Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position

[Leftback99]

Normally I'm all in for sacking a manager for the sake of a new manager bounce, but the signings we've made for the last 2 years are so fecking baffling that I'm not even hoping for much there.

I genuinely think this is the worst squad we've managed to assemble in the last decade - and the last 2 summer transfer windows have set us back about 3 years.

I don't even have any hope under a new permanent regime as well, because it feels like we've completely emptied the coffers now.

Probably about right. We've never had less goal threat in attack or a weaker team physically which is key for PL football. The defence is as brittle as ever. I'd take Brighton's attacking options over ours any day.

A new manager would struggle to make anything of it. It's been built specifically for what Ten Hag wanted and has big flaws for PL football.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

The fact that we didn't change formation until we were 3 down was ridiculous

I was thinking the same when he took Rasmuss off. Why not keep two strikers strikers on, change the formation, we are losing badly at home after all.
And then after the game, ‘we played well” he always seems say that after a loss. I hope it’s not a deluded ego thing.

 

[RedUnited86]

I think this is the beginning of a fairly long ending for him. He won't go in the blink of an eye, it's probably going to be death by a thousand cuts scenario - and he'll go around February or March next year.

Even if we put to one side our dismal away form against teams in the top half of the table (which shouldn't be ignored, there's teams with 1/5 of our resources who have more to show on their travels against these teams than we do) he's just not been very good at squad building, and it's now showing. He ability to change a match in our favour seems non-existent too. Some of his decisions are just bloody odd.

Is De Jong the only player in Europe capable of playing the managers particular brand of football? And how do you pivot from De Jong to Casemiro, two completely different midfielders? To me, that shows he either doesn't know what he's looking for, or he seriously misunderstands the capabilities of the players he's targeting. It's very similar to the Mount signing. Not a single Chelsea supporter has anything positive to say about Mount in the # 8 position, yet he was our priority midfield signing?

Onana - you have one of, if not the best ball playing goalkeepers at your disposal. You then come out and say you want your team to become the best transitional team in the world. What an absolute waste. Onana can spray balls around which will help, but his bread and butter is high volume recycling of possession to build out from the back. We were trying to do that all last season with De Gea. Now that we have a goalkeeper that's capable of doing it, we abandon it?

The full-back positions are a mess, with Shaw, who is tidy on the ball but offers no threat going forward and lapses of concentration at the back, the best of the lot. You have a centre-back pairing who at best are going to play 50% of available games together. A midfield of Casemiro and Eriksen (both 31) and we wonder why our midfield lacks legs, pace and physicality. A winger who knows he'll always get selected regardless of his performance (Antony or Rashford, take your pick) and a striker who's more comfortable being injured than he is on the pitch.

If you aren't buying Real Madrid and Chelsea cast offs and are sensible, you can assemble a fairly decent and balanced squad with £400 million. We've not really got going ever since the League Cup win, and there's an argument to be had that the longer Ten Hag is here, the worse we're looking. The players look lost, defence is at sea, attackers devoid of any real ideas and couldn't finish if their lives depended on it.

We've seen what happens when these players decide enough is enough and down tools. They've already shown a complete lack of character and fight in the numerous spankings away from Old Trafford, and I think he's not far away from losing them completely. Of course, I'd rather get rid of the lazy wasters first, but that's never going to happen.

 

[Fortitude]

Again, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with your perspective. I think he is using the games to drill the rules and the system.

Risky and perhaps foolish but if we believe, as has been reported often, that he is meticulous in everything he does, it is likely he has considered most of the eventualities. Seems he has a favoured course and that he values the progression of the system above individual results at this stage.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the Bayern game because we can’t afford to lose a few games in the CL. If he remains tied to his principles there and shows no pragmatism then I think your take will gain even more weight.

Yes. I hope we’re not about to get rolled in the CL, but time will tell. There’ll be no excuse to look amateurish in that game. He definitely needs to show some coaching ability irrespective of if his initial plan isn’t working out.

 

[BluesJr]

His job is to implement a system that gives us the best chance of winning with the players we have. He has a good win percentage and that does not have to equal dominating possession.

This kind of mindset will never learn.

 

[norm87cro]

Look I dont want him to get the sack just yet but Ive talked about the lack of physical presence in this team especially in the CB position.

