Does the Profile of Midfielders We're Linked With Makes Sense?

sullydnl said:
I think we can safely assume that advanced #8 signing is Ten Hag's first choice option this summer.

It's a shape we were already playing in the second half of the season particularly and the one thing we know for a fact (because we actually made bids for him) is that we went into the summer with Mount as a priority, with all reports agreeing the intent is for him to fill that #8 spot. That's a pretty clear sign what our first choice plan is.

What's less clear is whether we want additional midfield signings, what status profile those signings would realistically be or whether we are open to switching away from that advanced #8 if Mount isn't available.

In terms of style of play, a Mount signing would seem to suggest a focus on pressing/counter-pressing. Coupled with a signing like Onana in goal and I think the stylistic shift on last season we'd quickly see is the team playing a lot higher up the pitch.

How that reflects in terms of possession is tricky to say. It certainly doesn't suggest a particularly possession-orientated side, but that's relative. Klopp's Liverpool weren't regarded as a possession side either, and had a much more functional midfield than we would, but at their peak they were still finishing second only to City in the PL in terms of average possession. I would imagine the ideal play-out of this side is something similar.
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I agree with most of what you’re saying here — both in terms of the profile of midfielder we seem interested in, and the idea that a counter pressing team doesn't necessarily mean you can't have high amounts of possession.

However, I think the biggest difference between us and Klopp's Liverpool is ball retention, particularly in midfield. I remember having a quick glance at the stats and the Liverpool side since 2018ish: Wijnaldum, Fabinho, and Henderson in that 2018-21 period were mostly water carriers with their passing. Wijnaldum and Fabinho were in the top 90+ percentile every single season for passing accuracy (Wijnaldum was mostly 97+!). Henderson was the most ambitious of the three but even he was in the high 70s. It was their fullbacks that were able to play the creative lower percentage passes.

In contrast, our midfield three in its entirety (Casemiro; Fernandes; and the third - be it Eriksen or potentially Mount) are all midfielders in the bottom 30 percentile for passing accuracy. We’re turnover central in the middle of the pitch. Until we fix that, we don't really go from averaging 53% possession a game to the 60% that the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool (and now Brighton) seem to average.
 
DWelbz19 said:
I agree with most of what you’re saying here — both in terms of the profile of midfielder we seem interested in, and the idea that a counter pressing team doesn't necessarily mean you can't have high amounts of possession.

However, I think the biggest difference between us and Klopp's Liverpool is ball retention, particularly in midfield. I remember having a quick glance at the stats and the Liverpool side since 2018ish: Wijnaldum, Fabinho, and Henderson in that 2018-21 period were mostly water carriers with their passing. Wijnaldum and Fabinho were in the top 90+ percentile every single season for passing accuracy (Wijnaldum was mostly 97+!). Henderson was the most ambitious of the three but even he was in the high 70s. It was their fullbacks that were able to play the creative lower percentage passes.

In contrast, our midfield three in its entirety (Casemiro; Fernandes; and the third - be it Eriksen or potentially Mount) are all midfielders in the bottom 30 percentile for passing accuracy. We’re turnover central in the middle of the pitch. Until we fix that, we don't really go from averaging 53% possession a game to the 60% that the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool (and now Brighton) seem to average.
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Yeah our ball retention is diabolical
 
When was the last time our purchases made sense?

From Antony, Sancho, Maguire, even Bruno doesnt made much sense but luckily it works out.

We dont really make a lot of sense in our purchases post SAF.
 
I think it only doesn't make sense because OP is looking at our current options (Eriksen and Casemiro) and thinking the natural thing to do is upgrade/support those options with something similar.

But in truth we don't really know what Ten Hag's thought process is. I wouldn't really say Casemiro and Eriksen were a success beyond any criticism, as a pairing it had it's flaws. He may be trying to reimagine the balance we have. Either to have different options or to play a different way entirely.
 
sullydnl said:
I'm sure part of the reason for the seemingly eclectic mix of names we've been linked with is that we're not actually all that interested in all of those players and some of those stories are substance-less.

The only thing we can safely say is that Mount is the first choice pick for midfield. What profile of player we target beyond that Christ knows.
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This is probably the truth. We know ETH loves FdJ and there is at least real interest in Mount although it’s clear we’re not moving heaven and earth to get him immediately. The rest is all is a bit vague and most likely just is getting linked to players other clubs are linked to in order to make a more interesting headline.
 
DWelbz19 said:
I agree with most of what you’re saying here — both in terms of the profile of midfielder we seem interested in, and the idea that a counter pressing team doesn't necessarily mean you can't have high amounts of possession.

