Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[stevoc]

Not at all, but if they enter a toxic environment then it seeps round and confidence drains and the cycle repeats.

Well I think the whole toxic environment and downing tools thing is overblown. These players are trying and I think they tried for Ten Hag as well. We're just siffering right now because of a lot of factors.

The culture in a squad is set by the manager so if it's bad then that's largely on the manager.

 

[Hughie77]

If this guy was a brick layer The Glazers would have given him a knife and fork to build a wall.
Hes not the problem the squad isn't good enough or fit enough.. he's had to go to the under 21s and play 17 18 19 yrs old boys .

If the club do not back him with players he needs in the summer he's in for a hiding again next season..

 

[Telsim]

Well, we’ve seen enough now to make it clear that this is just a very, very poorly thought-out appointment. An unproven coach from a weaker league with a rigid system forced upon a squad that is as bad a fit as you can imagine. He doesn’t know how to fix it, and it is unlikely it even can be fixed. Anyone who knows ball will see that most of this squad will have to be replaced just to accommodate this style of play. Yet the club doesn’t have the funds to do this, and neither do the owners. The best that can be done is to look for cheap, young players that fit this system, but even then, it will take years to recruit everyone and has a low chance of success. Only clubs with a lot of experience and a successful recruitment history can find such players consistently, and United aren’t that sort of club, so the chances of building a proper team this way aren’t great. The struggle will be compounded by the lack of European competition for the foreseeable future. A specific system like that would also require continuity, with the next coach playing in the same or similar way, which would significantly limit the number of candidates.

I will indulge in some speculation, but I think it is quite clear where the issue comes from. Amorim would have slotted into City perfectly, and they must have had him marked as Guardiola’s eventual successor. Berrada must have thought that because they rated him there, he is good enough for United, but he horribly misjudged the situation. United don’t have City’s squad and club structure, or their financial strength, so what would have worked there wouldn’t work here. It seems the club should have gone the pragmatic way until the financial situation can be improved and the club can be steadied. I also think this is what caused friction with Ashworth, who recognized this and would have gone this way instead. He wanted Frank, who can work on a string budget and with what’s available, which now makes sense, and I myself will have to eat a crow as I was pretty despondent at that prospect, but I can see the wisdom in it now.

I like Amorim and I think he is good coach, and I appreciate him sticking to his philosophy, but for what it’s worth, I don’t think he will be manager next season. Club and manager are an extremely bad fit at this time and I think it is likely both sides will reach the same conclusion sooner rather than later. It seems Amorim is already aware of this, because otherwise it makes no sense to throw the players, bad as they are, under the bus publicly, considering he would be relying on this squad for the next two seasons at least.

The bigger issue however is that this exposes the INEOS group as just completely lost. They seem to have… good intentions but lack the knowledge, competency and resources for a project of this size. Something that many people suspected during the bidding process. I still think the situation with Ashworth was the biggest red flag you could possibly ask for. Dark days ahead.

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

The media are turning on him.

I would like to see Garnacho replacing one of the WBs.

 

[stevoc]

Lindelof
Casemiro
Eriksen
Dalot
Bruno
Maguire
Onana

All been here for multiple years multiple managers - 4 of them have been regular starters this season and 2 of them regular subs all played yesterday

Not including
Shaw
Anthony
Martinez
Mount
Evans

There is still a massive purge to be done out of all of those players only Bruno is worth keeping, maybe Martinez.

That’s 12 players listed out of squad of about 24 players

Only 5 of those players have played under multiple managers. The rest were signed within the last 2 seasons by Ten Hag.

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

Garnacho then cant affect the attack because he's not good at running long distances with the ball.

And then who plays up front? The only option is Eriksen with Zirkzee and Hojlund, the same set up as what started vs Fulham.

Pretty depressing right? Amad’s injury has screwed us - although he didn’t play him at WB lately!

 

[GaryLifo]

I'd really like the senior management to make a statement that no matter what, Amorim will be in charge at the end of next season, no matter what, and if you don't like it, poke it up your hole.

