Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[eire-red]

Wow!

I generally don't pay that much attention to xG on a game to game basis, because there are flaws to the methodology for one-off assessment.

30 games or so is a big enough sample to give an unbiased view as to where our performances suggest where we would expected to be in the table. Pretty shocking.

 

[hobbers]

I have never been a fan of ETH and did not want him to come to the club in the first place. But it seem strange to me that so many fans believed in him after last season, but now have lost faith in him because this season has been so poor.

It is clear that a number of things have happened which have ruined this season compared to last season, when we were better, and ETH can not be blamed for most of them:

What exactly is strange about believing in a manager when he's doing okay and ending that belief when he takes your club wildly backwards?

And you missed the most important thing that happened in between seasons. ETH changed the system from Oleball (conservative, 2 deeper midfielders, counter attack) to suicide HagBall™ (no midfield, uncoordinated pressing)

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Our collective fanbase might be the most lenient in all of sports.

 

[DSG]

Who are these 11 players?

We do need a better squad. Do you not think this season has highlighted the lack of physical and technical profiles in defence and midfield in particular?

Didn’t know you were waiting for this…

I was wrong. The number is 15. Roughly €450m spent. He had veto power, so he agreed to every single one. I’m assuming he also had a budget. I don’t think he has full accountability for the transfers, but certainly had to sign off on every single one.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/manchester-united/alletransfers/verein/985

Antony
Casemiro
Lisandro
Malacia
Weghorst
Sabitzer
Eriksen
Dubrovka

Hojlund
Mount
Onana
Amrabaat
Bayandir
Evans
Reguilon

I should add that we do need better players, no question. Do I think our current players can play better under a different manager? Absolutely. I think we need both a change in management and better attackers, midfielders and defenders to put in a truly authentic title challenge. No confidence that with a world class squad, Ten Hag could beat Arteta or Pep.

 

[DSG]

Most of our signings are loans or cheap punts.

400m worth of cheap punts… I’ll give you that haha.

I believe our net spend is 2nd highest in the PL behind Chelsea since ETH joined.

 

[croadyman]

Why do people keep saying who is viable to replace him etc? What do you mean by viable? We poached two highly regarded people from rival clubs, that before hand we wouldntve regarded as being viable appointment targets. We did it, apparently because we want the best in class and are determined to get the people in positions that can get us to the top again.
Why wouldn't we apply that same process with the managerial selection? ETH isnt the best and neither is Southgate...those aren't the only two options (a reference to, if its gonna be Southgate I'd rather stick with ETH!) That has been on here the last 2 weeks.

Yeah it's a very lazy narrative isn't it,surely someone with Berrada's knowledge gained from City can see past just British managers on their shortlist

 

[DSG]

There are certain things that just make no sense at all.

We've got three midfielders - Casemiro, Eriksen, and Amrabat - neither of whom he really wants to play because they are too slow for the erratic, transitional system he has us set up for.

But he decided to sell Fred, who has the best workrate of any midfielder we had. Also, Sabitzer was better off the ball than any of the other midfielders who make up a low intensity midfield. There's just no potential for winning back the ball and that's a huge part of the reason why we concede so many chances this season and why we're so easy to play against.

He's got to sign at least two players who are capable of winning duels either in midfield and defence. I've honestly not seen a United side get bullied as much as this one.

You know… I have thought this several times over the season. Fred was infuriating at times because he was frequently out of position as as a DM and was pretty wasteful in possession and wasn’t great under pressure.

BUT, he was an attack dog and excellent in supporting the high press. Like, really really good. And bringing him in in the 60th minute was very effective for us. And Ten Hag played him further up the pitch, which is where he did his best work.

 

[DSG]

Yeah it's a very lazy narrative isn't it,surely someone with Berrada's knowledge gained from City can see past just British managers on their shortlist

That’s the word. Lazy.

In any company, when there is an employee who is severely underperforming, you don’t keep them in the job. You sack them and find someone who can do the job. You may not get it right the first time at executive levels because the demands are so high, but you still make the move because you cannot continue to sink.

 

[croadyman]

You’re on a roll lad, another good post.

I’ve been saying it for months. You don’t keep a failing team member in a job because their replacement may not work out.

When you consider we aren’t getting Pep or Jurgen, any manager is ‘a risk’ but there’s very few managerial hires that just align. Liverpool started shit under Rodger’s which lined up with Klopp’s unemployment, it wasn’t some master plan.

If Ineos don’t deem this performance unacceptable this Summer then we’ll get what we deserve next year.

