The team that beat Arsenal 8-2

SadlerMUFC · Sep 25, 2019

I would absolutely love to see us go back to a classic 4-4-2

AWB----------Lindeloff--------Maguire---------Shaw
James--------McTominay----Fred?-------Left footed winger
----------------Martial-----Rashford-------------------

It makes sense to me. We have 2 very good defensive FB's who don't offer a whole lot going forward. So to counter that I would like a hard working right footed right winger and hard working left footed left winger. Of course, they can change sides through out the game just like Giggs and CR7 used to do. This would also give us 2 guys in the box to feed on crosses and they could be deadly on the counter attack. I just don't get why we are so dead set against playing this system anymore. It took English teams so long to get out of this system when the rest of Europe was playing some sort/variation of a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and now it seems we are too stuborn to go back to what used to work so well for us. I know some will say it's an outdated formation, but there are still lots of teams that use it and use it successfully. It would also mean that we have less possession against the smaller clubs which would do well to open them up for counter attacks...

Sir Scott McToMinay · Sep 25, 2019

1.SAF
2.Freak result and game
3.Look at that Arsenal team and particularly the defense:
Jenkinson, Traore, Djourou and Koscielny
4.That Wayne Rooney would be our best player by miles upon miles now and would have given us a cutting edge that we are so severely lacking.

romufc · Sep 25, 2019

SadlerMUFC said:
I would absolutely love to see us go back to a classic 4-4-2

AWB----------Lindeloff--------Maguire---------Shaw
James--------McTominay----Fred?-------Left footed winger
----------------Martial-----Rashford-------------------

It makes sense to me. We have 2 very good defensive FB's who don't offer a whole lot going forward. So to counter that I would like a hard working right footed right winger and hard working left footed left winger. Of course, they can change sides through out the game just like Giggs and CR7 used to do. This would also give us 2 guys in the box to feed on crosses and they could be deadly on the counter attack. I just don't get why we are so dead set against playing this system anymore. It took English teams so long to get out of this system when the rest of Europe was playing some sort/variation of a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and now it seems we are too stuborn to go back to what used to work so well for us. I know some will say it's an outdated formation, but there are still lots of teams that use it and use it successfully. It would also mean that we have less possession against the smaller clubs which would do well to open them up for counter attacks...

I don't think the 4-4-2 works in a pressing environment where you need the midfield to over power teams. We saw SAF in big games play a 4-4-1-1.

We need alot more fluidity in our team, and when we did play 4-4-2 we had wingers who could cross, we can barely hit a straight pass in the final third now.

We had forwards who could head the ball too

BusbyMalone · Sep 25, 2019

On paper that isn't a great team. Rooney obviously stands out, but that midfield is average. The key thing here is, don't underestimate the power of confidence; it's everything in sport. Just look at City and Liverpool when they step out onto the pitch. Yeah, of course they have great players, but the confidence that they have it palpable. You go out onto the field knowing that you're going to win.

Also, that team fecking worked hard. They were driven and gave their all, which is the least you expect, but doesn't always happen. Look at us now, we have some good players (or at least some talented one's) but they're just so fecking meek. And this is the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of confidence. It turns good, talented players into nervous wrecks until they almost don't even resemble what a professional footballer should look like.

Skills · Sep 25, 2019

Similar team lost 6-1 to City so it wasn't all rosy.

Fluky game to be honest, there's no way Ashley Young scores those two screamers another day and the way Arsenal capitulated was mental

Spark · Sep 25, 2019

It's probably already been mentioned, but the Arsenal team we faced that day were bottom half quality bar Van Persie.

However, regardless that team goes to show the benefit of having cohesion and drive and that we have lacked that significantly since.

Inter Yer Nan · Sep 25, 2019

I think the 2011 was quite a lot better, not to mention that XI didn't have Giggs, Scholes or Carrick, all of whom would walk into our current XI.

adexkola · Sep 25, 2019

People overrate SAF like he was a magician. I mean, he's still the best manager ever, but that was actually a good team, personnel and tactics wise.

Sir Scott McToMinay · Sep 25, 2019

adexkola said:
People overrate SAF like he was a magician. I mean, he's still the best manager ever, but that was actually a good team, personnel and tactics wise.

No, they underrate him if anything, that wasn’t a very good team by United standards nor do I believe any other manager wins the league with that 10-13 United side.

