How good was peak Thomas Müller?

Scored big goals, won big trophies, Muller’d Barcelona.
WC at his peak, simply due to his fantastic output.

Lyricist said:

In the “most unique player” topic I’ve frequently seen him being mentioned for his understanding of movement and positioning while seemingly having the physical appearance of a Sunday league player (both in physical build as well as in the way he runs/moves). Additionally the praises of his movement are mostly followed up by any of the following three: “but his dribbling/touch/skills looked below average”.

So in his peak, what was his actual level aside of his movement? A player who didn’t look threatening when you saw him but always found a way to contribute in different ways.

Click to expand...

When I read this and the Sunday league look bit, if I dint know the year or if you hadn't included a name, I would think you were talking about Matt Le Tissier.

Anyway, think memory serves right, his form really dropped after Euro 16 when Carlo Ancelotti started playing him out of position and Conman was being preferred over him and you can see it reflected in his goals return. I remember, not on this board, but on the clubs website from 2013 for us to sign this guy every window.

So to answer you're question, yeah he was one of these players that had the look of awkwardness about them, but could destroy you in a second, that's skill in my book and not just luck.

He just makes the players around him better. I am pretty sure Bayern‘s goal output is higher with him in the lineup, even though it is not him getting the goal or assist. He is constantly dragging defenders out of position and him playing off the main striker is Bayern‘s best setup.

You could always expect the unexpected from him. His most dangerous asset was surprising the opponent and somehow getting the ball to be where he wanted it.

His most valuable asset is something we are sorely lacking in MUFC: sheer determination and will to win.

He has always been a good player.

If you watch is performances in the 2010 WC he was immense and his tenacity,determination and finishing was brilliant untill recent years.

Whilst he is a strong player he has never been blessed with pace and from a technical standpoint was average however his mental attributes are amongst the best I’ve ever seen especially when he first broke through, to that in a young player is incredibly rare.

Might seem off topic but anyone watched an anime called Kuroko no basket ? . Different sport but Muller reminds me of the main character like a phantom 6th man that makes the team around him better and fits in so well with the rest of his teammates type of players that are crucial in winning the trophies but Muller is a master of this to a whole different level.

He has a setback since 2016 with some phases of repose since then. He was very good as a second striker, when other players (mainly Ribery and Robben) caused chaos and the defenders had to focus on them and the main striker (Gomez, Mandzu, Lewy). He has the "nose" to take advantage of theese situations. I don´t think he is making the players around him better, rather he needs a special environment to perform well. No wonder, his performances got weaker since "Robbery" aren´t that good anymore.

Acrobat7 said:

He just makes the players around him better. I am pretty sure Bayern‘s goal output is higher with him in the lineup, even though it is not him getting the goal or assist. He is constantly dragging defenders out of position and him playing off the main striker is Bayern‘s best setup.

Click to expand...

The difference to playing him or not was 0.8 goals a match last season in all competitions - and around March it was 0.8 in the Bundesliga for this season. Even the goals against are better when he plays. And it is not a question of his own goal/assist output.

Ooge_ said:

He has a setback since 2016 with some phases of repose since then. He was very good as a second striker, when other players (mainly Ribery and Robben) caused chaos and the defenders had to focus on them and the main striker (Gomez, Mandzu, Lewy). He has the "nose" to take advantage of theese situations. I don´t think he is making the players around him better, rather he needs a special environment to perform well. No wonder, his performances got weaker since "Robbery" aren´t that good anymore.

Click to expand...

Since atleast 2013 Müllers numbers were better without Robben on the pitch than they were with him - but Robben's improved a lot with him. I could imagine that the effect you talk about was like this at the beginning of his career - but not later.

I think that his role has a lot more influence for his performance. Ancelotti let him play on the right wing like a normal winger - that did not do him any good and in that period (beginning of the season 2016/17) Lewy not either. When he played as hanging striker in that season he and Lewy usually played well. He played well during the time Heynckes was the coach - had a goal or an assist about every 75 minute. In the first part of last season Kovac played him as an 8 too deep on the field. That did not do him any good - and the team not either. The changes they made end of November were to play him higher again and to play with 2 players on the 6. After that - especially since January the offense functioned very well even if both Lewy and Müller together scored 12 goals less than their expected goals values and were really bad at converting chances. But - there were usually atleast 4 or 5 big chances each match.

Not very.

World class. Not even debatable.

Believe Jonny Evans said he was the hardest player he ever came up against, largely because he 'knew when not to move'.

Good enough to win every major trophy in club and international football, bar the European cup. Key role in each of those teams as well .

I mean, third best player at worst in one of the most dominant teams of the last 30 years, third best player at worst in a team that won the WC, best young player at another world cup(in which he finished joint top scorer)....

Also not technically average at all. Awkward, but his touch, control and weight and striking are great. Better technically than Bale for example

Only 3 years older than Lingard. Incredible really, it seems like he's been around for ages!

His positioning and forward movement is as good as I've seen.

giorno said:

I mean, third best player at worst in one of the most dominant teams of the last 30 years, third best player at worst in a team that won the WC, best young player at another world cup(in which he finished joint top scorer)....

