[2 man midfield]

Before we go there, please remember that :-

1. Inter Milan are in the Champions League final with similar system.

2. Leverkusen won the Bundesliga with a similar system.

3. Atalanta are a very good attacking side with a similar system.

Before everyone goes system-phobic.

Conte won the prem with it, what matters is the personnel

 

[JimiboyX]

Before we go there, please remember that :-

1. Inter Milan are in the Champions League final with similar system.

2. Leverkusen won the Bundesliga with a similar system.

3. Atalanta are a very good attacking side with a similar system.

Before everyone goes system-phobic.

They have the players for it. We have the players for something else.

It should be the manager's job to figure out what that is short-term and find a way to transition at a more realistic pace to the way he wants to play, instead of shoehorning them all into it from day one.

I've nothing against Amorim personally, it just increasingly feels like he's miles out of his depth here. I hope he goes back to Portugal, or wherever else outside of the Prem, and carries on his good work from before somewhere better-equipped for it, before we blow another 2 years' transfer budget on specialist wing backs and no. 10s only to find out that he wasn't the chosen one.

 

[Hammondo]

They have the players for it. We have the players for something else.

It should be the manager's job to figure out what that is short-term and find a way to transition at a more realistic pace to the way he wants to play, instead of shoehorning them all into it from day one.

I've nothing against Amorim personally, it just increasingly feels like he's miles out of his depth here. I hope he goes back to Portugal, or wherever else outside of the Prem, and carries on his good work from before somewhere better-equipped for it, before we blow another 2 years' transfer budget on specialist wing backs and no. 10s only to find out that he wasn't the chosen one.

For a club that doesn't have any sort of a football philosophy, no ingrained understanding, its just a nothing step to do that. We go nowhere, even Ole said he couldn't play the style of football he wanted the team to play, and that the counter attacking football was his adapting to his team, and it has 0 progression. Just like with LvG and Rangnick, with a team like this, you either commit or make no progress.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Anyone saying that Amorim would have been sacked if it wasn't for the Europa League is missing the point that our progression in that competition is a significant contributing factor in our league form - particularly over the last couple of months. Part of that is psychological, and another part is pragmatic. I seem to remember a similar thing playing out the season that we won it under Mourinho, and this year it has been exacerbated by injury, lack of attacking options, and a manager trying to implement a new system midway through a season. Even with that said having just one prolific striker would have made a huge difference this season - Hojland cost us again today, and it has been the story of so many games this season.

From January onwards it has been clear that winning the Europa League is the key to the regeneration of the club, both on and off the pitch. Without the massive influx of cash, and the ability to attract a higher calibre of player that CL football brings, any kind of revolution is going to have to be incremental and based largely on developing youngsters and taking punts on players that other top clubs would probably pass on. With CL football I genuinely believe that we could be back challenging in the top 6 next season, no problem at all. For that reason these league games are the deadest of dead rubbers now, it's frustrating but necessary.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Conte won the prem with it, what matters is the personnel

Chelsea had finished 10th the season before. Kante and Alonso got signed in the summer and Chelsea went on to win by 13 points. It was Conte's first season

 

[2 man midfield]

Chelsea had finished 10th the season before. Kante and Alonso got signed in the summer and Chelsea went on to win by 13 points. It was Conte's first season

What’s your point?

 

[Pjisared]

Top 2 worst seasons in our history

I’m

No league win in seven games. 5 defeats, 2 draws. Last win against the almighty Leicester…

Amorim got it right.
We are the worst team in Uniteds history

 

[Guv77]

I’m

Amorim got it right.
We are the worst team in Uniteds history

With the worst manager in United history statistically.

 

[stepic]

Anyone saying that Amorim would have been sacked if it wasn't for the Europa League is missing the point that our progression in that competition is a significant contributing factor in our league form - particularly over the last couple of months. Part of that is psychological, and another part is pragmatic.

Yep. A simple fact lost on many.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Conte won the prem with it, what matters is the personnel

And the manager ….. that’s still 50/50 at the moment.

 

[hellhunter]

Yep. A simple fact lost on many.

Because we were storming the league before we started prioritising the EL?

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Because we were storming the league before we started prioritising the EL?

Exactly, any excuse will go for some now-a-days. God help this lot if we do make the CL next season. We best prioritise one of them now so we can prep the media we aren’t good enough to play in both.

 

[DJ_21]

Before we go there, please remember that :-

1. Inter Milan are in the Champions League final with similar system.

2. Leverkusen won the Bundesliga with a similar system.

3. Atalanta are a very good attacking side with a similar system.

Before everyone goes system-phobic.

Exactly. The system isn’t the problem. The players and personnel is. We just have far to many sloppy players who can’t pass a ball to save there life’s. We’ve got players with very low footballing intelligence.