 

[MooseTheMooche]

Honestly, I was never a fan of his appointment, but I thought “let’s give this guy a chance, maybe there’s something that I don’t know.” But after yesterday’s game I don’t think he’s up to the job. Our football is a good reflection of his charisma, i.e. boring as hell. On the pitch we’re absolutely clueless, and Brighton’s third goal only proved that. We were running around like idiots, and they played the ball through us so easily that I don’t think they even shifted to the second gear. It was just so easy. Mentally we’re so fragile that after we lose a goal, I know we’re not winning the game. The forest game was an obvious exception, but as a rule of thumb, when we concede (usually in the early stages of the game) it’s done. One thing I don’t get is Ten Hag’s stubbornness, is this a Dutch thing or what? Van gaal was very similar when it came to favouring certain players, even when they were total dogshit (Fellaini), Ten Hag’s the same when it comes to Antony. All in all, the writing is on the wall, but as per usual we are going to act once the chances for top4 spot are gone.

 

[Melville Red]

Onana, Martinez, Van De Beek, Antony. All played for Ajax sides who were comfortable in possession in Europe.

Malacia. Feyenoord were comfortable in possession, domainting Roma in the UECL final in 2022.

Casemiro. Lynchpin for Real Madrid dominating Europe on and off the ball.

Eriksen. Played in Spurs teams who were comfortable in possession.

Mount. Played in Chelsea teams who were comfortable in possession.

Sancho. Played in a Dortmund team who regularly dominated the ball.

Compare that to Jason Steele, Lamptey, Gross, Van De Hecke, Gilmour and Welbeck. Squad players who dominate the ball against EVERY Premier League opponent for Brighton bar City. You think our players can’t do the same with the right possession based coaching?

Pascal Gross can be coached to keep the ball but Bruno Fernandes can’t? It’s a joke.

I don’t think Ten Hag has shown he can do it in the PL.

Of course he can’t, that’s why we finished a credible third and won the League Cup last season.
FFS, are you seriously saying that you want a new manager now?

 

[NoLogo]

Not only get De zerbi, but also get a DoF and sporting director. Also, change ownership. Tactically de zerbi is better than ETH, but for long term planning, we also need to have the right structure in place. And I feel that United new project should evolve around the ideology we are seeing at Brighton, but at a higher level. I believe that it is only a deeper problem than the manager if we are looking at it long term. But, short term, a good manager can come in and change our style and performance

New structure in terms of recruitment and squad planning is imo the only thing that can save us. Brighton is a good example imo of where good work in these departments can get you. They were already good before de Zebri arrived, simply because they seem to have a coherent vision and a recruitment philosophy who fits to their philosophy. They then brought in a manager who fit in with that philosophy, which in return made it easier for the manger to succeed, because he already had the right players in his squad. Now the main problem for us is that we don't seem to have people in charge that are able to bring this kind of staff in, because it all starts with the Glazers, if they recruit a CEO who has no clue the rest of the staff might not have a clue either.

 

[zenith]

Let's stick with this one at least. We really need to trust someone with the rebuild and ETH has the tools more then any of our other managers post saf.

Discipline is the primary concern and he needs to ingrain that in the squad. Everything else will take off from there

 

[Rodgerzzz]

I've got a tingling suspicion that the **** of the manager's position at Utd extends to the people running the club, almost like they see the "manager" as an all seeing oracle that in their wisdom guides the football club forward. Arnold, Murtagh & co working for the needs of manager, rather than the other way around & everybody working for the club.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the reason we're seeing so many ex-ETH players arrive is because he's basically been left identify players himself. Not in the power grabbing "I want to do it my way" sense, more the "if I don't do it then who will?". He's always going to fall back on what he knows & trusts in that situation.

The club structure has been a complete failure here for the past 10 years, every "manager" that comes in the door, it's the same rinse & repeat cycle. History always repeats itself & here we go again, nobody is going to be a success here until something drastic is changed.

 

[el3mel]

Of course he can’t, that’s why we finished a credible third and won the League Cup last season.
FFS, are you seriously saying that you want a new manager now?

The continuous mentioning of the League Cup last season is becoming embarrassing. It's the weakest trophy in England and the strongest team we faced during that run was Newcastle. If anything it would have been ridiculous to not win it given our luck in the draw.

Previous managers had it tougher in cup competitions draws.

 

[edgecutter]

The issue is upstairs and always has been. ETH hasn't covered himself in glory but thus club is a basket case and no manager would be able to make it work. Until the leeches leave we're fecked.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Of course he can’t, that’s why we finished a credible third and won the League Cup last season.
FFS, are you seriously saying that you want a new manager now?

