ETH on United philosophy: “Built a side to play direct football”… “Impossible to play like Ajax”

[Slevs]

Is he wrong?

 

[gajender]

Not if you know what you're watching and are capable of judging the progression of a team based on how they setup/play - rather than only results and/or what the media say.



I have said time and time again, my problem with ETH isn't the results, it's his complete and utter failure to create a cohesive unit. I have watched 18-months of variations on his football ideas and I'm still not clear what they are.

Look I completely agree with your assessment of United Under Ten Hag but your Quote about Arsenal and Arteta was as generic as it could be and though I might be mistaken or completely wrong but I think you kind of defended Ten Hag and were Pro Ten Hag not that long ago .

 

[FortBoyard]

Assume it’s a misquote and he meant “built a side to play dire football”

 

[Thiagoal]

So he bought players like Onana, Martinez and Antony (all players that played possession based football at Ajax) to play a style totally different and chaotic? Sorry but I’m not buying that at all

 

[roonster09]

That's really dumb excuse to give. He had 3 windows and enough money to shape his starting 11.

 

[RussellWilson]

ETH got a lot of the players he wanted, which shows that the idea "every in" was fecked up by someone is wrong.

I guess what you are saying is that we should have overidden his wish for control over transfers.

Yes, like every other top club is run.

A managers job isn't to scout and find the right players.

 

[RussellWilson]

When Klopp came he conceded a bunch and everyone said his style of play isn't suited but eventually worked with the right recruitment

But notice how it was his style of play that people said didn't work. ETH has provided 0 style of play since the cup final and he has spent a lot of money on signings who look just as clueless as the legacy players he inherited

He clearly has tried to implement a style. We are close to top of the league in high turn overs.

Can argue it hasn't been effective but to say he hasn't tried to implement a style is disingenuous.

I'd argue its been ineffective because of injuries to key players, its very early in its implementation and we haven't signed the right players.

The argument by most seems to be he hasn't implemented anything. That's wrong.

 

[dinostar77]

 

[ayushreddevil9]

He clearly has tried to implement a style. We are close to top of the league in high turn overs.

Can argue it hasn't been effective but to say he hasn't tried to implement a style is disingenuous.

I'd argue its been ineffective because of injuries to key players, its very early in its implementation and we haven't signed the right players.

The argument by most seems to be he hasn't implemented anything. That's wrong.

I watch utd and see a set of individuals. Not really sure what style you are seeing. We look abysmal and rudderless.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

It’s ridiculous. He is not even trying to play better football and is just focussed on transitions, his playing rules and some small chances they get in a game. Last year with Rashford scoring a lot and Martinez and Casemiro playing well in defence and midfield it looked okay but once you lose players or they loss form it’s total shit.

He bought Onana, Martinez and Antony from his Ajax team and bought Mount who he also wanted at Ajax. That’s already almost 40% of the team he can play like Ajax, if he keeps them fit. Eriksen played at Ajax, Donny played at Ajax in the Ten Hag team that made the Champions League semi finals. Varane and Casemiro are used to playing better football at Real, so that’s more than half the team. Fernandes plays better at Portugal. He has some talented youngsters who he can teach anything.

It looks like Ten Hag is not even trying anymore and is just waiting to get sacked. This is the beginning of the end for him.

 

[Cassidy]

So how long do Bruno and rashford have to stink the place out before they get dropped?
It’s already been 10+ games for the pair of them.
This is not a meritocracy at the moment.
And it will kill ETH if he sticks with it.

Not a question I can answer, but its not the same as what people are calling favoritism, previously your best performers earned leeway its the same with most managers.
Personally I would drop Bruno now, but not Rashford, although I would switch him to the RW

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

And Klopp took time to implement and get success while also being back by a high quality data driven recruitment team finding many gems.

Eth is supported by Murtough and Fletcher and Glazers fecking up every in and out the club do.

Klopp also had that Liverpool team pressing like their hair was on fire a month into the job while playing exciting stuff going forward. They’d get twatted at times but you could see the ideas almost immediately

 

[Cassidy]

Well why don't you educate me as you think you know it all. Why don't you tell me how they all played? You obviously know. You seriously trying to suggest Bayern II wouldn't have played a similar style to how he played at Ajax considering it was under Pep?

