No, they don't. The psychos running the show decide they want something and then tell us it's about values so that we can justify to ourselves that we're mass murdering largely innocent people for their own good. You're obviously still under that illusion and that's fine, if a little sad.
General CE Chat
- Thread starter Raoul
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Well, depends on who you ask. Tell the values of rape, torture and murder that western nations had been bringing around the world. The internal consumption of pandered western values might be some human values but they are basically judeo-cristian values. There are other values like for example the ones that are in shintoism-taoism in Japan that are human values and couldnt be further from the western values. And please, don't ask me what are the main values of shintoism-taoism because I don't know them, but I think japanese society is up there in humanity and much further in civilized society. Yes, there are feck up situations in their society as much as there are feck up situations in ours
Again, this exercise is western centric and it make sense because we live in a western society, but the world is so big and I am sorry, there are plenty of countries and societies that western values don't fit. Now tell them that they don't have human values. Just roughly telling 4-5 billion people that they don't have human values from a society that had enslaved them, invade them, colonized them, bombed the shit out of them, plundered them and toppled their governments for the last 500 years. And we still do and we still enjoy of what we do since then till now.
I agree that is more complicated than just saying its Western Supremacy, but the "western values" had been put in a flag as excuse to do all what had been done since WWII, that had been dominate the world from the west as it had been since 500 years ago. First spanish-english-french (portuguese shut up) and now US
I agree on the individualistic parts of society. I am not discussing this. Everybody has its own morals, codes, limits and such and as you point out, there is an outcome that is called democratic society. But lets not fool ourselves. No one cared of Chilean coup, the argentinian coup, US government flooding the country of cocaine while financing the contras in nicaragua, the indochine boming in laos and cambodja and many more because it didn't affect them. Vietnam it affect them for obvious reasons.
If US would had not bring troops it would be another conflict that the US population would be fed that it was done to bring Western values, democracy and freedom. Rinse and repeat. In the XXI century, with so many access to information, this shit doesn't fly anymore for a bigger portion of the population and it exposes the hypocritical behaviour that had been proclaimed for all the conflicts that the US had been involved.
The reason I said human values is because I dont think it just applies to the West. Values are values and and yes there are other values in other societies like Japan. Point I'm making is you cant just blanket the West as evil and everything they do is just for supremacy. Do they do evil sht? Yes but show me a country that doesn't.
That's a very limited interpretation of what's happening since everybody is influencing each other all the time. Sometimes what you write is true, sometimes it's the other way round and political leaders have to adapt their agendas to trends that emerged be without their interference. Political leaders have far less control over trends and public opinion than you assume and as long as there is freedom of speech, there will be people like you right now who aren't swayed by the media and point out hypocrisy.
I don't disagree with that. Humans aren't rational most of the time and their moral compass is off very often for a whole bunch of reasons. I'm just pointing out that a moral code consisting of democratic values is influencing political decisions, however apt the assessment may be.
You think political leaders are running the show? That's probably where we're running into our disagreement. We live in an oligarchy, the entire West does.
I dont blanket JUST the west as evil. The west is evil as Russia imperialism is evil as Chinese autocracy is evil. And when I say evil, I am talking about the forces that rules them. Again, I am not talking about JUST the west being evil but the hypocrisy of the moral superiority of the western values when the west had done the siltiest things. As much or more than other nations. I don't like the moral superiority, double standards and hypocresy
I completely disagree. Religion had become culture and is deeply ingrained in our society and how we behave. In europe itself you can tell the big divisive between catholic values from historical catholic regions on how families behave and how protestant values from historical protestant regions on how families behave. It has nothing to do with church and christ. Are dogmas and ethics that had been flowing through our societies from centuries and millennias and is based on the church saying what is good or wrong and then transmitted to the families and shaping societies and how we are supposed to behave in terms of compassion, dealing with moral dilemas and personal relationships and expect to be dealt in kind.
So you wouldn't call secularism and separation of church and state a "western value"?
Absolutely not. China and japan comes to mind. Probably way more secular than the west, specially compared to several countries
I think you are not understanding the point I am trying to make. I am saying that the church morals ethics had become over so many centuries, the west morals and ethics without the need of the active preaching
Dunno about Japan. Aren't most of their recent leaders part of that weird Christian cult?
I don't think there is a single entity that runs the show. I agree on the oligarchy part, especially in case of the US and in my opinion, there should be no billionaires. Moreover, I think that something neefs to be done about the mass spreading of misinformation.
But actually, Musk and co. influencing the narrative through the social media companies they possess is another good example of how values affect our society. They don't challenge Western values, they rather give things a spin that suggests they are against said values. They pretend that 'wokeness' is suppressing freedom of speech, they pretend that an imaginary anti-democratic deep state needs to be stopped, they pretend that white males are being discriminated and so forth.