Be worth it to see all the snow flakes on here in tears

 

[Stig]

Shearer asked the rhetorical question today, where would United be without Bruno. I think that the answer is in the bottom three.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Im suprised he hasnt been sacked yet, he should've been relieved of his duties first thing this morning so we could have someone else in place in time for the game with Sociadad on Thursday

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I'd really like the senior management to make a statement that no matter what, Amorim will be in charge at the end of next season, no matter what, and if you don't like it, poke it up your hole.

Be worth it to see all the snow flakes on here in tears

That kind of declarative statement would never happen, with any manager

 

[Eric's-collar]

Well the RA bubble didnt take long to burst, he's only been here a couple of months, if we start next season on similar fashion then fair enough, but at least give him a chance, this season went downhill early doors and the squad is the worst post SAF

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

It will have to be the biggest rebuild, if you go through the squad. Whoever the manager is.

Onana - not good enough, has to be replaced
Lindelof - leaving in 3 months
Maguire - leaving in 15 months
Shaw - crocked, will not play football again
Martinez - potentially crocked, might never play again at this level
Evans - leaving in 3 months
Mount - crocked, wont play again
Eriksen - leaving in 3 months
Casemiro - leaving in 15 months
Rashford - will be sold or loaned again
Antony - will be sold or loaned again

There's 11 senior players who we know wont be at the club, or wont be playing football, in 26/27.

Onana 10m
Rashford 40m
Antony 20m

IF they are prepared to take pay cuts, which is not a given.

Not easy to do a rebuild without any money. We are stuck in spot 10-15 for some time.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Im suprised he hasnt been sacked yet, he should've been relieved of his duties first thing this morning so we could have someone else in place in time for the game with Sociadad on Thursday

Can we afford to sack him? Our board is probably the worst in football but they will have to make a decision in May.

 

[flameinthesun]

Shearer asked the rhetorical question today, where would United be without Bruno. I think that the answer is in the bottom three.

I'm not Bruno's biggest fan but Shearer ain't wrong.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Garnacho then cant affect the attack because he's not good at running long distances with the ball.

And then who plays up front? The only option is Eriksen with Zirkzee and Hojlund, the same set up as what started vs Fulham.

Yup. The only tangible thing we can hope for, in this mess, is that Zirkzee develops an understanding with Garnacho, so these two can recreate the Martial-Rashford link-up on the left side. I think it happened once or twice yesterday. I can't see anything else in the final third with the available players (besides Bruno hitting balls in-behind to whoever decides to make a run).

 

[JPRouve]

It will have to be the biggest rebuild, if you go through the squad. Whoever the manager is.

Onana - not good enough, has to be replaced
Lindelof - leaving in 3 months
Maguire - leaving in 15 months
Shaw - crocked, will not play football again
Martinez - potentially crocked, might never play again at this level
Evans - leaving in 3 months
Mount - crocked, wont play again
Eriksen - leaving in 3 months
Casemiro - leaving in 15 months
Rashford - will be sold or loaned again
Antony - will be sold or loaned again

There's 11 senior players who we know wont be at the club, or wont be playing football, in 26/27.

Antony, Lindelof, Eriksen and Evans are end of bench players. Mount has never been a thing for United, Shaw hasn't been a thing in several years. In your list the only relevant players are Rashford, Onana and Martinez. We aren't actually in a rush to replace Onana even if it would be welcomed.

Your list isn't special either, in 2022 we lost:

Pereira
Garner
Pogba
Cavani
Matic
Lingard
Bailly
Telles
Ronaldo
Henderson

 

[pocco]

We‘ll see. Some of your takes are quite something.

The signings this summer and last summer weren‘t Ten Hag signings but club signings. Yoro, Zirkzee, Ugarte, Hojlund. De Ligt and Mazraoui were good deals and they have performed well overall.

Amorim is doing terrible with these club signings. Ten Hag did way better with last season‘s injury stricken squad without a backline.

