3-4-3 formation

starman · Oct 21, 2019

MrBrightside1989 said:
I would question Pogba's ability to lead the press high up the pitch, when pereira played yesterday he did that well, Pogba as a 10 would change that dynamic but should obviously give us more quality.

Yes, but we wont be playing or setting up like we did yesterday against every team, instead adapting a more attacking version when we are the dominant team in possession

Cliche Guevara · Oct 21, 2019

How many more people are going to lie and say they’ve been advocating using this non-existent formation (used specifically against one opponent) since the start of the season?

lex talionis · Oct 21, 2019

It really comes to down to who's fit to play and who the opponent is, isn't it?

Against Liverpool a 532 worked to get the draw against the better side but it wasn't exactly as though we dominated the scouse. The point was fair for both sides but if we're going to be honest we were on the ropes for the last 20-25 minutes.

Going forward with this squad, assuming full fitness, I still like 433:

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka Maguire Tuanzebe Shaw
Pereira McTominay Pogba
James Martial Rashford

The main weakness is in midfield but McTominay is growing into a decent midfielder right before our very eyes. The jury is out on Pereira and for some the jury have already rendered its verdict, but it's the best we can do for now. I'd like to see more production out of Shaw when he returns. And clearly more clinical finishing from Rashford and Martial, which I believe they are capable of.

Alemar · Oct 21, 2019

lex talionis said:
Going forward with this squad, assuming full fitness, I still like 433:

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka Maguire Tuanzebe Shaw
Pereira McTominay Pogba
James Martial Rashford

In this setup, better Fred instead of Pereira (and swap positions of CBs). Rather than that, fair enough.

edcunited1878 · Oct 21, 2019

lex talionis said:
It really comes to down to who's fit to play and who the opponent is, isn't it?

Against Liverpool a 532 worked to get the draw against the better side but it wasn't exactly as though we dominated the scouse. The point was fair for both sides but if we're going to be honest we were on the ropes for the last 20-25 minutes.

Going forward with this squad, assuming full fitness, I still like 433:

De Gea
Wan-Bissaka Maguire Tuanzebe Shaw
Pereira McTominay Pogba
James Martial Rashford

The main weakness is in midfield but McTominay is growing into a decent midfielder right before our very eyes. The jury is out on Pereira and for some the jury have already rendered its verdict, but it's the best we can do for now. I'd like to see more production out of Shaw when he returns. And clearly more clinical finishing from Rashford and Martial, which I believe they are capable of.

But it wasn't a 532. It was a 3412 with the wingbacks tucking in defensively when necessary and Pereria coming into central midfield.

United completely fecked with Liverpool for well over the hour mark. Just eventually United ran out of gas and quality and had no like for like subs to impact the match.

Pereira is improving match after match, especially considering Lingard is out of the side due to injury.

The biggest things I saw from yesterday's match, which should have been addressed a few matches earlier is a central midfield partnership that was robust and committed to defending and supporting the attacked together. And there were two center forwards who worked together in tandem. United functioned very well in certain areas (central midfield and central attack), which have been missing for too many matches.

dev1l · Oct 21, 2019

edcunited1878 said:
But it wasn't a 532. It was a 3412 with the wingbacks tucking in defensively when necessary and Pereria coming into central midfield.

United completely fecked with Liverpool for well over the hour mark. Just eventually United ran out of gas and quality and had no like for like subs to impact the match.

Pereira is improving match after match, especially considering Lingard is out of the side due to injury.

The biggest things I saw from yesterday's match, which should have been addressed a few matches earlier is a central midfield partnership that was robust and committed to defending and supporting the attacked together. And there were two center forwards who worked together in tandem. United functioned very well in certain areas (central midfield and central attack), which have been missing for too many matches.

Apparently the plan is to have fitness levels which will allow us to maintain the same tempo for 90 mins. At the moment we re ok for 60-70 mins.
Main issue is muscular injuries until the higher fitness levels are achieved.

Andersons Dietician · Oct 21, 2019

Wouldn’t mind seeing the 352 with Martial and one of the others up top. He is the best of the 3 with his back to goal and ability to link play and pick a pass so it might work better as even yesterday there were times Martial and Rashford were making the wrong decisions or not making the pass when it was there for each other to go through.

Add Pogba and Shaw to Martial and I think we’d be better at breaking teams down as they are probably the best 3 in possesion of the ball in the squad.

DDG
Lindelof Maguire Tuanzebe
Bissaka McT Fred. Shaw
Pogba
Martial. Rashford

Fit James and Greenwood in when we can and as subs.

Adcuth · Oct 21, 2019

MrBrightside1989 said:
I would question Pogba's ability to lead the press high up the pitch, when pereira played yesterday he did that well, Pogba as a 10 would change that dynamic but should obviously give us more quality.

Id prefer Pogba next to Mctominay and Gomez or James played higher up

wolvored · Oct 21, 2019

We played a tactic to get a goal and hang on due to the 2 contrasting halves. Its only when you look at the stats after the game that you realise how poor we are attacking wise. 32% possession and 2 shots on target.