You haven't a clue what the plan is anymore than the rest of us, so stop pretending you do and acting like the guy with all the answers.

Except for what ETH said when he first signed and what he has said multiple times after. The plan is clear

 

[Cassidy]

So basically fans are stupid to expect him to implement the Ajax system here. I think most wanted him here because of that style. And rightly so, most should be disappointed.

Its silly to be angry when he has said on multiple occasions that he wouldn't be playing that style (including when he first joined)

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Not a question I can answer, but its not the same as what people are calling favoritism, previously your best performers earned leeway its the same with most managers.
Personally I would drop Bruno now, but not Rashford, although I would switch him to the RW

It’s the most obvious adjustment in the world that the guy refuses to do. Stick Rashford on the right where he can simplify his game a bit, have Garnacho on the left, and bench Bruno for Mount/Mejbri/Amrabat. At the very least that lineup would actually be dangerous on the break and you wouldn’t have McTominay or Eriksen losing runners every 2 seconds trotting around.

 

[Cassidy]

The issue isn't that he wants to play this way, the issue is he's completely clueless in how to execute said vision. If he wanted to play in that Liverpool/Klopp style, he needed to completely sell out for pace and power in the transfer market. But he didn't do that at all, besides Hojlund all of his signings have largely been finesse/technical style players that would suggest fitting better into a more possession oriented team.

That is your opinion, I don't agree

 

[Cassidy]

If that's true then the glaring problem with that is that it's an experiment. Good managers like Klopp and Pep came in with a proven style and vision and the clubs fell in line with that vision. Sure they have adapted their styles but only variations of their philosophies. They didn't just start playing a completely different style. Would Barca bring in Conte and tell him to play tiki taka football? Would you bring in Mourinho and expect high pressing football? It's fkn nuts to do so. And on top of it all he bought half his Ajax team. Why? So he thought I know players who play the Ajax style well but I'll bring them to United to see if they can play transition football? Make that make sense.
It's all nice when you hear he wants to play like Klopp but if he did then he's doing it all wrong. Klopp has a 3 in midfield. Players that can pass. Dynamic attacking fullbacks. Wingers that can go both ways and cross. It's night and day. It's nothing like Klopps side.

Its not an experiment, he has played that way before

 

[Cassidy]

It’s the most obvious adjustment in the world that the guy refuses to do. Stick Rashford on the right where he can simplify his game a bit, have Garnacho on the left, and bench Bruno for Mount/Mejbri/Amrabat. At the very least that lineup would actually be dangerous on the break and you wouldn’t have McTominay or Eriksen losing runners every 2 seconds trotting around.

Rashford doesn't like playing RW and we have seen this over the years, He obviously has tried starting Garnacho this season on a few occasions already and has reservations.
My issue with him more is that he doesn't stick with it long enough to play alternatives into form, however you could argue he is trying to play known quantities he trusts into form.
That is my gripe with him, its not an easy position to be in right now, given he's already dropped influential players in the dressing room

My criticism of him is he should just bite the bullet more even if we lose games in the process

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

That is your opinion, I don't agree

Not really an opinion, the results and every underlying metric speak for themselves along with the players he’s brought in.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Its silly to be angry when he has said on multiple occasions that he wouldn't be playing that style (including when he first joined)

He didn't say anything about that before he joined right? Most fans wanted him for the work he did at Ajax. Regardless of what he said at Ajax or Utrecht, the fans wanted to see that style here. You can blame them for being ignorant but you can't blindfold yourself and believe that everyone knew this was coming. Thats why this is shocking statement for most. That's why this question was asked in the first place.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Rashford doesn't like playing RW and we have seen this over the years

He doesn’t really get the luxury of playing where he likes given what he’s served up this year, and you also stick him on his stronger crossing side with a true box striker. The entire point is Antony can’t start, so you need someone to move to the right.

 

[Cassidy]

Not really an opinion, the results and every underlying metric speak for themselves along with the players he’s brought in.

Well that is obviously not true given metrics around high turnovers and pressing this season. Results yes

 

[Cassidy]

He didn't say anything about that before he joined right? Most fans wanted him for the work he did at Ajax. Regardless of what he said at Ajax or Ultrecht, the fans wanted to see that style here. You can blame them for being ignorant but you can't blindfold yourself and believe that everyone knew this was coming.