Well then we just disagree on the bold because I would hold secularism/separation of church and state as one of the core modern western values. It's a core principle of the US constitution and if memory serves, many of the modern European constitutions as well. In fact, whenever I see the phrase "western values" secularism is the first "value" that comes to my mind.
Definitely judeo-christian morals influenced the west but its not the only influence on modern western values. I would say the enlightenment thinkers and science are just as integral to modern western values as any judeo-christian religious morality. Obvious right wing Christian Nationalists disagree but I believe they are just wrong.
separation on the state and the church but part of our taxes goes to them and also they don't pay taxes. Such a separation. The POTUS (but this year) swears on a bible. To give testimony....on a bible. Now there are books forbidden based on religious beliefs. And I could go on an on. And that is not even the point I am making. The separation is another topic
I am just talking that the church moral and values had shaped the moral and values of the western countries while it had been evolving through centuries. The institution of the nuclear family, how we deal with compassion, sexuality, etc...
As I am just repeating myself for a few times, I will leave it with your beginning. We agree to disagree
I am not well versed, but I belief that japanese are quite secular on the practice of any religion on the bulk of a society. Nevertheless, their society had been shaped by centuries of Shintoism and Taoism. I would like to here from a japanese caf though because I may be talking shit here
It's corporations and billionaires calling the shots, that's why every potential government must bend the knee before they are allowed to take office. Look at the British Labour party, look at the Dems over in Murica, look at FFG here in Ireland. All the same shit. When the pay masters decide they want something from somewhere that doesn't want to give it over, the propaganda starts about how these countries/people go against "Western values".
Another example of how the elite use "Western values" against us and manufacture consent. I would argue that your second paragraph is actually evidence for my point.
I'm no expert either, but quite a bit of stuff came out after the assassination of former PM Abe about the Unification Church and its massive influence on Japanese politics.
It's a very strange situation given that only something like 1% of Japanese are actually Christian, but I think a hugely outsized proportion of their leaders since WW2 have been Christian and/or had ties to this Unification Church.
I hope we would have a japanese caf memeber because i may well be talking shit here.
Also i would not take these outliers as a general pulse of an entire society. Crazies gonna craze. Bc of religion, bc homophobia, bc race, bc misoginy and so on
I understand what you are trying to say but it's not another topic because I am telling you that not all western values come from Judeo-Christian morality. Secularism is a western value that is literally codified in the US Constitution by a group of framers that were heavily influenced by enlightenment thinkers so it really is a western value separate from Judeo-Christian morality. At least to my understanding of history. Christian Nationalists would agree with your view, which I personally see as too limited.
You are. As I said before, Japan is influenced by Shintoism and Buddhism not Taoism.
Taoism is one of the three pillars of China along with Buddhism and Confucianism, although they are not really religions in the same way that the Abrahamic religions are organized religions, more schools of thought with variations that can either be theistic or atheistic.
As i said, we agree to disagree
Sure, as long as you stop saying Japan is influenced by Taoism instead of Buddhism.
Just AI overview
"Japan has been significantly influenced by Taoism, particularly through the broader import of Chinese culture during the Nara and Heian periods, impacting areas like spirituality, astrology, and folk beliefs, though less profoundly than Confucianism.
Here's a more detailed look at Taoism's
influence on Japan:
Introduction and Assimilation:
Taoism (also known as Daoism) was introduced to Japan from China between the 7th and 8th centuries, alongside other aspects of Chinese culture, including Buddhism and Confucianism.
Influence on Spirituality:
Taoist practices and concepts were absorbed into Shinto, Japan's indigenous religion, and also influenced the development of esoteric and mystical religions like Onmyōdō and Shugendō.
Onmyōdō:
Onmyōdō, a system of divination and astrology, is heavily rooted in Taoist principles, particularly the concepts of yin and yang and the five elements.
Shugendō:
Shugendō, a syncretic religion combining Shinto, Buddhism, and Taoism, features mountain ascetic practices and beliefs influenced by Taoist concepts of immortality and spiritual purification.
Folk Beliefs and Practices:
Taoist influence can be seen in various Japanese folk beliefs and practices, including divination, magic, and the belief in demons and spirits.
Calendar and Festivals:
The Chinese calendar, which is based on Taoist principles, had a lasting impact on Japanese religious history and the timing of festivals.
Rituals and Customs:
The ritual of setsubun (節分), where chanters repeat "Demons out! Luck in!", has its roots in Taoism and touches on the concepts of uchi-soto (inside-outside).
Examples of Taoist Influence:
Philosophical texts: The Tao-te Ching ("The Classic of the Way of Power") and other philosophical texts were introduced to Japan as part of Chinese culture.
Literary texts: Taoist ideas and concepts also found their way into Japanese literature, particularly through the influence of Buddhism and Chinese culture.
Court festivals and popular festivals: Taoist practices and beliefs influenced both court festivals and popular festivals in Japan.
Astrology and Divination: Taoist principles of astrology and divination were adopted and adapted in Japan, leading to the development of Onmyōdō.