Yeah completely agree that's a superb post,shame fan channels like Howson and Utd View have clearly got their eyes closed to it

 

[croadyman]

I don’t think we need a new manager.

I think we need to shift out several players and bring more physically able players.



I don’t think INEOS will sack him and I think I’ll be proven right next season.

Well that immediately makes me lack faith if they can't see through the post match BS he spouts

 

[CtrlAltDeLigt]

You know… I have thought this several times over the season. Fred was infuriating at times because he was frequently out of position as as a DM and was pretty wasteful in possession and wasn’t great under pressure.

BUT, he was an attack dog and excellent in supporting the high press. Like, really really good. And bringing him in in the 60th minute was very effective for us. And Ten Hag played him further up the pitch, which is where he did his best work.

Agree, Fred leaving and thinking of replacing him with Mount is now not great business in hindsight.


Previous manageralso support the claim the Fred was an important part of the team, he’s like Ji Sung Park but without the skill on the ball.

But it’s telling that a Fred leaving has hampered our gameplay more than one can imagine.

 

[ohhrooney]

It’s going to hurt so bad when Pool get De Zerbi and continue to play beautiful football while winning trophies and we will either be stuck with this fraud or get Southgate.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Most of our signings are loans or cheap punts.

£450m worth of cheap punts.

That's some subtle trolling

 

[mattunited1978]

He's got to go

 

[JeffFromHK]

£450m worth of cheap punts.

That's some subtle trolling

Malacia 13M
Eriksen free
Martinez 47M
Casemiro 60M
Antony 85M
Weghorst 2M (loan)
Sabitzer free (loan)

Mount 55M
Evans free
Onana 44M
Hojlund 72M
Bayindir 4M
Armabat 8M (loan)
reguilon free (loan)

It is 390M if my source is correct, but yes, Ten Hag should have been able to replace 6 of his 11 starting XI with his spending (7 if we count Mainoo in) plus 5-6 squad players. so lack of resource should not be an excuse. Ten Hag has spent his money dumbly.

 

[Alpha 1]

I think you’re butthurt that you’ve made a claim everyone disagrees with you on here.

If xG isn’t an issue for you then surely 4th best defensive performance in the league is decent given we’ve had 24 (?) different defensive combinations.

Yes. I believe Ten Hag even after the Brentford game deserves a bit more time and structure around him before we throw him aside.

I believe with the right summer additions (ideally 5) we’ll see a jump in performance levels.

In 2024:
W - Wigan (A) 0-2 (FA Cup)
D - Tottenham (H) 2-2
W - Newport (A) 2-4 (FA Cup)
W - Wolves (A) 3-4
W - West Ham (H) 3-0
W - Villa (A) 1-2
W - Luton (A) 1-2
L - Fulham (H) 1-2
W - Nottingham (A) 0-1 (FA Cup)
L - Man City (A) 3-1
W - Everton (H) 2-0
W - Liverpool (H) 4-3 (FA Cup)
D - Brentford (A) 1-1

Is it that bad? Really?

The performances have been indefinsibly atrocious. Most of those matches we allowed so many shots against us and were saved by individual moments in defence and offense. A case in point was yesterday's game; we should have been hammered but the result was a draw. Story of our season really.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Didn’t know you were waiting for this…

I was wrong. The number is 15. Roughly €450m spent. He had veto power, so he agreed to every single one. I’m assuming he also had a budget. I don’t think he has full accountability for the transfers, but certainly had to sign off on every single one.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/manchester-united/alletransfers/verein/985

Antony
Casemiro
Lisandro
Malacia
Weghorst
Sabitzer
Eriksen
Dubrovka

Hojlund
Mount
Onana
Amrabaat
Bayandir
Evans
Reguilon

I should add that we do need better players, no question. Do I think our current players can play better under a different manager? Absolutely. I think we need both a change in management and better attackers, midfielders and defenders to put in a truly authentic title challenge. No confidence that with a world class squad, Ten Hag could beat Arteta or Pep.

So the big signings there are:
Antony - Fail
Casemiro - Excellent 1st season, injured/poor 2nd
Martinez - Excellent 1st season, injured 2nd

Mount - Injured all season thus far
Højlund - Injured start but coming good
Onana - Poor start but coming good

The only complete abject failure of a bigger signing is Antony and Ten Hag doesn’t negotiate the fees (and also reportedly wanted a striker that window).

Weghorst and Sabitzer were emergency loan responses to Ronaldo being a cnut and us losing Eriksen to injury. Hardly fair to claim them to be proper “signings”.