Also not technically average at all. Awkward, but his touch, control and weight and striking are great. Better technically than Bale for example

Click to expand...

That's quite a stretch, isn't it?

Robben, Ribery, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Kroos and Neuer were clearly better than him IMO, Alaba and Boateng at least on the same level.

For Germany, there are also Özil, Hummels and Reus on top of that.

Rates highly when he was at his best, think people’s judgement of him has aged poorly unfortunately.

Magnificent player, technically gifted yet grafty as feck.

A serial winner.

World class at his best. Wasn't understood by any because of his lack of tekkers

Was he really World Class at some point?

Apparantly EA had to add more categories in the attributes part of the game as they wanted to rank him high, but couldn’t manage it with what they marked players on as he didn’t score that high in many of them

There was a rumour van Gaal tried to buy him for United from Bayern, think it was for 100m. If we had got him back then

GifLord said:

Was he really World Class at some point?

Click to expand...

Wasn't he top scorer in two world cups? Surely with that type of record he's got to be

Oldyella said:

Wasn't he top scorer in two world cups? Surely with that type of record he's got to be

Click to expand...

He was typically German. Ruthless, effective and yes world class.

Unique player for sure. I still remember his goal against Chelsea in the CL final. I can’t think of another player who would score that kind of goal.

That is typically Müller for his opponents - and Hummels better remembers this as he is now playing for the opponent again...
You first think you have him in the bag but then... (the video had english undertitles)

Richman's Lingard. His outstanding attributes are off-ball movement, attacking instinct, finishing, courage/confidence/composure/arrogance, and luck. He possess good technical skills too. At his peak he could play for any teams in the world apart from Real Madrid and Barcelona.

High IQ player with very good statistical output. I mean, he won a CL and World Cup, that's kind of being world-class.

SATA said:

There was a rumour van Gaal tried to buy him for United from Bayern, think it was for 100m. If we had got him back then

Click to expand...

Would he have improved us or would we have ruined him?

KW2006 said:

Richman's Lingard. His outstanding attributes are off-ball movement, attacking instinct, finishing, courage/confidence/composure/arrogance, and luck. He possess good technical skills too. At his peak he could play for any teams in the world apart from Real Madrid and Barcelona.

Click to expand...

What!!

One of the most overrated players of all time. Bayern's Pedro Rodriguez. When you have prime Robben and Ribery on the flanks and a striker infront of you occupying the centerbacks of course you gonna chip in some goals. Pep benched him for a reason.

Cait Sith said:

One of the most overrated players of all time. Bayern's Pedro Rodriguez. When you have prime Robben and Ribery on the flanks and a striker infront of you occupying the centerbacks of course you gonna chip in some goals. Pep benched him for a reason.

Click to expand...

Remind me again how many UCLs Pep won with Bayern?

billybee99 said:

Remind me again how many UCLs Pep won with Bayern?

Click to expand...

Remind me how many Bayern won in general in the past 40 years.

Didn't know CL was the measurement for coaching quality.

Sterling Archer said:

Good enough to win every major trophy in club and international football, bar the European cup. Key role in each of those teams as well .

Click to expand...

He won it in 2013?
Perhaps you meant the EURO?

Cait Sith said:

One of the most overrated players of all time. Bayern's Pedro Rodriguez. When you have prime Robben and Ribery on the flanks and a striker infront of you occupying the centerbacks of course you gonna chip in some goals. Pep benched him for a reason.

Click to expand...

Pep benched him very seldom - and when he did because he went for the more solid midfield with 3 central midfielders - that never functioned and the offensives never scored goals.

It is not only about goals...

Hound Dog said:

He won it in 2013?
Perhaps you meant the EURO?

Click to expand...

Right. I usually call it the Champions League to help differentiate. So referring to the uefa European championship or euro cup or whatever the international tournament is called officially

German Lingard

deafepl said:

German Lingard

Click to expand...

I wish the English one was as good.

One of the greatest final third merchants to ever do it, really.

People can caveat how he had player x and player y by his side, but he did it everywhere. Bundesliga, the CL, (two) World Cups...

The history of football for nearly a decade is the story of Messi and Cristiano as players, and Barca, Bayern, Real as teams winning 6 CLs in a row and appearing in 10 in a row, with their players mostly forming Germany and Spain who were dominant in international football.

Shoutout to the Juve defenders (Italy finalists in 2012 too) and Simeone's Wimbledon as the top antagonists and 2nd tier of the game basically (Godin, Gimenez led Uruguay to Copa 2015) too.

Only the occasional well organized and talented team like Mourinho's Inter, 2012 Chelsea and Portugal in 2016 with Pepe and Cristiano broke through to win anything of note.

So, anyone who was a middle starter for those Spain/German teams like Muller, who wasn't as good as Neuer or Schweinsteiger but was probably in a 2nd tier with Kroos, Ozil, the center backs and Lahm (first tier quality but tough to dominate games at fullback without being a Dani Alves level attacker), was a top 20-25 or so footballer in the world basically by definition.