Demons and Spirits: The concept of demons and spirits, which is prominent in Taoism, also influenced Japanese folk beliefs and practices. "
So there is that
AI can hallucinate, although it's sort of correct in that very limited sense but that's a massive stretch from what you originally kept repeating.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan
"Religion in Japan is manifested primarily in Shinto and in Buddhism, the two main faiths, which Japanese people often practice simultaneously. According to estimates, as many as 70% of the populace follow Shinto rituals to some degree, worshiping ancestors and spirits at domestic altars and public shrines. An almost equally high number is reported[6] as Buddhist. Syncretic combinations of both, known generally as shinbutsu-shūgō, are common; they represented Japan's dominant religion before the rise of State Shinto in the 19th century."
| Religious believers in Japan (CIA World Factbook)[3] | ||
|---|---|---|
| Shinto | 70.5% | |
| Buddhism | 67.2% | |
| Christianity | 1.5% | |
| Other religions | 5.9% | |
| Total adherents exceeds 100% because many Japanese people practice both Shinto and Buddhism.[4] |
And shinto was conpletely influenced by taoism at every level since more than 1000 years ago
It wasn't "completely influenced" by Taoism. Look, I've studied both Buddhism and Taoism and can get into a lot more details here but you've already admitted you don't know what you are talking about here and you are just asking some cheap AI so I might as well go have my discussion on ChatGPT
It wasn't "completely influenced" by Taoism. Look, I've studied both Buddhism and Taoism and can get into a lot more details here but you've already admitted you don't know what you are talking about here and you are just asking some cheap AI so I might as well go have my discussion on ChatGPT
I think is the right decision. But even in the stupidity of my arguments on this topic i always learn a thing or 2
Thanks for baring with me
PS: you are wrong on the western values though
It's kind of silly to use China as an example of separation of State and Religion:
Given that the policy isn't to keep them separate, but to completely erode the latter piecemeal by piecemeal so that it pretty much no longer exists as any form of meaningful organization.
One of the main outcomes of the cultural revolution was the wholesale destruction of organized religion to a point where it had no significance culturally or politically whatsoever.
(Though, interestingly enough, this is one of the policies of the CCP I'm not against. The process to do so and implementation of said policy was terrible, but the idea is pretty sound.)
Given that the policy isn't to keep them separate, but to completely erode the latter piecemeal by piecemeal so that it pretty much no longer exists as any form of meaningful organization.
One of the main outcomes of the cultural revolution was the wholesale destruction of organized religion to a point where it had no significance culturally or politically whatsoever.
(Though, interestingly enough, this is one of the policies of the CCP I'm not against. The process to do so and implementation of said policy was terrible, but the idea is pretty sound.)
feck me sideways
Boeing has somehow won the NGAD AF project and will build the new F-47
Boeing has somehow won the NGAD AF project and will build the new F-47
So lucky to get home yesterday and not flying today.
Feel so sorry for everyone affected today.
Feel so sorry for everyone affected today.
4 US soldiers went missing in Lithuania and have allegedly drowned.
Prior to western imperialism Japan and Korea lived largely harmoniously with their giant neighbour. Go figure what changed the equation.
That is not true. At least not Korea/China. And Japan was simply a too far away island where everything could go wrong, like the mongols found out
Korea and China enjoyed 2 centuries of peace prior to western imperialism. Longer if you ignore the fact that Joseon was loyal to the Han-led Ming dynasty that was at war against Manchurian Qing.
Japan wasn't simply too far when the Chinese were already trading with them for over a millenia while "discovering" other parts of Asia and Africa before the West learnt to build ships. So much of Japanese language and culture come from the Chinese, yet mostly peace. Certainly far more peaceful and autonomous than what was to come during the Imperial Japan era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributary_system_of_China
Imperial Japan was a reflection of their learnings from the West during the Meiji restoration, and their brutality towards both countries for close to a century that would make Hitler blush.
This is true. An abomination, but quite literally ranked (an actual rank) by the Americans as the new Britain back in the 19th century. It was learning its lessons from the British, French, and American empires at that time. Whatever else of the long history, this isn't wrong.
The cheap labour, which is the ONLY way to actually achieve his goals, is pure China
1. Far more peaceful and stable than Medieval Europe.
2. The Yuan and Qing are Mongols and Manchurians respectively
3. The relative peace for centuries prior to western and Japanese imperialism
If you cherry pick 200 years is not fair. China and Korea had been at it for centuries and old japan territory had feck themselves around for the same amount of time
They are so horrible, they might be autistic. Hahahahaha. How funny.
I wasn’t making fun of autism, I was highlighting the irony of the nasty garbage this man comes out with. Although the spectrum of autism is extremely wide, his boss and him certainly seem to have character traits that could be classified within the autism spectrum.They are so horrible, they might be autistic. Hahahahaha. How funny.