Amrabat, Evans and Reguillon were all signed too because of injury concerns. Amrabat was due to Mainoo being injured, Evans due to everyone loll and Reguillon because it’s April and we’ve still not had our LBs fit.

 

[Gordon S]

But it seem strange to me that so many fans believed in him after last season,

Some people were fooled into thinking it was better than it actually was, because it was slightly better than the terrible season before. We had loads of games were we didn`t play convincing football. A lot of close games where we managed to edge it with a great moment from Marcus or Garnacho perhaps. Getting absolutely annihilated a few times last season shouldn`t be forgotten when reviewing his two years in charge either.

 

[AndySmith1990]

So the big signings there are:
Antony - Fail
Casemiro - Excellent 1st season, injured/poor 2nd
Martinez - Excellent 1st season, injured 2nd

Mount - Injured all season thus far
Højlund - Injured start but coming good
Onana - Poor start but coming good

The only complete abject failure of a bigger signing is Antony and Ten Hag doesn’t negotiate the fees (and also reportedly wanted a striker that window).

Weghorst and Sabitzer were emergency loan responses to Ronaldo being a cnut and us losing Eriksen to injury. Hardly fair to claim them to be proper “signings”.

Amrabat, Evans and Reguillon were all signed too because of injury concerns. Amrabat was due to Mainoo being injured, Evans due to everyone loll and Reguillon because it’s April and we’ve still not had our LBs fit.

Ok so our recruitment is mostly excellent. Why do we need this new structure then?

I'm aware you'll keep moving the goalposts to defend Ten Hag, but I'll ask anyway

 

[VP89]

Not sure i quite agree on that. No club has an infinate budget, especially now with spending restrictions. It showed some inexperience, naivity on his part in my opinion to allow the club to spend such inflated fees.

Again, he doesn't decide the fees.

 

[JPRouve]

What exactly is strange about believing in a manager when he's doing okay and ending that belief when he takes your club wildly backwards?

And you missed the most important thing that happened in between seasons. ETH changed the system from Oleball (conservative, 2 deeper midfielders, counter attack) to suicide HagBall™ (no midfield, uncoordinated pressing)

Yeah, I find it stranger that so many people in all topics operate based on faith or refuse to adapt their opinion based on up-to-date observations. I genuinely don't understand why people think that mindless faith is normal or desirable.

And that applies to ETH, today I don't understand or have any trust in his decisions but that could change in the future, because my opinions are based on what I have observed, if I observe something new then my opinion will have to adapt.

 

[MadDogg]

Eh? Have you had a knock to the head mate?

Liverpool should have been way out of sight we got lucky.

Yes and no.

Liverpool had a 35 minute period of complete domination (from the 40th through to the 75th minutes), but we were the better team for the other 85 minutes of the game. Obviously not to the same extent as Liverpool were in their period, but we were the better team and creating the better chances.

So we were lucky that Liverpool didn't take advantage of that period more than they did, but they were also lucky we didn't take advantage of more of the chances we created throughout the rest of the game. Ultimately it could easily have gone either way and neither team could complain.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Ok so our recruitment is mostly excellent. Why do we need this new structure then?

I'm aware you'll keep moving the goalposts to defend Ten Hag, but I'll ask anyway

Have I said our recruitment under him has been mostly excellent?

Under the Glazer ownership we’ve overpaid, panic bought and had to use emergency loans as well as retirement home options for too long.

It’s meant players that should have been sold don’t get sold because they are on too high wages or there are some other major issues to sort.

 

[Shunty]

If I’m honest I think his time is running out, there is probably release clause fees if top 4 isn’t achieved in his contract and he has got to go. At the same time a lot of our players need to go also. But you have to ask yourself could another coach get more out of these players and I think the answer is yes. His remark about Man City struggling against Brentford spells out the end for him. like van gaal and mourinho before him just before the end he’s just started speaking rubbish and I think it’s going to get worse at Chelsea and Liverpool. Buckle up

 

[Beachryan]

Ok so our recruitment is mostly excellent. Why do we need this new structure then?

I'm aware you'll keep moving the goalposts to defend Ten Hag, but I'll ask anyway

There are absolutely reasons to think ETH isn't going to work out. I find him humorless, and lacking the charisma to manage this type of club. From the outside, he doesn't seem to have the man-management skills that the very best 'emotional' managers like Klopp and Fergie did. There are far too few 'patterns of play' coming out to make me think we're really nailing what is being taught in training.