He didn't say anything before he joined, he did say it when he first joined. He specifically said you have to look at the squad and what the club asks for then develop the style / play around that
Also fans wanting to see a style, well that's great, but unless the Technical Director has said this is what we want at United, its irrelevant to the manager's remit, because it's not set by the fans.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

He didn't say anything before he joined, he did say it when he first joined. He specifically said you have to look at the squad and what the club asks for then develop the style / play around that
Also fans wanting to see a style, well that's great, but unless the Technical Director has said this is what we want at United, its irrelevant to the manager's remit, because it's not set by the fans.

Not sure why you responded to what I said earlier because it seems you agree that fans wanted him here because of what he did at Ajax.

What he says/does after his appointment is irrelevant because thats not the time when fans are still clamoring for him. If I knew he would abandon everything good he did then I would have not wanted him here. I think I can say that for majority of other fans as well.

 

[Cassidy]

Not sure why you responded to what I said earlier because it seems you agree that fans wanted him here because of what he did at Ajax.

What he says/does after his appointment is irrelevant because thats not the time when fans are still clamoring for him. If I knew he would abandon everything good he did then I would have not wanted him here. I think I can say that for majority of other fans as well.

And what the fans want is irrelevant because the fans don't hire the manager...
Until the club directors, specifically Murtough also want what the fans want, by the way you don't speak for all fans, I'm pretty sure a lot of fans would be happy with a style similar to Klopps Liverpool.
However the point is until Murtough wants what the fans want, then its irrelevant, because Murtough hires the manager and sets the expectations and goals.

 

[FortunaUtd]

Ok, I have calmed down a bit. In the end, it is just words. And we are having the discussion right after the City game which is paradoxically the one game where you would not insist on possession and dominance.
The situation is a mess, key players continue to be out. Let us breathe and calm down.

The bottom line is that performances have to improve, whatever style Ten Hag proclaims.
Sacking him right now is no use, we have to let it go on for now. If the coming months confirm, as it is looking right now, that Ten Hag is not able to be as transformative to our football as we hoped and that he is also not able to find a successful and satisfying approach geared towards the squad (onto which he has had considerable input), we will need to hire a new manager.
But that might as well happen next summer, unless it stays quite as bad as now.

But it is clear that, sadly, the job he is doing right now, is not good enough.

 

[Zed is not dead]

Commented in other thread, but if he cant stand by his footballing principle he needs to get the axe. Do any of you think any decent CEO brought over to a save a faltering company gonna mold his vision to fit the faltering company views instead of applying his own principles ?

Interesting analogy because that’s exactly why most newly appointed CEOs fail, by trying to implement their vision without taking the reality of the company into account

 

[ayushreddevil9]

And what the fans want is irrelevant because the fans don't hire the manager...
Until the club directors, specifically Murtough also want what the fans want, by the way you don't speak for all fans, I'm pretty sure a lot of fans would be happy with a style similar to Klopps Liverpool.
However the point is until Murtough wants what the fans want, then its irrelevant, because Murtough hires the manager and sets the expectations and goals.

As I said, most fans wanted him here due to what they saw at Ajax and you feel free to dig up posts from the past if anyone claimed that that is what Liverpool was about. I would like to see. Also, did I ever claim that what fans want is relevant or not? Dont try to twist and turn the argument.

Comparing this tripe with Klopps Liverpool.. You are gonna point to turnovers and pressing stats shite to back up your claim but just watch a few games and tell me if its remotely close to what Klopp's Liverpool is like. None of the players have any clues on what to do, completely static off the ball and zero intelligence displayed by anyone out of possesion. Its like a set of individuals setup to win the "who is most clueless" award.

From the Rashford thread I remember you arguing just for the sake of it. I will leave it on here and soon your defense for this nonsense we are seeing week in week out will disappear too. Just give it time (giving time will actually pay off here)

 

[Lee565]

Mr. Rashford and Mr. Bruno. They don't like possession football, they want hoofball. Don't dare annoy them with tactics though, they'll just stop scoring.

No way, we are talking about a manager that has been given free reign to dump ronaldo out of the team and relegate sancho to not being involved at all, you can not tell me that all of a sudden that bruno and rashford can overrule ten hag.