 

[lolok]

Don't care

^^ This. I didn't even bother to watch, because I knew the team wouldn't show up. The team's focus is on Europe, and quite frankly, mentally they have checked out of EPL games.

Guess what, they aren't going to show up and play well the next 2 EPL games either-- so it's funny seeing people get bent out of shape after a loss--- like it's some surprise. The smart people on here have been betting against United in the league and have been making a killing. I'll be shocked if they win either of their 2 games, because they will not risk the starting 11 vs Tottenham in the Chelsea game, and the Villa game will likely have 3-4 youth players and the players will be hungover after beating Tottenham.

 

[stepic]

Because we were storming the league before we started prioritising the EL?

Players were still getting used to the system earlier on in the reign.

Theres plenty of mitigating factors, least of all a lot of these players just ain’t cut out for possession based technical football.

 

[wolvored]

Disgraceful. Went today for the first time in 7 years and will be another 7 years if we play as shit as this.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Because we were storming the league before we started prioritising the EL?

Exactly, Europa became a priority by default because we were hanging around 15th in the league. Those were the good days, we’re 16th now.

 

[justsomebloke]

Anyone saying that Amorim would have been sacked if it wasn't for the Europa League is missing the point that our progression in that competition is a significant contributing factor in our league form - particularly over the last couple of months. Part of that is psychological, and another part is pragmatic. I seem to remember a similar thing playing out the season that we won it under Mourinho, and this year it has been exacerbated by injury, lack of attacking options, and a manager trying to implement a new system midway through a season. Even with that said having just one prolific striker would have made a huge difference this season - Hojland cost us again today, and it has been the story of so many games this season.

From January onwards it has been clear that winning the Europa League is the key to the regeneration of the club, both on and off the pitch. Without the massive influx of cash, and the ability to attract a higher calibre of player that CL football brings, any kind of revolution is going to have to be incremental and based largely on developing youngsters and taking punts on players that other top clubs would probably pass on. With CL football I genuinely believe that we could be back challenging in the top 6 next season, no problem at all. For that reason these league games are the deadest of dead rubbers now, it's frustrating but necessary.

Don't buy it. It's too simple, too convenient. It simply isn't a plausible explanation for being THIS bad in the PL.

 

[Houdini]

Match: 2/10
My nap during the second half: 10/10

 

[R0nald0]

For me, Amorim has a free hit this season.

Joined mid-season and was vocal about how he wanted to join in the summer to have a proper transfer window and pre-season
He was hired for his philosophy and formation, but doesn't have the players for it

Irrespective of what happens in Bilbao, I would give him the backing in the transfer window and the entirety of next season. If we pull the plug too quickly, we lose another 18 months. With the right players, I think the system, and Ruben, can be a success and give us progression

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

New players need to be brought in to the first team every year , whether those are academy graduates or imports, it’s the same every year and with every manager. Only Poch at Spurs made zero roster changes in the summer, that I can think of, and that wasn’t his choice. Amorim needs how many to get this team going?

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

The fact that 3-5-2 can work because it worked for Chelsea and Conte years back doesn't seem that relevant to me.

The fact that a manager has one of the biggest clubs in the world in 16th with players worth hundreds of millions playing the most boring football imaginable with players not really caring is more relevant.

 

[Houdini]

I just dont get the "we prioritised EL" excuse when most of the starting 11 from this math will start in the final. Well, except Yoro who is injured of course... We could have played the reserves the like sof Obi and co. the result would be similar maybe slightly worse but at least the exuse would be justified.

 

[Houdini]

For me, Amorim has a free hit this season.

Joined mid-season and was vocal about how he wanted to join in the summer to have a proper transfer window and pre-season
He was hired for his philosophy and formation, but doesn't have the players for it

Irrespective of what happens in Bilbao, I would give him the backing in the transfer window and the entirety of next season. If we pull the plug too quickly, we lose another 18 months. With the right players, I think the system, and Ruben, can be a success and give us progression

The thing without CL next season, what should we expect? Delap to save us from relefation? Most of the starting eleven ill be the same. Bruno, Ugarte, Amad, Yoro, De Ligt, Dorgu will all be starters. Garnacho, Mount, Maguire, Mainoo probably too. Feck maybe even Onana. He had 6 months and we see no improvement, we are worse. Do we have the money to buy him almost a new starting eleven to fit the system without a CL? EL final will be the key.

 

[Salfordlad70]

There was a thread recently and we were predicting how many points we’d take from the remaining 6 or 7 games. I predicted 4 points at and had West Ham down as 3 points. I rather hoped we’d finish better, but I never imagined how far off a cliff our league form would fall.