But. He's also getting blamed for things that are absolutely not his fault. Almost half of 'his' spending is on Casemiro and Antony - because the club is such a sh*t show they left it til Christmas eve to go shopping. He didn't even want Casemiro, that was clearly 'inspired' by the Brazilian's agent. Because of such brilliant decisions and those before he arrived, we basically can't spend a thing when injuries hit and he's forced to use players like Weghorst, Sabitzer and 50-something out of contract Jonny Evans. That's not something any manager at our 'rivals' is dealing with.

What fans on here keep saying are these two things at once:
1. Of course we need to get rid of Maguire and Lindelof, we'll never be able to play proper football with them. AWB is a liability with the ball, the opposite of a modern fullback. McTominay has the right mentality, but there are training cones that would be better at central midfield. A team built around Fernandes will only ever be chaotic and never maintain consistency in the league.

2. Due to injuries, when ETH has to field Maguire, Lindelof, McTominay and AWB - he's unable to play decent football and we look terrible.

I mean, yes, of course! He's basically having to play every week with an older, stripped-down version of Ole's first XI. So what would a sensible man do with that XI? Play like Ole.

If you're the type to blame the manager for injuries then fine, blame those on him. But it doesn't matter how many £s have been spent if those players are not available to play football for Manchester United.

There have been precious few moments when ETH has been able to field anything resembling a fit first XI, and we've generally been good in those. For me, his handling of the youth players seems strong: Garnacho, Mainoo and Dalot are not only improving but have become first-choice in their positions. Hojland was never supposed to be a main man but he's improving too.

I think he gets a decent window and another season (or part of). I want to see what his plan is for Mount, and how that reduces the insanity of Bruno. I want to see what a fast back line would enable him to do with the much-hyped counterpress (again, impossible with Harry Maguire). Hell, I'd just like a couple weeks of having both a left-back and a right-back playing in those positions for us.

 

[afatzp]

I now switch to the camp that ETH should go. This game with Brentford is the last straw. It's not about we were conceived 30+ shots by a lower table team, but on the incompetence of the coach team to analyze the opponent and understand your form and strength , then come up a game plan to win.

It's very obvious that Brentford reply on their two forwards Toney and Wissa and play 3-5-2 with direct through ball / long ball to stretch the field. Controlling these two forwards should be the key for any game plan. Basically Maguire and Casemiro have to start so we can deal with the aerial duel threat. Also Jensen was their playmaker to place those balls connecting with the forwards and allowed free run. You would need a No.8 to follow him constantly. Then what did we do ? We started Lindelof who was bullied by Toney/Wissa every single time and they can easily shield the long balls / through balls down to allow the team back up. We started McT who still thought he was a No.8 / No.10 role , constantly left his position of No.6 and his two CBs unguarded . Then Mainoo just had no idea who to freeze and followed his instinct to cover ground.

On our side we have Garnacho who traveled long way and played two games for the national team , and Anthony who had no national duty and just had a great cameo last game. It would make sense to start Anthony in this case. Also Rashford was subbed off until 80 mins while he was strolling around after 60 mins. We see Wan Bissaka constantly made passing mistakes and could not get back to position after meaningless support to Rashford at left side while never received a pass. Then he was never instructed to stay put more so use his strength more on defense and allow Dalot at the other side can play further up. The mistakes from him just rinse and repeat in the whole game.

Our coach team seem do no care on who would be the opponent and play the exact same start as the last game because we ended up winning it, regardless how and why and what can be improved.

I constantly hear ETH says we are in the process. But process of what ? Yes when key players came back we played slightly better. But that's not "process". I see still the same disjoint and uncoached play , just better individuals who handled the situations slightly better. There is no such progress that the team play better football with gradually trained system and pattern .

 

[RatPack]

--------------- Onana ‐-----------
Dalot - Varane - Martinez - Shaw
‐-------- Casemiro - Mainoo ----------
‐----------------- Mount ------‐--------------
Amad ------- Rasmus ---- Ganacho

I would like to see this team play with everybody 100% fit.
If he then still displays crap I will agree he has to go.

But for now I would prefer us to clear out players that cannot play a high line and possesion football (Bruno, Rashford, McGuire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay + all none youngsters out on loan.

If we get a new coach now he will want to work with the players we have, to find out who he can use, and with the Euro's that will mean most will be here for next season.
And with the players we have we will need a coach who plays "park the bus".

