We need a player to dictate play, and he's nowhere near that, we also need a midfielder who is press resistant, which he is very average as shown in the graph posted by someone else.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter andersj
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United's problems start at the front office and training ground, I don't think Rice would have fixed either
He would have been a great player in a sea of mediocrity. Not unlike Bruno Fernandes
It really isn't. His fans kept telling us he'd be an upgrade an Xhaka in all aspects. Turns out he wasn't. He instead has proved the long term defensive midfielder replacement for Partey. He is th exact same player he was at West Ham. Just in a match superior team. Kind of like what prime Casemiro was for Madrid. An attack minded defensive midfielder. Not a playmakin one.
It's been clear from the moment that we signed Havertz who Arteta explicitly stated he sees as a midfielder that Havertz would be the playing where Xhaka played last year. We even started the season with Partey in defense in order to play Rice in his best position.
He plays as our pivot and does it extremely well. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that the player at the base of a midfield trio containing Havertz and Odegaard is most focused on providing balance. He'd doing precisely what we've been crying out for. A "replacement for Partey" is fantastic asset to have.
Yes i agree, the point is a lot of people seemed to expect him to play more like a Ndidi, Palinha type, instead he's playing the same way he did at West Ham
He isn't a deep lying playmaker in the traditional sense (essentially, Zinchenko and Saliba are really the two deep playmakers in the side) but he's good enough with the ball to be a key cog right in the middle of a highly structured possession based team in which everything depends on being crisp and with good tempo. He has completed the second most passes, the second most progressive passes, he is our biggest threat to carry from deep, etc. And defensively he has been outstanding in terms of his ability to break up play, delay counters, and match athleticism and physicality with anybody in a very athletic, very physical league.
Rice may not be a freaky generational talent like Bellingham but he gives you a high performance level very consistently, is always available for 90 minutes, loves the club and has a great attitude, and will probably be a lynchpin of the side for the next 5-7 years. I00m was a bargain.
Which is absolutely fine, but absolutely not what most Arsenal fans were saying this summer after the transfer, and the fee, were announced.
It was expected he would go up a level from what he was at WHU, when he's been exactly the same player.If you were to conduct a poll for POTY just now, Rice's name would probably be on the shortlist.Which is absolutely fine, but absolutely not what most Arsenal fans were saying this summer after the transfer, and the fee, were announced.
Was he ever that close at West Ham?
He's been the best DM in the league this season, unquestionably.
I don't remember any players other than Messi, Iniesta and Xavi are press resistant. Not Odegaard, Rice, or Saka for sure.
This is entirely irrelevant to what I said.
This is all true except the bolded bit. 100M is a bargain if what you are getting is Rodri. Not Rice.
But I digress He is still NOT what a nimber of his fans claim he is. He isn't a playmaker of ANY kind. Neither will he ever develop into one. Which they repeatedly claimed he was and would "easily replicate" what a Xhaka offered to Arsenal. Yet all he has done is add a high end version of a completely different set of skill set. He is an attack minded top bracked pure DM. That is the one thing Id like staunchest his fans to admit.
TBF No one ever disputed he can become a lynch pin defensive midfielder of a possesion based side. We disputed rather that he could become THEE lynch pin of THAT possesion aka Rodri. I reason why many of us insisted unless a club like United was buying midfield controller in addition to him, spending the 100m Arsenal did to get him alongside Casemiro, to play behind a 10 of Bruno Fernandes' type would never have worked as satisfactorily as it has for Arsenal.
How can a player go up a level just after 2 months? Rice is still the same player. Just under a different coach and with a different team. He is not a raw talent with potential when Arsenal bought him. He is already an established player.Which is absolutely fine, but absolutely not what most Arsenal fans were saying this summer after the transfer, and the fee, were announced.
Hard to take this seriously.
All true yet with ZERO relevance to my argument.
May I ask which player in Aston Villa is press resistant in your opinion?
Douglas Luiz. Pau Torres. Zaniolo. Assuming Its okay to offer my opinion too.....
I would believe in general it is more down to Coach's tactic, positional play to offer passing lane/options than the player's "press resistant" ability.
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.
In my view press resistance entails an inherent postional sense and bravery that enables them to calmly receive and distribute balls under intense opponent pressure/hounding. In addition to it a player may or may not have wizadry on the ball
I honestly don’t understand what y’all are getting at.Which is absolutely fine, but absolutely not what most Arsenal fans were saying this summer after the transfer, and the fee, were announced.
