play like City. Especially under pressure, it too often feels like our players can't make the right decision or execute them properly.
That's exactly our problem in midfield
To be fair we had matic, pogba and herera and can remember fans being very excited by matic and pogba, we also had a season with carrick, herrera and Di maria that could have been a great midfield but di maria didn't settle and lvg was nuts when it come to positional choices of players.
our real issue has been the managers who played drab football or in ole's case didn't have a scobby of tactics/coaching, maybe if we had a manager like ten hag years years and years ago we may not be in such a mess with squad
our real issue has been the managers who played drab football or in ole's case didn't have a scobby of tactics/coaching, maybe if we had a manager like ten hag years years and years ago we may not be in such a mess with squad
TBF Kroos himself has admitted that he was happy to sign for United that summer, Moyes having instigated talks and persuaded Wood to set up the deal, and would have done so if Van Gaal hadn't pulled the plug on the deal (for whatever typically weird reason). Madrid then came in, having been alerted to his availability...
EDIT. Part of it was getting Herrera, I think. But I think Moyes wanted them both and just would have agreed to a cheaper equivalent for Di Maria, who arrived in the same 1st LVG window, or not signed at least one of Van Gaal's other choices. Thiago the previous Summer was, again, provisionally agreed by SAF and then vetoed by Moyes (or rather dithered over, because he wasn't sure whether he'd suit the PL), which also opened things up for Munich...
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