 

[friendlytramp]

This is Murtogh hearing people say the style of football should be decided by the DoF and deciding he’s going to advocate counter attacking, direct, Manchester United football but without any consideration for recruiting manager or players to suit that style because he’s not a DoF he’s a cock.

 

[Mainoldo]

This is Murtogh hearing people say the style of football should be decided by the DoF and deciding he’s going to advocate counter attacking, direct, Manchester United football but without any consideration for recruiting manager or players to suit that style because he’s not a DoF he’s a cock.

Well he’ll be out a job soon considering all his mates are living/left.

 

[Smores]

He didn't say anything before he joined, he did say it when he first joined. He specifically said you have to look at the squad and what the club asks for then develop the style / play around that
Also fans wanting to see a style, well that's great, but unless the Technical Director has said this is what we want at United, its irrelevant to the manager's remit, because it's not set by the fans.

You seem to be making an odd attempt to gas light people by spamming. Ten Hag spoke plenty of wanting to play proactive, attacking football where we dominate the play in the opponents half. Murtough and Arnold praised Ajaxs football when he was first appointed and all the briefs they pushed were to modernise rather than go the Conte way.

Apart from high pressure we've achieved none of it and to pretend he wanted us to play direct is nonsense. Even in his first game at Brentford he called out going direct as a tactical option in specific moments I.e not our default.

 

[Cassidy]

As I said, most fans wanted him here due to what they saw at Ajax and you feel free to dig up posts from the past if anyone claimed that that is what Liverpool was about. I would like to see. Also, did I ever claim that what fans want is relevant or not? Dont try to twist and turn the argument.

Comparing this tripe with Klopps Liverpool.. You are gonna point to turnovers and pressing stats shite to back up your claim but just watch a few games and tell me if its remotely close to what Klopp's Liverpool is like. None of the players have any clues on what to do, completely static off the ball and zero intelligence displayed by anyone out of possesion. Its like a set of individuals setup to win the "who is most clueless" award.

From the Rashford thread I remember you arguing just for the sake of it. I will leave it on here and soon your defense for this nonsense we are seeing week in week out will disappear too. Just give it time (giving time will actually pay off here)

Who did that? First of all understand what is being said first. No where have I said he has been successful in implementing what he wants or even got near it, critique of the execution is separate from critiquing what he said.
Yes you specifically wanted him for football he played at Ajax, and I don't doubt others did too, but the fact is the club quite obviously didn't ask him to play that way and he didn't have the intention to play that way.
No one is turning an argument. He is not doing a good job with whatever style he is going for we can see that

 

[Cassidy]

You seem to be making an odd attempt to gas light people by spamming. Ten Hag spoke plenty of wanting to play proactive, attacking football where we dominate the play in the opponents half. Murtough and Arnold praised Ajaxs football when he was first appointed and all the briefs they pushed were to modernise rather than go the Conte way.

Apart from high pressure we've achieved none of it and to pretend he wanted us to play direct is nonsense. Even in his first game at Brentford he called out going direct as a tactical option in specific moments I.e not our default.

Which is exactly what he is trying to implement, that does not mean playing like Ajax though is it, you have to understand what he is saying.
People hearing the word transition and not understanding that transition is not always from deep, and is evident from what he says he wants to implement transition through a high press (which is dominating in opponents half)
Execution and implementation being poor does not mean the plan is a bad one.

No one is "gaslighting" two issues are clearly being conflated.

1. ETH has not been able to implement his plan effectively
2. ETH said he won't ever play like Ajax
3. ETH has also said in some instances he has to be more pragmatic (e.g when you have injuries etc)

Just be balanced

 

[Tibs]

What football are we trying to play?

We're dogshit as pressing.
We're dogshit at passing so can't keep possession.
We're dogshit at attacking.
We're dogshit at counter attacking.
We're dogshit at defending.

What are we moving towards? What's the plan?

 

[Amir]

Yes, like every other top club is run.

A managers job isn't to scout and find the right players.

Absolutely... But I think he also has to be convinced of that.

 

[Cassidy]

Absolutely... But I think he also has to be convinced of that.