I keep telling myself that we’re focussing solely on the EL and maybe that’s in some part true, but losing is a terrible habit. Remarkably It doesn’t seem to be effecting our performances in Europe and if we beat Spurs, this awful season in the league will be somewhat forgotten. I would feel more confident about the final if we actually had some momentum. Spurs are in the same position and also seem to have aborted the PL campaign and so that evens things out a little.

As for today, that was a disgraceful performance yet again. Match going fans are spaffing their hard earned cash up the wall and the players should be embarrassed. They’re capable of so much better and yet they’ve been serving up this crap for so long now it’s not acceptable.

 

[JediSith]

There is a very real chance of us finishing 17th in the Premier League. 17th! Imagine if any of the promoted teams had been vaguely competitive...

The Europa League was never a "major" trophy by virtue of the fact that the best teams aren't in it and it is even weaker this season because it doesn't hoover up the Champions League dropouts. It is an absolute backdoor route into the Champions League for one of two teams who 100% do not deserve to be anywhere near the Champions League based on the vast majority of their performances this season.

I just don't think people are appreciating the scale of how bad things currently are. Talking like we're about 9th or something.

But the thing is. If we win the Europa league finishing 17th we are still in a better place next season than if we finished 9th and didn’t win anything.

I agree 16, 17th is appalling. But we have new owners and a new manager who took over when we were 13th. Also for a while now the premier league has not been a priority.

Of course next season prem is a priority.

 

[sammyhol]

Exactly. The system isn’t the problem. The players and personnel is. We just have far to many sloppy players who can’t pass a ball to save there life’s. We’ve got players with very low footballing intelligence.

I dont think anyone can honestly say 343 is an inherently bad system that can't work.

Had we got a squad with lots of technical CBs, mobile + technical midfielders, and natural wing backs... but completely lacking any decent, direct, ball carrying wide attackers and natural full backs.... It would make complete sense. But we have the opposite!

The comparable situation would be having that squad make up, and Amorim coming in and trying to play 4231. It just makes no sense.

The point is, in the same way as ETHs 41----41, Amorim is trying to implement a system that is completely ill fitting his squad.

And for me, it is enormous gamble to hand him a blank cheque to rebuild an entire squad around a system he has not been able to demonstrate as anything like effective in the PL.

 

[justsomebloke]

But the thing is. If we win the Europa league finishing 17th we are still in a better place next season than if we finished 9th and didn’t win anything.

I agree 16, 17th is appalling. But we have new owners and a new manager who took over when we were 13th. Also for a while now the premier league has not been a priority.

Of course next season prem is a priority.

Really? Our starting point next season doesn't come from where we finished, it comes from how good we are. And if we were now 9th, we would be a much, much better team than we are. In fact, we'd be nearly as good as we were in our previous worst moments of the post-SAF era. Almost as good as when LVG took over. Almost on the level we were when Rangnick packed his bags and left. Nearly as good as we were last season, which was our worst of the PL era. I know that seems an impossibly high bar right now, but a man can dream can't he?

Also, Amorim doesn't sound anywhere near as relaxed about this as a lot of posters here.

 

[DJ_21]

I dont think anyone can honestly say 343 is an inherently bad system that can't work.

Had we got a squad with lots of technical CBs, mobile + technical midfielders, and natural wing backs... but completely lacking any decent, direct, ball carrying wide attackers and natural full backs.... It would make complete sense. But we have the opposite!

The comparable situation would be having that squad make up, and Amorim coming in and trying to play 4231. It just makes no sense.

The point is, in the same way as ETHs 41----41, Amorim is trying to implement a system that is completely ill fitting his squad.

And for me, it is enormous gamble to hand him a blank cheque to rebuild an entire squad around a system he has not been able to demonstrate as anything like effective in the PL.

Another thing we have to think about is if he gets to rebuild the team in a 3-4-3 and it doesn’t work out for him do we then target other managers that play this system?

 

[Dec9003]

Another thing we have to think about is if he gets to rebuild the team in a 3-4-3 and it doesn’t work out for him do we then target other managers that play this system?

Ideally we’ll target players that can play multiple systems. We need players with the right characteristics.

 

[DJ_21]

Ideally we’ll target players that can play multiple systems. We need players with the right characteristics.

That would make sense.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Because we were storming the league before we started prioritising the EL?

Exactly, any excuse will go for some now-a-days. God help this lot if we do make the CL next season. We best prioritise one of them now so we can prep the media we aren’t good enough to play in both.

He only came in November and we were in 14th place! Given that it was made clear from the start that Amorim was going to implement a new system I think it was pretty obvious as soon as we qualified for the knockout stages that the Europa League was going to be our only possible route to the CL. As time moves on that becomes more of an influence psychologically and pragmatically - particularly with a squad as lacking in key players as ours.

