What do you mean "What"? It's blatantly obvious.
The notion that Ole's squad was 2nd place level even when badly coached and the present one is (potentially) a 17th place squad despite being well coached is beyond ridiculous.
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1 win in 19 against non-relegated teams.
- Thread starter SER19
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The notion that Ole's squad was 2nd place level even when badly coached and the present one is (potentially) a 17th place squad despite being well coached is beyond ridiculous.
Yep, we needs players who are both athletic and technical. At the moment we've somehow managed to put together a squad with no athleticism or technique
We also had a lot less depth of quality in the squad. Most obviously at CB, but also at FB and the wings. At RB, the next option after AWB was Timothy Fosu-Mensah. Now it's Mazraoui. If Rashford and Greenwood weren't playing on the flanks, there was Daniel James and Facundo Pellistri. Now, if we were still playing 4231, it would be Garnacho and Antony as the second stringers (assuming Rashford was still around).
Watching the games last weekend specifically the Chelsea, Arsenal and Newcastle matches we seem so much slower than all the teams involved.
It is like the game got faster and we didn't.
It is like the game got faster and we didn't.
I always thought when Ineos came in they'd replicate the Red Bull style - Sir Jim had spoken a few times about them and Ragnick, Brailsford, Vivell all know each other + it's a cheaper model to hire for because the most expensive players tend to be the more 'technical' ones. Someone like Dorgu seems really in line with that recruitment strategy, the strange thing for me is it seems a bit at odds with what Amorim wants to do. This summer will be intriguing to see the profiles of who we bring in, whether they are young and dynamic players who are raw (like Dorgu) or if they revert to buying established expensive names.
At what number will there be a consensus that this is so unacceptable it's hard to put into words?
West Ham hadn't a win in 8 and they absolutely cruised by us.
West Ham hadn't a win in 8 and they absolutely cruised by us.
But we had a higher xG?
Some would say.
Some would say.
The standard support from his loyal fans will be less so again today. Surely it must be dawning on them that he is out of his depth in this league. This game in Particular just highlighted how poor the system is as we couldn’t work through this West Ham team. We made their life easier by again playing an open midfield. It was way too easy for them.
In recent weeks weve heard that Brentford and Bournemouth are good well drilled sides. West Ham are awful and couldnt buy a win, and they just had their easiest game of the season.
The Europa league is doing massive bits for him because as a PL manager he is, so far, among the worst performing managers in the history of the competition.
This season was 100% going to be a disaster from the moment Ten Hag wasn't sacked after the FA Cup final, but this is far worse than anyone could ever have expected.
This season was 100% going to be a disaster from the moment Ten Hag wasn't sacked after the FA Cup final, but this is far worse than anyone could ever have expected.
The midfield 2 doesn’t have any chance in this league and didn’t for more a decade now. Also, Bruno won’t work in any pair configuration, he’ll always be a liability physically and will handicap us massively, especially in two man midfield. Amorim is genuinely out of his depth if he can’t see this, and should walk even if we win Europa at this point.
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26 games played in the Premier League: won six, drawn six, lost FOURTEEN (!). Disastrous is putting it lightly. 3-2-7 at home. Woeful.
Horrific.
Amorim has a huge job in the league to recover us.
We lose a feckloads under him. So it’s justified. I can’t think of a top level manager who has ever recovered from such a bad start to their career at a club.
Amorim has a huge job in the league to recover us.
We lose a feckloads under him. So it’s justified. I can’t think of a top level manager who has ever recovered from such a bad start to their career at a club.
The thing is, we're finishing the season so bad, there won't be any positivity going into pre-season. We can't replace the whole squad and start over. Most of these players will be here next year and will be regular starters too. What kind of respect will Amorim command with a record like that? With performances like that?
On the bright side, we won't see 5-3-whatever ever again (hopefully) after he gets sacked and that will be great.
On the bright side, we won't see 5-3-whatever ever again (hopefully) after he gets sacked and that will be great.
There isn't a player in the team that looks remotely comfortable in the role they're currently playing in the team, yet we see the same thing week after week in the PL in the vague hope that it all comes together after a few signings in the summer.
Forget even speaking on the quality of the players or the coaching staff, I've just never seen a top team operate like this.
Forget even speaking on the quality of the players or the coaching staff, I've just never seen a top team operate like this.