He didn't at his previous club, there is a common denominator here and that's United

 

[Lentwood]

Look I completely agree with your assessment of United Under Ten Hag but your Quote about Arsenal and Arteta was as generic as it could be and though I might be mistaken or completely wrong but I think you kind of defended Ten Hag and were Pro Ten Hag not that long ago .

I picked one Arteta quote but I made 10+ others that were similar between 2020-2022.

You are absolutely correct that I was pro-ETH until recently, I have argued that our leadership team are a problem, that he's done a good job managing off the field issues, that we overperformed last season, that it was always going to be difficult this season because other teams have also strengthened and that we have been unlucky in several games.

The problem is, and the reason I have run out of patience is that all of those excuses/mitigating factors have been used to cover some pretty poor performances and some strange decisions from ETH and there's only so long I can survive on what basically at this point amounts to blind faith.

We lost 0-4 to Brentford. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. We got spanked 6-3 by City (lets face it, two late goals flattered us). We gave him the benefit of the doubt. We got humiliated 0-7 by Liverpool. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. We got taken apart away at Villa, never turned up. Our record against the top half of the table is appalling. Our away form is appalling. We have been consistently comprehensively out-thought and out-fought by Brighton. Our performances since about January have been unconvincing at best. Wout Weghorst. Throughout all of this, we gave him the benefit of the doubt.

We've started this season badly, the results are not there. OK, we're in transition, results aren't the most important thing right now - but are the performances there? Can we see a clear progression and a plan?

All I see is chaos and uncertainty. We think we know how ETH wants to play, then he does something completely the opposite. We're a transition team who don't want the ball but we don't sit deep and we don't press. Work that one out. I can't...

So yeah...I wanted ETH to get the job and I have supported him throughout - but my conclusion now, based on 18-months worth of evidence, is that he falls short of being an elite coach and we'd be better off trying again with someone like De Zerbi.

 

[Cassidy]

I picked one Arteta quote but I made 10+ others that were similar between 2020-2022.

You are absolutely correct that I was pro-ETH until recently, I have argued that our leadership team are a problem, that he's done a good job managing off the field issues, that we overperformed last season, that it was always going to be difficult this season because other teams have also strengthened and that we have been unlucky in several games.

The problem is, and the reason I have run out of patience is that all of those excuses/mitigating factors have been used to cover some pretty poor performances and some strange decisions from ETH.

We lost 0-4 to Brentford. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. We got spanked 6-3 by City (lets face it, two late goals flattered us). We gave him the benefit of the doubt. We got humiliated 0-7 by Liverpool. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. We got taken apart away at Villa, never turned up. Our record against the top half of the table is appalling. Our away form is appalling. We have been consistently comprehensively out-thought and out-fought by Brighton. Our performances since about January have been unconvincing at best. Wout Weghorst. Throughout all of this, we gave him the benefit of the doubt.

We've started this season badly, the results are not there. OK, we're in transition, results aren't the most important thing right now - but are the performances there? Can we see a clear progression and a plan?

All I see is chaos and uncertainty. We think we know how ETH wants to play, then he does something completely the opposite. We're a transition team who don't want the ball and don't press. Work that one out. I can't...

So yeah...I wanted ETH to get the job and I have supported him throughout - but my conclusion now, based on 18-months worth of evidence, is that he falls short of being an elite coach and we'd be better off trying again with someone like De Zerbi.

Mirrors the club and mirrors the current state of the squad
I think he showed promising signs last season and to me it was quite obvious this season was going to be a struggle after the summer.

That is not to absolve him, but I think its ok to see how things pan out when he can actually field a consistent back 4 and DM partnership to build from.

I'm more than ok with him being sacked end of the season if things don't turn around, but I think we are being very hasty with him in what has to be difficult circumstances

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Disagree with him. One thing Ralf Rangick was right about despite his terrible coaching spell here was that we needed a revolution. Building on what we had and attempting an evolution was never going to work because what we had actually wasn’t very good. If needed the whole team had to be torn up and replaced.

Seems to me as though this is a clear reason why he isn’t succeeding at United. We need a manager who realises that this DNA we seem to want to follow and the players we have who we are playing to suit, are simply not good enough. It’s a shame he hasn’t been the one to get it as I genuinely thought he was of that ilk.