No. I am not saying that. I’d give him to the end of this season.

Removing results, the style of football that he has implemented isn’t sustainable long term. Every game we have played since the League Cup final has been a slog. It’s not nice to watch. Teams are always in with a chance against us if coached correctly.

It’s been over a year and he’s only improved one player in the squad (AWB). His coaching isn’t up to the elite level we need it to be so far.

 

[Escobar]

I have been thinking the same thing, how can he be blamed for the length and terms of contract of a player he never had a say in buying, no player is going to accept a transfer that takes them off the gravy train at OT, no-one is going to take a £100k a week pay cut.
Add to that injuries, and his choices become very limited, yes he could have played Pellestri, we don't watch him in training every day, there must be reasons why the likes of him and Hannibal don't start.

My own personal view is that there is still a culture in the dressing room that thinks it knows better than the manager, and certain players are willing to throw him under the bus because he is a disciplinarian.

Blame him for what he can influence. And those who want to fire him should know by now things will not improve much

 

[Skills]

I've got a tingling suspicion that the **** of the manager's position at Utd extends to the people running the club, almost like they see the "manager" as an all seeing oracle that in their wisdom guides the football club forward. Arnold, Murtagh & co working for the needs of manager, rather than the other way around & everybody working for the club.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the reason we're seeing so many ex-ETH players arrive is because he's basically been left identify players himself. Not in the power grabbing "I want to do it my way" sense, more the "if I don't do it then who will?". He's always going to fall back on what he knows & trusts in that situation.

The club structure has been a complete failure here for the past 10 years, every "manager" that comes in the door, it's the same rinse & repeat cycle. History always repeats itself & here we go again, nobody is going to be a success here until something drastic is changed.

Yup. Remember the one time the club tried to switch away from this strategy (Mourinho), the fanbase made the club into a toxic circus. So that permanently ended that trial for good. It's not worth it when the paying customers are so vehemently against it.

 

[Melville Red]

How do you get rid of a player who legally doesn't have to leave the terms of his contract if he's done nothing wrong?

Should have gone on a pre season tour to Greece, told the players to let their down, Harry would have lapped it up and history just might have repeated himself. Harry gets nicked, previous form meant that he is banged up with no bail, job done

 

[In Rainbows]

The continuous mentioning of the League Cup last season is becoming embarrassing. It's the weakest trophy in England and the strongest team we faced during that run was Newcastle. If anything it would have been ridiculous to not win it given our luck in the draw.

Previous managers had it tougher in cup competitions draws.

I mean you don't have to use trophies. Ten Hag got United to 3rd, which is better than what other managers did. The trophy is only used as an argument from people that say trophies are all that matters, because no manager had United in the top 4 and win a trophy in their first season.

Of course, all of that is irrelevant for people who are just not happy with the football played as evidence for future success, which all of the managers have failed at.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

The continuous mentioning of the League Cup last season is becoming embarrassing. It's the weakest trophy in England and the strongest team we faced during that run was Newcastle. If anything it would have been ridiculous to not win it given our luck in the draw.

Previous managers had it tougher in cup competitions draws.

Agree with this. Winning the League Cup was nice, but not a massive achievement.

 

[el3mel]

I mean you don't have to use trophies. Ten Hag got United to 3rd, which is better than what other managers did. The trophy is only used as an argument from people that say trophies are all that matters, because no manager had United in the top 4 and win a trophy in their first season.

The manager before him finished 2nd and 3rd and the one before that also finished 2nd and won 2 trophies and both are considered a miserable failure here, for God's sake, but for Ten Hag finishing top 4 and a trophy is considered an achievement worthy to be mentioned every few posts to remind us of them.

The reality is he hasn't done anything more than what the previous managers did : top 4 and a domestic cup. They all did that and even more.

 

[Melville Red]

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I think this is what he means when he says "players don't follow the plan". Just look at Rashford jogging around like it's a friendly. And I've seen many more of our players do that today as well.

He should have been subbed off after that and then shown and told exactly why he was subbed and to pull his finger out of his arse or else.

 

[DRJosh]

How many managers do we have to churn through before the realisation hits that the board and owners need clearing out first?

 

[Gordon S]

Keep since he is elite, but not a huge fan of his nostalgia recruitment. He is no dof. And seem purist to a fault, that will be his downfall.