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Take yesterday as an example, there is not many managers in the world who would have Lindelof/Varane/AWB/Rashford/Bruno/McTom playing in a dominant possession style which many on the Cafe are hoping for.

Yes they would. Ange and De Zerbi have busted this myth.

 

[Sarni]

Our collective fanbase might be the most lenient in all of sports.

It definitely is, and it extends to club management as well who are equally relaxed about underperformance. Our current place would not be tolerated at any other big club, let alone with the added context of us not actually deserving to even be 6th. Yet here he can basically rest relaxed and people are even talking about giving him a new contract and attending to his needs even more because they are afraid he’s going to walk and join Barcelona/Bayern.

 

[AndySmith1990]

--------------- Onana ‐-----------
Dalot - Varane - Martinez - Shaw
‐-------- Casemiro - Mainoo ----------
‐----------------- Mount ------‐--------------
Amad ------- Rasmus ---- Ganacho

I would like to see this team play with everybody 100% fit.
If he then still displays crap I will agree he has to go.

But for now I would prefer us to clear out players that cannot play a high line and possesion football (Bruno, Rashford, McGuire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay + all none youngsters out on loan.

If we get a new coach now he will want to work with the players we have, to find out who he can use, and with the Euro's that will mean most will be here for next season.
And with the players we have we will need a coach who plays "park the bus".

Your post is somewhat contradictory.

You don't yet believe Ten Hag has to go, but your requirements for changing your opinion rely on him choosing a team he's obviously never going to start. You believe we should get rid of Rashford and Bruno, two players who Ten Hag always starts, despite you thinking they're not suitable for the way we play, yet the manager you back clearly disagrees.

 

[GoldanoGraham]

With all the Southgate chat over the international break - ETH certainly knows how to pour gasoline all over those rumours with quite possibly the most abject display of his reign against Brentford.

Knives will be out and sharpened.

 

[Donut]

I think ETH even after United will continue to show he's an extremely poor manager. He'll get some gig in Germany where he'll fail and then he'll linger in the Dutch league. There is no other manager so stubborn and unwilling to compromise as ETH. Can't wait until he leaves.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Newport, Wolves and West Ham when we still conceded 17, 16 and 22 shots.

Newport was nearly so so embarrassing.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

So you are of the opinion most (so more than 10? Managers currently in the PL) would have us higher than 6th and would have done a better overall job than Ten Hag has so far?

Please name these 10.

Pep
Arteta
Klopp
Emery
Howe
De Zerbi
Ange
Frank (based on ETH vs Frank duels, Frank has out coached him every time)
O’Neill
Iraola

 

[FootballAI]

Ten Hag's attributes are there for everybody to see, and unfortunately it is not United quality that we need.

Of the most desirable managers currently being, there are Zidane, Alonso, Pep and Arteta. What do they all have in commons:
1. Top Central midfielders
2. Worked with several great managers in their past
3. Intelligent, visionary players who used to dictate the games during playing career.
4. Good, professional and ethical players that rarely run into problems outside the pitch

For the sake of our future, I hope we get rid of ETH whether now or the end of the season, and sign Alonso or one of the next generational manager, surely some are still out there. Stop getting the like of Van Gaal, Mourinho and this current person who learned football mostly from the older books.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

By the way was he really schooled by Thomas Frank ?

He has been at least twice since coming to England.

 

[Sarni]

Pep
Arteta
Klopp
Emery
Howe
De Zerbi
Ange
Frank (based on ETH vs Frank duels, Frank has out coached him every time)
O’Neill
Iraola

I’d definitely have Marco Silva up there. He’s sitting on 39 points with a Fulham team that lost Mitrovic with virtually no replacement and is short on quality across the pitch.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

I’d definitely have Marco Silva up there. He’s sitting on 39 points with a Fulham team that lost Mitrovic with virtually no replacement and is short on quality across the pitch.

Completely forgot about him! Agreed. Out coached ETH at Old Trafford too.

 

[Sarni]

Completely forgot about him! Agreed. Out coached ETH at Old Trafford too.

At Craven Cottage too, to be fair. It was one of those games where we were outplayed but they could not score and we grabbed a lucky late winner.

 

[DJ_21]

Pep
Arteta
Klopp
Emery
Howe
De Zerbi
Ange
Frank (based on ETH vs Frank duels, Frank has out coached him every time)
O’Neill
Iraola

Only 5 of them managers are above us though. This job will be way too big for the likes of O’Neil, Frank, Iraola. And Frank has won like 3 games in 20 matches losing to the likes of Sheff Utd and you think he’ll do better with us?