Which takes? Let’s discuss! I know some of our resident Dutch fans haven’t liked what I’ve had to say over the last 12 months or so, but I don’t see anything wrong in what I’ve said in the quoted post. If I have, let’s hear it.

Ten Hag got away with murder in practically every game it felt like last season. That’s why the stats had us as being around 14th place in the league. And guess what, he got a fit squad this season with an extra £200m in signings and had us in….*checks notes*…14th place! What a surprise. And how about the Europa League? Practically getting knocked out of a competition where it is set up to make it very difficult to get knocked out. Some achievement with his £600m team (plus all the inherited players and youngsters, who are better than all of his signings pretty much). Don’t talk to me about Ten Hag.

De Ligt and Mazraoui are as average as I expected them to be.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Amorim "weakened" the squad himself though, so presumably he thought he'd improve things by letting players leave. Instead he's arsed it.

Do we know this for a fact on the Antony one? Or did the club push the deal through to save on £££.

 

[dubplate warrior]

It will have to be the biggest rebuild, if you go through the squad. Whoever the manager is.

Onana - not good enough, has to be replaced
Lindelof - leaving in 3 months
Maguire - leaving in 15 months
Shaw - crocked, will not play football again
Martinez - potentially crocked, might never play again at this level
Evans - leaving in 3 months
Malacia - will be sold or loaned again
Mount - crocked, wont play again
Eriksen - leaving in 3 months
Casemiro - leaving in 15 months
Rashford - will be sold or loaned again
Antony - will be sold or loaned again

There's 12 senior players who we know wont be at the club, or wont be playing football, in 26/27.

On top of that, the club can see Hojlund and Zirkzee aren't good enough for this league and will be sold if a decent offer came in, and the club clearly has designs on selling Garnacho.

There is no manager who can turn that around. Whoever you bring in needs a blank slate.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Garnacho then cant affect the attack because he's not good at running long distances with the ball.

And then who plays up front? The only option is Eriksen with Zirkzee and Hojlund, the same set up as what started vs Fulham.

He wouldn't necessarily need to do that though - people need to get their head around the WBs being Wingers not Full backs, it's been shown on here enough times. This is Palace in possession, how does that position not suit Garnacho, it's his bread and butter?

You can see broadly similar with all 3 at the back coaches, including Amorim at Sporting:

Get him in either WB role, I would prefer RWB as he will shoot less, and just let him attack. We get countered all the time anyway, it's not like playing FBs as WBs has stopped that happening.

 

[DWelbz19]

He’s played every game under Amorim bar the one he was suspended for. I’ll believe that when I see it.

I see absolutely no world where Diogo Dalot isn’t an important player for this manager and his system. I imagine a lot of our fans will be in for a shock when he’s still starting next season.

 

[pocco]

It’s interesting really as, when he came in, all the journalists were telling him these players are crap, and he said he didn’t believe it and he thinks they are capable of playing better. I remember him saying we’ll see who is correct in time. None of this was a bad approach at the time given he had to work with these players and he likely knew there would be no investment in January, or very little.

But fast forward a few months and our struggles are suddenly all on him. Seems that the players are going to get away with it yet again. They might not be all the same players, but very little of them are good enough to play for Manchester United, that much is not clear. 2 (or more in some cases) coaches, 2 completely different approaches, and the same results. And yet the players are almost being excused by the fans.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Who would you suggest in your infinite wisdom

Bring in someone like Allegri until tbe end of the season, we are now at the point where the Europa League is our last hope of qualifying for Europe and being able to spend in the summer so we need be doing whatever we can to give us the best chance of winning it including replacing the manager.

 

[Doracle]

Do we know this for a fact on the Antony one? Or did the club push the deal through to save on £££.

Amorim said that they were all his decisions (Rashford, Antony and Malacia loans) so I think he has to shoulder the blame.

 

[DWelbz19]

He wouldn't necessarily need to do that though - people need to get their head around the WBs being Wingers not Full backs, it's been shown on here enough times. This is Palace in possession, how does that position not suit Garnacho, it's his bread and butter?