He is?
He looks good, but nothing special. We have played 5 games so far and only won 2, and both times we were against the ropes just hanging on by the skin of our teeth. Wolves and Forest are most likely looking at relegation scraps this season but both teams came to OT and gave us a proper scare.
Last season was good all in all, but really nothing that made me feel that we had someone truly special on our hands.
He might still figure the PL out, what the hell do i know, but that elite tag seems a bit premature as of now imo.

 

[NZT-One]

That's the problem. We've only heard about it. Can't think of a game where he's won the tactical battle by responding to a manager's changes.

Even against Brighton, we surprised them for 20 minutes, but once they figured us out, ETH had no response. Similar to Spurs. Once they got on top after 20 minutes or so, we barely had a sniff. Arsenal away, we had to play our hearts out just to target a smash and grab. Where are these famed in-game tactical adjustments?

If the issue is that we don't have the players who can carry two plans in their brains or legs, then he should say that and be honest about which of his own signings are part of this problem.

I meant "heard about it" in analysis videos or posts from people I consider as more capable on having an opinion than me (and lets be serious here, the majority of CAF posters). I'll happily agree that ingame adjustments do not seem to his strength but to me, it feels a little too early to call it a weakness.

Real time coaching is something that has made leaps and bounds forward these past few years. Let’s be honest and say Klopp and Pep turned this aspect of the game on its head. You have to be able to make the right changes at the right times or you’ll be swamped before you know it. I think that’s been a massive cultural shock to ten Hag as they are way behind the PL elsewhere in regards to this.
He cannot be the stuttering general watching his troops getting flayed for too long a period (contextually) before making a deviation from what might have been a solid plan. Guess what? That plan didn’t work out; make a new one, sofort, or perish.

You certainly have a point, but I think, your equasion leaves out a few factors. How often has he said, that he is wondering about what we are doing and that this isn't what we are trying to do in training? And also: Klopp and Pep and probably even De Zerbi now have the advantage of having a great plan A. In games, this doesn't work, the opposition probably adjusted really well or really suprisingly. So yes, the managers I mentioned are really good in adjusting it and yes, without this trait, ETH might not reach the highest heights of coach-dom but he also is at a different point of the journey with his players.

As you say "making a deviation from what might have been a solid plan" - I am not sure, we have that solid plan. And I also think, he already showed, that he can be pragmatic. He switched comlpetely last season after the first two games. He switched just yesterday. So it isn't like he isn't trying - but we have to walk a very thin line - when you don't have a working plan A, what are you doing? Jumping on plan B or try to make plan A work? I don't have an answer for it. My stance is, if ETH thinks plan A makes sense and he planned, recruited and set up pre-season trainings for it, then it probably is worth a shot looking at the plan in action. And I think, many are a little harsh in calling it a failure already. We haven't really seen it with all pieces in play. I think, the worst outcome could be that ETH throws his ideas into the bin to go for some temporary solution that ultimately also will not make us reach the highest heights only for him to get the sack without even really going for what he thinks he is standing for...

It’s not a coincidence when you see a Klopp side turn the tide in that way that has you turn the channel as that temporary Schadenfreude dissipates, nor how a Pep team amps up as a game goes on. The tactical modifications always have their say, so sitting on your hands for too long has that equal and disparate affect… where games get farther and farther away from you, which is what we’re becoming increasingly familiar with. Those coulda wouldas happening too often points to tactical failings not bad luck.

I fully agree here. Only thing to note is that this is a spectrum, Pep and Klopp are really good at it. I think, this was also something Mou was really good at. LVG not so much, Ole as well. But as of now, I am not sure, where to place ETH. I'll happily agree that he doesn't seem to be too close to Pep and Klopp. But I think it is too early to put him next to LVG. He might also be somewhere in between, where it isn't a strength but also not a weakness.

I think ten Hag has to show he has the capacity to get with the program, because this isn’t a one or two team league where you can bludgeon your way through via superior players and doses of stubbornness when others doubt you. We need to see tactical nuance and the ability to readjust and execute a new plan that has its own solidity over heart and passion, which really isn’t that great a currency when so many teams already have bags of it by default.

Harsh but true.

 

[Roboc7]

How many managers do we have to churn through before the realisation hits that the board and owners need clearing out first?

I think most people do believe that but the owners and the leadership don’t change, Woodward would still be where if he hadn’t chosen to leave.

The manager is the only role of significance where anyone is held accountable and that the owners are willing to change. Until the owners sell up and all the dross like Arnold and Murtough go with them it won’t make much difference who the manager is.