Exactly, Europa became a priority by default because we were hanging around 15th in the league. Those were the good days, we’re 16th now.

Personally I'd prefer being 16th and in the Europa League final, with a good chance of CL football next season, to just being in 15th place, but maybe that's just me?

Don't buy it. It's too simple, too convenient. It simply isn't a plausible explanation for being THIS bad in the PL.

As I said, that is just part of the story, there are so many other mitigating factors to take into account too - such as implementing a new system, having one of the worst centre forwards in the league, losing Amad and Zirkzee to injury etc

 

[Jaap]

For the first time, I am fearing relegation next season. Some on here need to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He only came in November and we were in 14th place! Given that it was made clear from the start that Amorim was going to implement a new system I think it was pretty obvious as soon as we qualified for the knockout stages that the Europa League was going to be our only possible route to the CL. As time moves on that becomes more of an influence psychologically and pragmatically - particularly with a squad as lacking in key players as ours.



Personally I'd prefer being 16th and in the Europa League final, with a good chance of CL football next season, to just being in 15th place, but maybe that's just me?

As I said, that is just part of the story, there are so many other mitigating factors to take into account too - such as implementing a new system, having one of the worst centre forwards in the league, losing Amad and Zirkzee to injury etc

He was hardly ripping it up before his injury jeez.

Amorim has already said we can’t expect to cope with PL and CL next year. Which would you like to prioritise?

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

He was hardly ripping it up before his injury jeez.

Amorim has already said we can’t expect to cope with PL and CL next year. Which would you like to prioritise?

He was improving rapidly, but either way it was one less attacker in a squad that was already desperately short on goals.

This season getting to the CL is of huge importance in terms of rebuilding the squad, so qualifying for that was well worth prioritising. Next season we should prioritise the league and treat the CL as another cup. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about that?

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He was improving rapidly, but either way it was one less attacker in a squad that was already desperately short on goals.

This season getting to the CL is of huge importance in terms of rebuilding the squad, so qualifying for that was well worth prioritising. Next season we should prioritise the league and treat the CL as another cup. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about that?

Saying that it is easier than doing it. We haven’t finished this low due to prioritising the EL, it’s because we are a terrible football team that no one can say will be any better next season apart from hoping.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Saying that it is easier than doing it. We haven’t finished this low due to prioritising the EL, it’s because we are a terrible football team that no one can say will be any better next season apart from hoping.

Are you seriously saying that we wouldn't have finished any higher this season if a) we weren't prioritising the EL, b) we had a decent centre-forward and c) we weren't implementing a new system midway through the season??

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Are you seriously saying that we wouldn't have finished any higher this season if a) we weren't prioritising the EL, b) we had a decent centre-forward and c) we weren't implementing a new system midway through the season??

A) we shouldn’t need to prioritise the EL over the PL full stop.
B) a better goal scorer would be nice but we have general trouble creating chances due to the system and other players so it’s no guarantee
C) I’d expect to be playing the new system better after 40 games or so which we are definitely not so why is a pre season expected to turn it around

 

[NewbieRed]

Amorim's post-match comments were perfect. He understands that the players' mentality is more important than the system, or their quality, or the fact that the club is in a Europa League final. It was obvious today that the players weren't bothered about losing. The lack of urgency in everything they did was horrifying to behold.

I have my issues with Amorim's system, and I note that only two teams have won the EPL with a back three (Chelsea and City), and I think the great managers tend to be more flexible than Amorim. But it is obvious that he's a very good manager indeed and understands the problems at the club and we should all hope he stays long enough to fix them.

I'm reminded of the team Fergie inherited in 1986. There were quite a few good players in it. I liked Ron Atkinson and thought his teams were capable of decent football at times. But the culture was absolutely rotten, the team had a losing mentality and Fergie had to change almost every single one of them before he started winning things.

I think it's a similar situation now and my fear is that Amorim will resign in the middle of next season if he doesn't get a response out of the players.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

A) we shouldn’t need to prioritise the EL over the PL full stop.
B) a better goal scorer would be nice but we have general trouble creating chances due to the system and other players so it’s no guarantee
C) I’d expect to be playing the new system better after 40 games or so which we are definitely not so why is a pre season expected to turn it around

Amorim inherited a shitshow, and the club is close to financial meltdown - the CL will be a major lifeline and prioritising the EL has been the right decision. Saying we 'shouldn't need to' is ignoring all the relevant context.

So you do genuinely think that a decent striker wouldn't have made any difference this season? Sounds a bit like you don't want to accept any kind of mitigating factors cos you've already made your mind up on Amorim.

With regard to C, I think it's pretty clear that having a preseason - with the influx of new faces that it brings, and the time to work on systems and strategy, would be far preferable to starting mid season?