“He’s not a Xhaka upgrade”.
We know.
“He like another Partey”.
We’re glad.
“He’s playing like he did at West Ham”.
Awesome, he was their best player and now he’s one of our best players.
We paid a record fee for player to anchor our midfield. He’s slotted straight in and done that role from literally his first game. He free us up to play two attacking midfielders next to him, allowing us to dominate games. He protects the back line so well that we have the best defence in the country.
Which player in the league who operates as the deepest midfielder would you say has been better than him since he joined?
I do agree, and I saw players like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi have the highly technical ability with the ball to get away from that.
It’s literally a direct answer to your argument, what are you talking about?
I still think he’s great and I’d have loved us to sign him. So many on here have a bizarre attitude towards him for whatever reason.
It isn't. My central argument is his fans wrongly claimes he'd replace and upgrade what Xhaka offered because he has the skill set to evolve into an 8.
You have instead confirmed Kai Havertz is who Arteta always sought to replace what Xhaka offered. That Rice has been excellent for your pivot and is a perfect replacement for Partey to have in hand. The two arguments are not connected.
Cool. IMO
The key about press resistant players is they next to never get dispossesed. Thus even if their range of passing isn't wide. Their pass accuracy statistics next to never dip below 85%. Even when their side is "under the cosh" or is using Dyche like tactics by design. Makelele (who I personally was never a huge fan of) was a prime example.
You keep saying “his fans”. Who is that? Do you mean Arsenal fans?
We signed Havertz before we signed Rice. And Arteta explicitly stated that Havertz was being signed for our midfield. You know, the midfield that already contains our captain, Odegaard?
Who are the masses of fans that thought we were paying a record fee to NOT play Rice in his best position? And even if these throngs of people did exist, why would their mistaken prediction matter?
Yes
Some serious underestimation of just how special he was at West Ham going on here
Pretty clearly as far as I've seen. Fans get fixated on certain types of players, and it's frankly odd. Not every DM needs to be Rodri. Probably why half the Caf thought Kante was overrated and worse than Herrera for all those years.
It’s even more perplexing when you have one of the greatest DMs of recent times playing United right now. Unfortunately, his legs now look to have gone, but judging by this thread, a lot of you would pass up the opportunity to sign a prime Casemiro for purely aesthetic reasons. He freed up Modric and Kroos to be the very best versions of themselves and weighed in with important contributions in clutch moments - much like Rice.
There more than one way to play. Also, Rice is one of the most progressive dribblers in the entire league. For all the may-saying about his press resistance, he carries the ball through midfield more than virtually anyone and is rarely dispossessed. Both are features of press resistance. He just doesn’t look as graceful as Busquets when he does it.
Massive addition for Arsenal. Complete midfield package and this season he's even added a few important goals to his name.
Many scoff at the 105m fee but I think it was money well spent given how inflated transfer costs are anyways. Most of us certainly wouldn't have batted an eye if we spent that much for him, especially given how injury free he is.
Many scoff at the 105m fee but I think it was money well spent given how inflated transfer costs are anyways. Most of us certainly wouldn't have batted an eye if we spent that much for him, especially given how injury free he is.
A top level DM needs to be in some ways like rodri.
Does he really need to "go up a level" if what he's doing now would make him absolutely one of the shortlisted players for POTY? He will definitely be in the team of the season.
That's a bit vague, but DMs with entirely different profiles to Rodri have succeeded and won major trophies and honors. Imagine if, 20 years ago, everyone said a DM needs to be like Makélélé.
Rodri and makekele have a lot in common. He was a more modern DM before his time.
United "management" somehow believed that 60m for Mount and 70m for Hojlund, and before that 80.5m for Antony (acc to Sky), were all better values than 105m for Rice.
They are all poor value tbh.
Without question. The thing about Rice is that he had already proven himself in the PL over time. Sure, we had Casemiro but we all knew this summer that Casemiro wouldn't be able to play 50 games this season. And sure, we all knew we had something special in Mainoo, but Mainoo is young and at least to me looks a bit more of an 8 than a 6 and together in Rice and Mainoo, with Casemiro rotating in when needed, would have been brilliant.
Instead, we got a backup for Bruno for 60m who quite honestly isn't that much of an upgrade on Van De Beek.
Rice although is expensive, but he is very consistent. So far he stays healthy and always available for selection as well. A good business overall.
That's irrelevant. We are talking about styles of play and it doesn't negate what I said.
Just to be clear, I don't defend our own choices.