 

[RedUnited86]

It says more about ETH than Rashford.

I have to agree with this.

Rashford's work ethic is a disgrace, I think we all know that by now. It initially has to come from the player, the player has to want to do it. If he doesn't, then the manager needs to make it clear in no uncertain terms, that it's not an option and it's not up for discussion. If you're on the pitch, you work your socks off, especially when the opposition player is nonchalantly dribbling with the ball not two yards from you.

If you still refuse to work hard, you don't play. Simple. Although it only seems to apply for some players and not others.

 

[Melville Red]

How many managers do we have to churn through before the realisation hits that the board and owners need clearing out first?

I think we all know that, bugger we can do about that though.
Do you think the banks will call in the loans if Utd were to get relegated? Our income would plummet, now that will force the leaches out, perhaps we are witnessing a long drawn out plan.
Just like under the Doch we would bounce back stronger than ever.

 

[Morpheus 7]

Aye I'm sure sacking the manager would solve all the problems. Really is ridiculous, if we want to properly progress, we know what needs to happen. Been waiting since last November.

 

[Cassidy]

This kind of mindset will never learn.

Liverpool under Klopp did not dominate possession and won a league and UCL but I guess my mindset will never learn

The idea we have to play like City to win is silly

ETH has to do better but he does not have to play possession football if he does not want to.

 

[BluesJr]

Liverpool under Klopp did not dominate possession and won a league and UCL but I guess my mindset will never learn

The idea we have to play like City to win is silly

Liverpool played with an intensity after like 5 games we could only dream of. The reality is he’s just not coaching the team well enough. The Brighton squad cost like £20m yesterday. We play some of the worst football in the league after a more than a year in charge. It isn’t good enough.

 

[Matt851]

Liverpool under Klopp did not dominate possession and won a league and UCL but I guess my mindset will never learn

The idea we have to play like City to win is silly

ETH has to do better but he does not have to play possession football if he does not want to.

But liverpool had a clear style of play and it enabled them to score a lot of goals. We have no clue in terms of what to do when in possession of the ball, so have clearly deserves criticism for that

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Liverpool under Klopp did not dominate possession and won a league and UCL but I guess my mindset will never learn

The idea we have to play like City to win is silly

ETH has to do better but he does not have to play possession football if he does not want to.

Liverpool dominated possession against every team bar City in 18/19, 19/20 and 21/22 (Klopp’s best seasons).

 

[m1tch]

I'm a bit unsure about this "he's been asked to instill standards and discipline" stuff. A side from Rangnick, who we just have to discount from serious conversation, Ole will have had high standards but probably the light on discipline, Mourinho and LVG would have had tried to instill high levels of discipline.
None of them have worked out.

The players are the reason, we replaced bad apples with bad apples, mentality deficient with mentality deficient, past their best with past their best, players that weren't capable of stepping up a level with players that won't be capable of stepping up a level, etc.

It certainly won't be the fans that put pressure on the club to sack ten hag, it'll be the players that do it, just like they always do.

 

[Cassidy]

Liverpool played with an intensity after like 5 games we could only dream of. The reality is he’s just not coaching the team well enough. The Brighton squad cost like £20m yesterday. We play some of the worst football in the league after a more than a year in charge. It isn’t good enough.

Hes not the first manager not to get certain United players to play with intensity. Like I said though he needs to do better

 

[Cassidy]

Liverpool dominated possession against every team bar City in 18/19, 19/20 and 21/22 (Klopp’s best seasons).

They did not play possession football they played transition football

 

[Escobar]

He should have been subbed off after that and then shown and told exactly why he was subbed and to pull his finger out of his arse or else.

Agreed, that works with a functioning squad. Our rebuild is pathetic thiugh

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

They did not play possession football they played transition football

Source: https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2021-2022

 

[Blood Mage]

Let the new owners sack him if things don't improve after the Glazers feck off. The sale of the club has to take priority over anything else right now.

Sack him and bring in de Zerbi

De Zerbi would struggle with these players. We are devoid of technical ability, athleticism and press resistance.

 

[BluesJr]

They did not play possession football they played transition football

The stats don’t lie.

 

[Escobar]

Hes not the first manager not to get certain United players to play with intensity. Like I said though he needs to do better

He stopped benching players who cnnot be arsed. Bruno, Rashy, Casemiro, all should not be starting. Once he gets tough again, things will improve