Young, Evans, Smalling, Cleverley, Anderson, Welbeck, Jones, they’re all mid-table players.

Evra was past his best at that point too.

macheda14 · Sep 25, 2019

OleTheGreat said:
I think he was ousted from the team very early.

Really? I don’t think you remember how terrible he was for us in his last few seasons. Yes he’d have the odd good game and score the odd important goal, but he was so off the pace and his touch failed him consistently.

adexkola · Sep 25, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
No, they underrate him if anything, that wasn’t a very good team by United standards nor do I believe any other manager wins the league with that 10-13 United side.

Young, Evans, Smalling, Cleverley, Anderson, Welbeck, Jones, they’re all mid-table players.

Evra was past his best at that point too.

A team with Rooney, Vidic, Ferdinand, VDS/DDG, Evra, Carrick, Scholes, Nani, Berbatov, and others? Ok.

Denis79 · Sep 25, 2019

Evra, Nani and Rooney were arguably world-class players back then. Also performed like ones. Top of that SAF extracted that little extra from the rest.

Chabon · Sep 25, 2019

adexkola said:
People overrate SAF like he was a magician. I mean, he's still the best manager ever, but that was actually a good team, personnel and tactics wise.

For whatever reason people aren't comfortable admitting that we actually had good players back then, so the myth of Fergie the literal wizard keeps growing. Maybe they're all big Van Gaal stans who can't recognise he destroyed a decent squad in pursuit of some bizarre vision of footballing precision.

norm87cro · Sep 25, 2019

I remember that back in those days we all screamed for a midfielder but SAF insisted that he was happy with his squad and that probably gave the likes of Anderson and Cleverly the extra confidence but to our dismay it did lay some foundations to our troubles from 2013 and 2017. It's going to be 2020 soon so we can't blame SAF for the current squad problems though. And another thing I am personally going to remember Young more for his early days and a contribution in great goals that for the last few years that he was used out of his natural position and being bashed by half of the CAF.

Gentleman Jim · Sep 25, 2019

Remember that day pretty well.
It was a Sunday and first up was City v Spurs @ WHL.
It was obvious that City and United would almost certainly have the PL between them and City put down a marker by hammering Spurs 5-0 with Edin Dzeko bagging 4. Ferguson knew that United had to win big to be top of the table at the end of the day and United tore a young overmatched Arsenal a new one.
That set the tone for a titanic battle that lasted all season.

Sterling Archer · Sep 25, 2019

It also helps that it's a balanced side, even with Smalling at RB

OleTheGreat · Sep 25, 2019

macheda14 said:
Really? I don’t think you remember how terrible he was for us in his last few seasons. Yes he’d have the odd good game and score the odd important goal, but he was so off the pace and his touch failed him consistently.

yes buddy, but i did still think he could've done better and played in the whole alongside Pogba and Herrera for Jose. Not now though. I'm glad he's better for DC United!

Rozay · Sep 25, 2019

The XI Arsenal put out that day was an embarrassment, and half of them were literally shipped out the following day. They were injury ravaged and looked more like the strength of what we will put out against Rochdale tonight.

If anything, the team LVG put out to beat Arsenal at Old Trafford was probably more impressive. It was against Arsenal’s strongest team, and had Rashford making his debut, and TFM and James fecking Weir, who was always destined to be a League One player from the bench.

Xyx · Sep 25, 2019

Maybe I'm biased but I've always seen it as really a freak result in a fairly open match. Both United and Arsenal had about the same number of chances, United were simply very clinical with theirs on that day. If I remember correctly, most of the goals were screamers.

AFC NimbleThumb · Sep 25, 2019

MyOnlySolskjaer said:
I’d kill even to have a declining Rooney at the moment.

Been saying it since I joined the forum & will continue to.

The way people fall over themselves to criticise the guy yet would defend bang average members of the current squad *cough Lindelof* *cough Shaw* will forever baffle me.

The guy wasn’t as good as his peak but he was always one hell of a player.

I’d have him over Mata now, he’d at least try to run.

Gopher Brown · Sep 25, 2019

Forevergiggs1 said:
Play that game 100 times and I'm sure we wouldn't get close to an 8-2 scoreline. Just like City the other day scoring 5 within 20 minutes. Just freakish results that make the game a lot more interesting.