Home wins were against Ipswich, Southampton and Everton (who were in the relegation zone when we beat them). Its 1 win in 10 at home against the teams left in PL.
Sigh, updated again, and again we lose with whatever is less than a whimper.
we could have played until midnight and not scored tonight. Same shit every game.
12 goals in 18 games against non relegated sides. Think about that. This isn't normal, we've let it become normal and we keep making excuses for it - excuses that are stretched more thin every week
We have a rate of 21 points across 32 games of a season where the 6 games vs relegated teams are removed. So next season, if we repeat this, and dont win 6/6 against the 'bottom 3' we will instead be part of the bottom 3. How is anybody still justifying this. Ten Hag's horror show was to finish 8th and we all thought that was fully rock bottom.
One thing that has astonished me about supporting United over the last 12 years. We keep thinking that we've hit rock bottom, and can't possibly sink any lower, and that things can't possibly get any worse. Yet, amazingly, they do end up getting worse.
I fear we're going to end up in the Championship at this rate.
I fear we're going to end up in the Championship at this rate.
Dreadful record.
We haven’t scored - or won - at home in the league since February. We’ve only won thrice at home against non-relegated sides this season - against Fulham, Brentford, and Everton. We haven’t won at home against a non relegated side in five months.
That’s exactly it. We keep finding new ways to get even worse. It’s beyond upsetting. I’d be surprised if we don’t end up getting relegated. We all thought that 2021-22 was awful, but last season was even worse, and this season has been worse still. That’s all within a space of four fecking years. Genuinely impressive in the worst way possible.
And many think changing players makes the difference.
Back five with a double pivot midfield, the only impetus to get the goals comes from the striker and two 10's. The 10's both invert which means they are running into traffic against any organised defence most of the game. The striker can't run into the channels because there's no winger to drag the spaces open.
Systematically it is the worst tactical approach I have ever seen at United. Erik's ozone layer midfield was something but this takes the biscuit. Knockout cup game against Fulham in the FA cup 1-0 down and United still have 5 across the back and two defensive orientated players in the midfield? It's almost comical.
For me rock bottom, lowest ever point of supporting United, is a loss on Wednesday. To compound this season by losing to the only PL team left that is arguably worse than us, would be staggering.
I posted this in the other thread, but we have 23 points from 32 games against the non relegated sides if this continues. We got 16 points from 18 this season against the worst 3 relegated sides in PL history (we didnt even beat them all twice), and that is why we are a premier league team next season. Think about that. We were essentially in a mini league with the worst bottom 3 in history, and managed to haul 16 points to keep us well clear. Any other season and we'd be gone.
Yeah I'd tend to agree. We lose that and we are properly fecked.
Of course better players will make us better. These players look shit in every formation. Playing to their strengths is like having a guide dog that can’t see.
Thirded. We’ll be screwed for the foreseeable future. We won’t be back in the top four for about a decade if we don’t win that game.
INEOS needs to take a long hard look at the facts: We are playing like a team that's at the risk of the drop next season. If they continue with this approach next season then how can we expect not to be fighting the drop by May next year..?
Never thought I'd ever see a season like this at United ever honestly. How on earth do you mismanage the biggest club in the world so much that we've got to this point?
I'm hoping this is genuinely rock bottom. But I don't think anything would surprise me anymore.
I genuinely think a relegation is the only thing that can shock this club into proper change. It would probably finish us but nothing else seems to work. We’re languishing just above the relegation zone and just seem to be going through the motions. Losing games of football has become the norm at this club. The days of it being a crisis if we lost back to back games under Fergie have long gone, it’s absolutely criminal how much our standards have eroded in the last decade.
It’s the fecking Glazers. Imagine telling somebody who has just woken up from a coma into which they fell in 2013 - or, even better, 2008 - that we’re this bad. They’d look at you like you had two heads.Never thought I'd ever see a season like this at United ever honestly. How on earth do you mismanage the biggest club in the world so much that we've got to this point?
I'm hoping this is genuinely rock bottom. But I don't think anything would surprise me anymore.
De Ligt and Yoro have been solid all season, Maguire has been very attentive (as he has demonstrated previously in a back three). When United have had the fit defence available games have still been lost with a frequent occurrence to concede goals.
I am not in any way convinced that the argument of player quality vs tactical sufficiency is one that will hold up for a rookie manager who's in his early 40's and married to a system he's won no meaningful competitive competition with at any level that can be respected when translating over to measuring how he'll perform at United.