However, I think the biggest difference between us and Klopp's Liverpool is ball retention, particularly in midfield. I remember having a quick glance at the stats and the Liverpool side since 2018ish: Wijnaldum, Fabinho, and Henderson in that 2018-21 period were mostly water carriers with their passing. Wijnaldum and Fabinho were in the top 90+ percentile every single season for passing accuracy (Wijnaldum was mostly 97+!). Henderson was the most ambitious of the three but even he was in the high 70s. It was their fullbacks that were able to play the creative lower percentage passes.

In contrast, our midfield three in its entirety (Casemiro; Fernandes; and the third - be it Eriksen or potentially Mount) are all midfielders in the bottom 30 percentile for passing accuracy. We’re turnover central in the middle of the pitch. Until we fix that, we don't really go from averaging 53% possession a game to the 60% that the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool (and now Brighton) seem to average.
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Aye, that's a very fair point.
 
FrankWhite said:
Agreed, Which one these targets do you think fits this mould? Probably only FDJ and I'm not convinced we're linked to him. Makes wonder if we've going to play differently next year.
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FDJ is the ideal 8 for us so no surprise we've been batting our eyelashes at him for 2 years now. But this is why Caicedo is my favorite midfield target and has been for a while. Excellent with the ball at his feet, very good progressive passer while being dynamite defensively. We seem to be more interested in Mount, which has confounded me as aside from his excellent pressing and good play in half spaces he doesn't fit into any real midfield 3, much less one with two other players that are also quite loose in possession.

I've been banging the drum that we need someone to be able to rotate with Casemiro which is also where Caicedo helps. We can talk about Mount or other CM targets all we want, but if we roll into next season with a single 30 year old DM we are going to fall apart in any game he misses just like we did this year. Our record and metrics without Case was quite shocking this year.
 
For me most midfielders make sense if it means no more McTominay and Fred.
 
If chasing free deals like Eriksen or Rabiot isn't working to the fullest, then by all means change the profile altogether.

Caicedo and Lavia, 21 and 19 years old. Profile of players that could grow into this team with likes of Garnacho, Mainoo, Amad, Facundo, Ferguson or Hojlund.

Same for defense and attack.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Honestly, outside of Frenkie, I don't think Hag has any interest in a high volume build-up passing midfielder profile. We certainly haven't had any strong links to any, and the midfielders we've signed since his arrival don't suggest much of a want: Casemiro (midfield destroyer 6 with an ambitious forward pass), Eriksen (a no.10 masquerading as a no.8, let's be honest) and Sabitzer on loan (all action attacking midfielder who does his best work up the pitch off the ball than on it).

Our main interest in midfield is now again Mount, who is a bit of a halfway house between Sabitzer and Eriksen.

Not really sure what the main blueprint is here, because to me the most ideal profile is what @Skills says in post 1. Hag must really want to play deep into this counter-attacking, transition based football.
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I don't think it's that he doesn't have any interest, it's just that there aren't any proven options of that profile available, who meet his required standard for that role. I also don't think that the profile of players we've signed so far, says anything about what kind of team he wants us develop into. Making conclusions that he wants us to play a deep line, based on last season, when he quite clearly wants to move on from de Gea, also seems a bit premature.
 
De Jong is obviously the player we need above all else along with a centre forward who scores goals.

If we get just those two players we would become arguably capable of competing for big trophies. Maybe a new keeper as well.

Get rid of Fred and McTomminay and bring in some young talent as well would be a good summer.
 
Son said:
De Jong is obviously the player we need above all else along with a centre forward who scores goals.

If we get just those two players we would become arguably capable of competing for big trophies. Maybe a new keeper as well.

Get rid of Fred and McTomminay and bring in some young talent as well would be a good summer.
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Pity he won't move here no matter what we offer
 
Van Piorsing said:
If chasing free deals like Eriksen or Rabiot isn't working to the fullest, then by all means change the profile altogether.

Caicedo and Lavia, 21 and 19 years old. Profile of players that could grow into this team with likes of Garnacho, Mainoo, Amad, Facundo, Ferguson or Hojlund.

Same for defense and attack.
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Lavia thing has no legs whatsoever
 
Football managers are much more flexible, yes the profile of players are not exactly same and football managers adapt and make adjustments based on the players we are signing.

Just take City as example, they wanted to sign Kane, it failed and they signed Haaland next season, 2 profiles couldn't have been more different. They wanted to sign Sanchez, when the move failed they tried to sign Mahrez in the same window and then signed him in the summer window.