Actually couldn't watch the game. Had a lunch compromise I couldn't get out of. Kept checking the score on my mobile and couldn't believe what I was seeing.

While the scoreline was a rarity, the result was full expected.

They hadn’t invested at all over the summer and they lost 2-0 to Liverpool in the previous game and looked absolutely shocking. I thought we’d win big, obviously not that big though. It was one of those games where everything we hit went in.

They then signed 3-4 players on deadline day in a panic.

SuperiorXI · Sep 25, 2019

MyOnlySolskjaer said:
I’d kill even to have a declining Rooney at the moment.

Towards the end he became a major hindrance. It became the Rooney show when we should have been concentrating on rebuilding the squad.

Sandikan · Sep 25, 2019

Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
de Gea
Smalling Jones Evans Evra
Nani Cleverley Anderson Young
Rooney Welbeck

Mental.

Is that team really any better than our current strongest XI?

I think Fergie was too good. To the extent that it actually hurt us as he papered over the cracks so much our owners didn't feel the need to invest in the squad.

On paper now it looks bang average, but that's applying either how players are now, or how they turned out revisionism.

Anderson - Cleverley were part of their epic 6 game world class run, and back then Rooney and Nani were quality, and Young was good, and still an actual winger!
Welbeck had played his way in with a lot of promise, and the back 5 is still a mix of actual class and great potential.

Also Arsenal had a terrible team out!

Striker10 · Sep 25, 2019

It's not just ability but personality/experience. We lost so much of that at the same time rather then placing one by one by one which would have been more ideal. People underestimate how big the mental side of the game is. Our current group lacks a lot though the same team in 2/3 years could perceive themselves very differently as a group and we may hold them in higher regard.

SadlerMUFC · Sep 25, 2019

romufc said:
I don't think the 4-4-2 works in a pressing environment where you need the midfield to over power teams. We saw SAF in big games play a 4-4-1-1.

We need alot more fluidity in our team, and when we did play 4-4-2 we had wingers who could cross, we can barely hit a straight pass in the final third now.

We had forwards who could head the ball too

I never said I wanted us to press. In this formation it wouldn't be a press. It would be more of counter attacking. I personally think the press is over rated. When you get the ball back they have all their players back. I would rather let a team have a bit of the ball and then press when they are in our half. Then when we win the ball there is space behind the defense to run into on the counter...

Bobski · Sep 25, 2019

Anderson was actually a very good player in those short spells when he was fit-ish and motivated. Always raised the tempo of the game, either through those driving runs or quick, snappy, passing, Also very strong on the ball against a press, always trusted his technique in tight situations. Much more talented than Fred. Terrible waster that he was. Welbeck played well with Rooney as well, worked nicely as a partnership.

Welbeckham · Sep 25, 2019

That defence line was decent back then, you literally can’t say it out loud here, but the weakest link of that defence at the time was actually declining Evra, together with that midfield that wasn’t good enough against strong opponents. He didn’t have a good season, any other opinions are just revisionism.

The way we got battered by City and Benfica and Basel in our UCL group was embarrasing. But Rooney, Welbeck, Valencia, Young, Jones, Smalling and Nani were much better than the post-Fergie versions, so that squad is much better and more balanced than our current one. Even Cleverley and Anderson were much better players than the frauds we have currently. But that was a perfect day to face Arsenal if there ever was one, because they were in a bad state for a while.

Welbeckham · Sep 25, 2019

Bobski said:
Anderson was actually a very good player in those short spells when he was fit-ish and motivated. Always raised the tempo of the game, either through those driving runs or quick, snappy, passing, Also very strong on the ball against a press, always trusted his technique in tight situations. Much more talented than Fred. Terrible waster that he was. Welbeck played well with Rooney as well, worked nicely as a partnership.

I quite liked Anderson, with the right mentality he could’ve been a brilliant CM for a decade. Didn’t quite have the eye for those final balls, but he was brilliant technically and physically at his peak.

Acole9 · Sep 25, 2019

Leftback99 said:
We haven't got a forward anywhere close to what Rooney was or wingers as good as Nani and Young. If Rashford was around back then we'd see him as Welbeck level.

Also the Arsenal team that day was terrible.

Just come to post exactly this. Suggesting their side that day was square pegs in round holes would be a polite way of putting it. SAF started to look a bit embarrassed towards the end, wouldn't be surprised if he told them to ease off a touch.

noodlehair · Sep 25, 2019

Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
de Gea
Smalling Jones Evans Evra
Nani Cleverley Anderson Young
Rooney Welbeck

Mental.