You can see broadly similar with all 3 at the back coaches, including Amorim at Sporting:

Get him in either WB role, I would prefer RWB as he will shoot less, and just let him attack. We get countered all the time anyway, it's not like playing FBs as WBs has stopped that happening.

I think the level and the intensity of the PL has scared the manager from playing wingers in wingback positions. Amad’s the only one he’s done and his general preference since joining has been to play fullbacks there.

 

[GaryLifo]

That kind of declarative statement would never happen, with any manager

I realise this, i just want frozen snowflake tears before bedtime

Folk need to knuckle down and stop fecking whining

 

[GaryLifo]

Amorim said that they were all his decisions (Rashford, Antony and Malacia loans) so I think he has to shoulder the blame.

The 'blame' for letting 3 players go that 95% of fans wanted gone from the club... okay then

Unreal

 

[tomaldinho1]

That screenshot isn't representative of the work wing backs have to do. Mitchell, Robinson, Kerkez etc, all the best attacking full/wing backs in the league, have insane work rates.

Garnacho wouldn't work hard enough to cover the left flank, and we'd be constantly exposed. Also, because of his limited talent, he's terrible at carrying the ball long distances, especially on the touchline. The only place Garnacho ever positively effects games is cutting in from close to the box. Playing wing back he'd never be close enough to the opposition goal to make those contributions. His team play and crossing is also abysmal and the whole point of wing backs is they deliver crosses.

All those WBs you mention get caught out, that's just the nature of being a WB, it's not like they have some unattainable level of fitness our players can only dream of. Garnacho does actually run a decent amount, I remember that was a big thing highlighted from 22/23 to 23/24 with him, that he actually was grafting on his flank. He's not lazy, just selfish, and given Ruben wants us to keep the ball and be quite boring that limits how much he'd have to be up and down in transition, which is the hard bit.

The reason you get the impression, which I thin is fair on this season, that he is a one trick pony is because that's all he's ever needed to do + the same happened with Rashford. United have played basic counter football for a while, the wide attackers try and get one on one and cut inside, we don't overlap full backs, we don't really do much crossing, it's just recycle the ball, feed a fast man and cross your fingers. I thikn he's young enough to improve his all round game and be a good player.

 

[Shark]

It’s interesting really as, when he came in, all the journalists were telling him these players are crap, and he said he didn’t believe it and he thinks they are capable of playing better. I remember him saying we’ll see who is correct in time. None of this was a bad approach at the time given he had to work with these players and he likely knew there would be no investment in January, or very little.

But fast forward a few months and our struggles are suddenly all on him. Seems that the players are going to get away with it yet again. They might not be all the same players, but very little of them are good enough to play for Manchester United, that much is not clear. 2 (or more in some cases) coaches, 2 completely different approaches, and the same results. And yet the players are almost being excused by the fans.

Our squad obviously isn't up to scratch, but what makes you so certain Amorim is good enough to manage Manchester United? Two things can be true at the same time, creating the mess we're currently in. We've hired two system managers simultaneously from much weaker leagues. Both hirings have been huge gambles.

 

[JPRouve]

Eriksen and Lindelof are key squad players right now because of the lack of personnel even though they're going to leave in June. Same with Maguire and Casemiro who have 0% chance of contract extensions beyond next season.

One of the main reasons we're in this mess is because ETH and the club continually thought of Mount and Shaw as United players who would get back to fitness, and included them in their thinking. If the club has finally wised up on that, then that's 2 more bodies who need brought in.

Neither players are key for anything, they are end of bench options. I don't deny the idea the we will need to replace them one way or the other butt these type of squad players aren't key to a rebuild they are a dime a dozen and in many cases they should be replaced by youth players. Eriksen should be replaced by Collyer and Lindelof by someone like Heaven. Antony has basically been replaced by Dorgu while Sancho has been replaced by Amad last summer.