Even Ruben Dias wasn't their first choice target, IIRC they wanted Koulibaly and other CB before. I wouldn't say Ruben Dias is similar profile to Koulibaly. Even last season they wanted to sign Cucurella and ended up signing Akanji and other young LB.

Manager are much more flexible and open minded about the strengths of players and what they can bring to the team.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
FDJ is the ideal 8 for us so no surprise we've been batting our eyelashes at him for 2 years now. But this is why Caicedo is my favorite midfield target and has been for a while. Excellent with the ball at his feet, very good progressive passer while being dynamite defensively. We seem to be more interested in Mount, which has confounded me as aside from his excellent pressing and good play in half spaces he doesn't fit into any real midfield 3, much less one with two other players that are also quite loose in possession.

I've been banging the drum that we need someone to be able to rotate with Casemiro which is also where Caicedo helps. We can talk about Mount or other CM targets all we want, but if we roll into next season with a single 30 year old DM we are going to fall apart in any game he misses just like we did this year. Our record and metrics without Case was quite shocking this year.
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Spot on. Mason Mount has not made much sense to me, Caicedo does. Perhaps budget is limiting us. But lets see what ETH is cooking.

But yeah completely agreed, we need a backup to Casemiro. Maybe someone on the cheap like Andre or Varela.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Spot on. Mason Mount has not made much sense to me, Caicedo does. Perhaps budget is limiting us. But lets see what ETH is cooking.

But yeah completely agreed, we need a backup to Casemiro. Maybe someone on the cheap like Andre or Varela.
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I agree, but stll see us signing only one midfielder.

If that s the case the profle is strange as we are linked wth everyone which could be bs in a lot of cases, only one factual so far s Mount as we have bid.

To me dfferent era, but people are obsessed wth ball retenton players, playmakers or press resstant players....what our mdfeld lacks to me is a proper all round box to box midfelder. thnk pre Ten Hag we have tred to do that wth Fred, McTomnay and Pogba and none have been that great. But an nce/Robson/Keane type is really what we need, people forget that these players n there tme techncally were all good at passng and carryng the balldefendng and attackng.

Our midfeld was often over ran last season, even wth Casemero n the big games, I dont see a Mount like signng changng that much only in the player havng more legs thatn Erksen. Someone lke Caicedo gives us so much more strength and energy defensvely as well as a lot of the offensve qualtes of someone lke Mount.

Feels to me, we are simply tryng to upgrade on Eriksen wth a smlar player with more legs, free or not, that has to make you queston f Eriksen was actually a good signng as really we are looking to replace him 12months on.....another cm to add to several need replacng
 
I think the profile of midfielder we are looking for is "value". The two players we have spoken with so far are Mount and Rabiot, both running down their contracts. The other players we've been linked with are drastically more expensive. I would be amazed if we spent big in midfield.
 


So 2 contrasting profiles targeted by City. It is very common thing in football.
 
jesperjaap said:
I agree, but stll see us signing only one midfielder.

If that s the case the profle is strange as we are linked wth everyone which could be bs in a lot of cases, only one factual so far s Mount as we have bid.

To me dfferent era, but people are obsessed wth ball retenton players, playmakers or press resstant players....what our mdfeld lacks to me is a proper all round box to box midfelder. thnk pre Ten Hag we have tred to do that wth Fred, McTomnay and Pogba and none have been that great. But an nce/Robson/Keane type is really what we need, people forget that these players n there tme techncally were all good at passng and carryng the balldefendng and attackng.

Our midfeld was often over ran last season, even wth Casemero n the big games, I dont see a Mount like signng changng that much only in the player havng more legs thatn Erksen. Someone lke Caicedo gives us so much more strength and energy defensvely as well as a lot of the offensve qualtes of someone lke Mount.

Feels to me, we are simply tryng to upgrade on Eriksen wth a smlar player with more legs, free or not, that has to make you queston f Eriksen was actually a good signng as really we are looking to replace him 12months on.....another cm to add to several need replacng
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Yeah Caicedo offer us more flexibility in terms of Casa's position too,however having someone like Mount with assists and goals is useful as well.
 
croadyman said:
Pity he won't move here no matter what we offer
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I wouldn’t rule it out. Barcelona are a clown show behind the scenes. That’s the reason he’d leave and I doubt any player wouldn’t want to come here.

He had to say certain things to Barcelona as they owe him about 15 million. I mean if someone had 15m of my money I’d keep them sweet too until I got it.
 
Just seen this:
Tries to explains why Mount is being looked at. It's an interesting take.
 
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