Is that team really any better than our current strongest XI?

I think Fergie was too good. To the extent that it actually hurt us as he papered over the cracks so much our owners didn't feel the need to invest in the squad.

You probably have a point, but that was an energetic, very hard working team and very high on confidence.

Nani and Rooney are probably better than anything we have now...well, they are. Anderson on form was better than anything we have (albeit Anderson on form turned up for 30 minutes a season on average).

I mean Ferguson was a genius, but I think he'd struggle with the current lot. Too many of them are static and too slow abd never seem to get the message. What he probably would do is weed out the ones who weren't up to it pretty quickly and start getting a lot more from the ones who were.

You wouldn't have a fullback taking on 40 yard shots multiple times a half or players just casually passing the ball sideways and backwards over and over after taking 5 touches. Not when we were a 6th place side.

Tapori · Sep 25, 2019

Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
de Gea
Smalling Jones Evans Evra
Nani Cleverley Anderson Young
Rooney Welbeck

Mental.

Is that team really any better than our current strongest XI?

I think Fergie was too good. To the extent that it actually hurt us as he papered over the cracks so much our owners didn't feel the need to invest in the squad.

Nothing anyone can ever say can ever convince me that that midfield 2 of Cleverley and Anderson for 8-10 games that season wasn't one of the most scintillating and glorious spell of football we have witnessed and would have been world-class award winning had it not been for Kevin Davies and Anderson's driving skills and metabolism.
We were robbed; ROBBED

Offside · Sep 25, 2019

Is it mental? Rooney and Nani were class at the time. The others were all very young at the time playing with supreme confidence under SAF. Nobody massively blinked at the result at the time, was absolutely expected that we’d pound them. It’s only in hindsight that a lot of those young players didn’t work out we now make threads like this. Stupid.

freeurmind · Sep 25, 2019

Also there was a defined style of play and identity in the team. Arsenal hadn't beaten us in a while and were in poor form if I remember correctly. Young, Nani and Anderson particulary were at the peak of their powers.

romufc · Sep 26, 2019

SadlerMUFC said:
I never said I wanted us to press. In this formation it wouldn't be a press. It would be more of counter attacking. I personally think the press is over rated. When you get the ball back they have all their players back. I would rather let a team have a bit of the ball and then press when they are in our half. Then when we win the ball there is space behind the defense to run into on the counter...

That is why we struggle to score, teams come to OT but don't want the ball, they sit back because they know we can't break them down and counter us. Teams do exactly what you are telling us to do.

RedDevilRoshi · Sep 26, 2019

Just shows you how much of a genius SAF truly was. How he was able to get the very best out of some proper average players and turn them into PL winners is just insane!

Yagami · Sep 26, 2019

One of Rooney's last great performances!

Crazy to think by next season he'd have lost all that explosiveness.

Imagine if we had got this Rooney with that RvP?

Basso · Sep 26, 2019

Arsenal´s team was much better than I remembered.
They just sold Nasri and Fabregas a few days prior.

Wojciech Szczesny

Carl Jenkinson
Johan Djourou
Laurent Koscielny
Armand Traoré

Aaron Ramsey
Francis Coquelin
Tomas Rosicky
Theo Walcott
Andrey Arshavin

Robin van Persie

SadlerMUFC · Sep 26, 2019

romufc said:
That is why we struggle to score, teams come to OT but don't want the ball, they sit back because they know we can't break them down and counter us. Teams do exactly what you are telling us to do.

And in a 4-4-2 they would have the ball more so we would be able to counter attack more...

Pierluigi Casiraghi · Sep 26, 2019

OleTheGreat said:
Just to be clear, Rooney was out of steam but his qualities never declined. I can see what he's doing with DC United since he's been there and it has been pretty decent. That one retrieval and pass for a goal was sublime and unforgettable for world football. I think he was ousted from the team very early.

Think you might be forgetting how utterly useless he was in his last proper season (that being LvG's 2nd term, Jose didn't use him much). Was consistently our worst player on the pitch.

Igor Drefljak · Sep 26, 2019

Since selling Evans, he'd still have been our best defender up until signing Magurie

The team that beat Arsenal 8-2

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