If Pep Guardiola who come off winning the UCL, Bundesliga and La Liga had the attitude that Amorim has by all accounts it's justified to move things around and endure some hardship in buying into his ideas that are reputable because they have been successful. (Though that difference is obvious Pep's hardship is top four, Amorims is lower league table dress)
It's not a coincidence that United's two worst league placed finishes in recent seasons has come from mediocre managers who have done well in big fish small pond environments and we are all scratching our heads in disbelief at the performance and genuine standards the team is demonstrating.
The issue of United remains the same as it has always been hiring managers who don't have the capabilities to match the clubs ambitions. Go and compare United's managers of the last 10 years with PSG's and tell me which team truly has underperformed relative to expectations and which team has deservedly achieved what they have on the basis of the managerial quality. The list is as follows:
PSG
Enrique
Galtier
Poch
Tuchel
Emery
Blanc
Ancelotti
United
Moyes
LVG
Mourinho
Solskjaer
Ragnick
Erik Ten Hag
Amorim
The thing that makes me lose hope is that we’ve tried everything:
*Moyes - Premier League proven, managed to keep Everton at a respectable level for 11 years. Downside: obviously not good enough, mid-table quality at best.
*van Gaal - had success with Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and the Netherlands national team, as well as guiding AZ to their first ever (I’m pretty sure) Eredivisie title. Downside - was past his best, he was 62 when we hired him.
*Mourinho - serial winner. Won the Champions League with Porto. Went to Chelsea, won two Premier Leagues, an FA Cup, and a League Cup. Won the treble with Inter, and La Liga with Real Madrid. Went back to Chelsea, and won the league again. Downside: was past his best, as the wheels fell completely off in the third season of his second spell at Chelsea.
*Solskjær - club legend. Did fantastic as caretaker. Downside - was absolutely horrendous after we appointed him permanently, which lasted for eight months until we signed Bruno. Won feck all during his time as manager, although this was after we appointed him. Did well as manager of Molde, but the Norwegian league is way weaker than the PL.
*Rangnick - very respected. Father of gegenpressing. Downside - hadn’t managed for over a decade.
*ten Hag - did very well with Ajax. Managed to make them the best team in the Netherlands again. Downside - as our manager, played an absolutely ridiculous system and signed some absolutely honking players.
*Amorim - probably the best young coach in Europe. Our first manager to not be appointed by the Glazers since Sir Alex himself. Only turned 40 in January. Managed to guide Sporting CP to their first title since 2002.
I’ve not counted Giggs, Carrick, or Van Nistelrooy, as their respective spells as caretaker were too short to be counted.
Like, the thing is, I’m completely fecking lost. I thought that both EtH and Amorim would guide us out of the dark ages, but we’re even more entrenched in them than we were three years ago. And I can’t see for the life of me who can carry us out of it, if we do sack Amorim. Maybe Inzaghi, but that’s it. Nobody else seems like they can turn it around and get us back to where we, and the club, want to be - title challengers and winners.
I mean yeah, some of our players are decent. But we have the worst goalkeeper and starting striker in the league. And that’s a big part of why we’re pants. If we got a better striker, we’d shoot up the league. None of our attacking players, except Amad and Bruno, could score in a brothel.
If I’m Ineos, Amorim goes with or without the Europa cup. We’ve seen enough. Yes the players are rubbish but decent managers know how to adapt. Amorim as much as I love the guy, seems to be a one-trick pony and even that “trick” isn’t working at United.
You want to say, “it is only Spurs,” but we can’t beat PL teams of even this level.
Yep. 'Lads, it's Spurs' is no longer applicable.
It's so sad that I would be more confident for Wednesday with this squad if Jose, Ole or even ETH were in charge for that one game. Not even trying 4 at the back just a few times already has hurt our chances.
Shambolic, there isn't a shred of evidence that suggests he should remain in a job. If we lose on Wednesday he's done surely.
The thing is, our European form has actually been fantastic and much improved. The contrast between our form in Europe and domestically couldn’t be any sharper.
You haven't really hired a top manager in their prime ala Real Madrid with Mourinho, City/Bayern with Guardiola, or Liverpool with Klopp. Those tend to be the most foolproof appointments.
Beyond that there's taking gambles, but clubs usually move on from those quickly.