Now I agree with a term that you used, you mainly listed "bodies", it's not an unprecedented rebuild whether we are talking about numbers and even less if we are talking about quality.

 

[pocco]

I see absolutely no world where Diogo Dalot isn’t an important player for this manager and his system. I imagine a lot of our fans will be in for a shock when he’s still starting next season.

Based on what? He’s signed a new LWB, and it looks like he wants Quenda. How do you see it going? Dalot is better than he’s showing and was possibly our best player last season. If he gets back to that level then I’d have no problems. But he isn’t going to be happy with his output this season.

 

[Doracle]

That screenshot isn't representative of the work wing backs have to do. Mitchell, Robinson, Kerkez etc, all the best attacking full/wing backs in the league, have insane work rates.

Garnacho wouldn't work hard enough to cover the left flank, and we'd be constantly exposed. Also, because of his limited talent, he's terrible at carrying the ball long distances, especially on the touchline. The only place Garnacho ever positively effects games is cutting in from close to the box.

I seem to remember stats which showed Garnacho covered far more ground than Antony in a 90 minute match and my impression of him is that one of his key attributes is that he never stops running. There’s possible questions about his defensive commitment but I don’t really recall Amad doing much defending when he plays at wing back either.

This is also the first time I’ve seen it suggested that a wingback needs to be more skilful than an outright winger. The key benefit of playing there is you often pick it up in more space and can drive forwards without having to have perfect close control - something Garnacho is well suited for.

Ultimately, we don’t know why Amorim isn’t trying him there, save that he does seem to prefer using defenders there. It would certainly be interesting to see at least in the odd home match against weaker teams.

 

[pocco]

Our squad obviously isn't up to scratch, but what makes you so certain Amorim is good enough to manage Manchester United? Two things can be true at the same time, creating the mess we're currently in.

I don’t know if he’s good enough to manage us to a title, but I’d like to see how we look when his ideas are actually being carried out on the pitch. I’d feel short changed if he’s gone before we even see that. I think he needs signings in RWB, ST and maybe a new 10 or very good CM who is better on the ball. So 3 players and more of our current players fit and I’ll see how it goes then.

I just think that, if we sack him, we’ll be back to square one with a new coach and new ideas, and we’ll probably be having the same conversations again next season. Even if we brought in a coach who plays 4231, as we looked poor earlier this season in that system anyway. And the biggest issue will still be there - zero attacking threat and goal scoring ability. No manager can overcome having to navigate the PL with this attack.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I don’t know if he’s good enough to manage us to a title, but I’d like to see how we look when his ideas are actually being carried out on the pitch. I’d feel short changed if he’s gone before we even see that. I think he needs signings in RWB, ST and maybe a new 10 or very good CM who is better on the ball. So 3 players and more of our current players fit and I’ll see how it goes then.

I just think that, if we sack him, we’ll be back to square one with a new coach and new ideas, and we’ll probably be having the same conversations again next season. Even if we brought in a coach who plays 4231, as we looked poor earlier this season in that system anyway. And the biggest issue will still be there - zero attacking threat and goal scoring ability. No manager can overcome having to navigate the PL with this attack.

That’s exactly it. There’s no use in sacking him to just remain in the same vicious cycle.

 

[JPRouve]

I think the level and the intensity of the PL has scared the manager from playing wingers in wingback positions. Amad’s the only one he’s done and his general preference since joining has been to play fullbacks there.

I would say that it's more a lack of tactical nous and to be fair a lack of central midfielders. When you use wingers in a 343 it's generally not by playing a 3241 but playing in 31213 or 3133. Famous examples of it are Cruijff's Barcelona and LVG's Ajax in 1995.

At full strength United could easily setup like that:

--------------------Zirkzee
-Garnacho-----------------Amad
---------------------Bruno
---------Mainoo---------Ugarte
-------------------Martinez
-------Shaw-De Ligt--Yoro

In that case the defensive key is that your primary defensive pairing on the wings are Mainoo/Shaw and Ugarte/Yoro with extra help from the wingers in some cases. These kind of setups are in theory as solid as any but they are more difficult to grasp for certain players, for example you don't want your DM to abandon his central area, he can drop in central defense but he can't go from touchline to touchline carelessly because packing the central midfield is key. The other benefit of this is that it's easy to move to a traditional 433.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I’d sack him if we go out in Europe next week. He needs a good run here to save his job. Minimum semi finals for me.

 

[JPRouve]

If we look at the 22 rebuild as you mentioned, that similar level of upheaval meant we had to make 5 major signings for £220m - Case, Eriksen, Martinez, Antony, Malacia - and also that season loaned Dubravka/Butland, Weghorst and Sabitzer.

And ultimately botching that rebuild was why we transitioned from a top four-ish squad to a bottom-half squad.

That and the poor coaching. But yes, my point was that a potential rebuilt isn't and wouldn't be the biggest in club history. Also the fact that botched the last rebuilt should make people particularly aware of how important the head coach ability to get the best out of most players is important, you can't rely on the transfer market.

 

[stevoc]

I'd really like the senior management to make a statement that no matter what, Amorim will be in charge at the end of next season, no matter what, and if you don't like it, poke it up your hole.

Be worth it to see all the snow flakes on here in tears

How do you know they even think that?

And why would they publicly paint themselves into a corner in such a manner?

No manager should have that type of guarantee bar special cases like Ferguson or Pep at City.

 

[madzo2007]

Bring in someone like Allegri until tbe end of the season, we are now at the point where the Europa League is our last hope of qualifying for Europe and being able to spend in the summer so we need be doing whatever we can to give us the best chance of winning it including replacing the manager.

Don't forget we would also have to pay off Amorim if we sack him and all his coaches. That would have an effect on the summer budget too and PSR.

Theoretically if Allegri came to the end of the season, who replaces him in the summer then??

 

[Teja]

I would say that it's more a lack of tactical nous and to be fair a lack of central midfielders. When you use wingers in a 343 it's generally not by playing a 3241 but playing in 31213 or 3133. Famous examples of it are Cruijff's Barcelona and LVG's Ajax in 1995.

Curious what your take is on ideal role profiles for 5 ATB setups and for Amorim's 343 specifically. I wanted to make a thread profiling the CM role in a "typical" back three system. "typical" in quotes because there is really no such thing and player availability, club strength and coaching preferences all influence the setup. I planned to look at CM specifically but that got me thinking about the whole team in general.

I wanted to look at modern coaches (Conte, Tuchel, Alonso, Inzaghi) because I'm not really familiar with the Cryuffs / early Van Gaal and come up with general positional demands and identify where we're playing square pegs in round holes. Some thoughts initially:

CCB - We're fine with De Ligt / Maguire
RCB - Fine with Yoro / Maz
LCB - A Shaw type player would be nice, Martinez isn't the ideal fit because he's not exactly a mobile wide center back but no issues for now. Depends how Martinez recovers from injury.

CMs: A normal combination is a regista + a runner / ball-winner but obviously the balance here varies quite a bit. e.g., It could be a Jorginho + Kante or a Pirlo + Vidal or a Jorghino + Kovacic. I think Ugarte will be somewhat of a lock given his recent acquisition and decent form. Bruno in his regista role has been alright but he's far cry from a midfield metronome. I really want a specialist in this role. I'm also not sure where that leaves Mainoo because he doesn't seem to have a role here.

AM (1): Creator of the Bruno mould
AM (2): An inside forward, capable of receiving the ball on the half turn, drives into space behind. Need a starter.

WBs: Not much needs to be said, everyone understands what a wing back should do and it's generally easy to sign a wing back.
CF: Again, not much needs to be said. Think Diego Costa. Need better CFs. Someone like a Delap would be fine if we can get a bargain.

So overall my priority list is:

Playmaker CM (how many times have we said this over the last 10 years!) -- Ideally a Matic rather than a Jorginho but I'll take what I can get.
Inside forward
CF
RWB