Adcuth · Oct 21, 2019

Cliche Guevara said:
How many more people are going to lie and say they’ve been advocating using this non-existent formation (used specifically against one opponent) since the start of the season?

I suggested a 3 3 3 1 formation for the arsenal game. The premise was based on the back 3 that was set to start but we had more players further forward

edcunited1878 · Oct 21, 2019

dev1l said:
Apparently the plan is to have fitness levels which will allow us to maintain the same tempo for 90 mins. At the moment we re ok for 60-70 mins.
Main issue is muscular injuries until the higher fitness levels are achieved.

It kind of goes back to the old adage of work smarter, not (necessarily) harder.

You need to close down sooner, anticipate better, be a little tighter or know when to back off, etc. throughout a match because keeping your shape allows you to keep your energy.

There are times you need to be able to possess the ball and manufacture goal scoring opportunities based on the quality of the players and tactical onus.

RG 11 · Oct 21, 2019

Don't think this formation will help us break down teams which park the bus considering we lack a striker which can get to the end of crosses from our wingbacks.

edcunited1878 · Oct 21, 2019

wolvored said:
We played a tactic to get a goal and hang on due to the 2 contrasting halves. Its only when you look at the stats after the game that you realise how poor we are attacking wise. 32% possession and 2 shots on target.

Liverpool didn't have many clear chances, maybe 3? I can only think of 2 clear ones - Firmino and Lallana. Everything else was off target, such as AOC's effort. Rashford had a really good opportunity in the second half after James's run cleared a path inside and Rashford didn't test Allison considering he had an angle for the far post but grabbed at it and it went near post.

The first 70 minutes, Liverpool didn't have any answers no matter the possession stats. United were the better team. Only did United start getting tired and didn't have sufficient, like for like cover on the bench did they feel real pressure...even then Rojo has to clear that ball, just terrible defending. He's free to attack the ball coming into space and he didn't own it. Never can that ball go through like that

pocco · Oct 21, 2019

pocco said:
I feel like yesterday might be the start of something, despite the result. I wanted to see us in the 343/523 with wing backs and I felt it worked, and I liked the role Herrera played. As is often the case, you have teething problems and I thought the defenders lost concentration for the second goal. The other two were errors.

But I'd like to see us continue with that system and approach now and I think we'll look good once we get it sussed. Maybe this is the start of something that Jose was hoping to do and something that he, Carrick and McKenna have been working on? At least Jose acknowledged after the game that this was good football, nobody will complain if we play like that regularly. We just need some of our attackers to come to the party. Perhaps Dalot can offer something in that system too.

I said this after a game against Spurs last season under Jose where we used it and brought a very similar performance there too, including the defensive lapse. I like the formation a lot for different reasons and i think it helps us overcome some of our shortcoming. It's a very balanced system and creates overloads in the right areas.

Infra-red · Oct 21, 2019

Works OK in a game where the opposition dominates the ball as Liverpool did - it allowed us to soak up pressure in a back 5 and then break quickly through the wingbacks.

Would be less useful against Norwich/Bournemouth, where instead we'll be the side looking to break down a stubborn defence.

Bebestation · Oct 22, 2019

The 352 in my opinion has been our teams natural formation since LVG season 2.

The problem was that LVG broke Rashford in to the team & then had started to play martial on the left to not break Rashford's breakthrough season.

Considering we had Memphis, Martial, Rashford Lingard & Rooney as our CF's in that 2nd season - I reckon if he had stayed then he would have got us playing in a 352 with strikers in channels + a new left footed forward to play from the right.

Likewise I look at Blind & Smalling - they were good together but maybe not perfect - add a maguire or even a Lindelof to that & that becomes a much more handsome back 3.

The 352 is United's formation & its primarily due to the forwards ability to play as inverted wingers on channels with the defenders playing as ball playing defenders more centrally and attackingly - as shown by Sheffield United.

Bebestation · Oct 22, 2019

De gea

Lindelof - Tuenzebe - Maguire

Wan Bissaka - Mctomminay - Pogba - Shaw

Martial/Gomes

Greenwood(Martial) - Rashford/James

Pogba doesn't need to play CAM because he has 3 CB's behind him and 2 defensive wingbacks. Both Mctomminay & Pogba can play Box to Box & Creative with respective freedom. Martial plays as a false 9, holding up the ball & bringing others in to play. Rashford & Greenwood play down the channels but in partnership trying to get in behind the defence.

In my opinion easy to see that improve & easy to see how to improve the squad to make us grow in to a competitive team.

Web of Bissaka · Oct 22, 2019

Nice option to have in big games and vs tricky attacking teams.

Not a good one if we're aiming to break stubborn defenses.

buckooo1978 · Oct 22, 2019

given our weakness in midfield I think it's probably our best option

-----------------------DDG------------------------
----------Victor----Maguire--Axel--------
AWB-----McT---------Pogba------Shaw
---James------Martial----Rashford---

think this our best team given the options available

1988 · Oct 22, 2019

343 or 3412 seems to work fine when we allow the opposition to have the ball but I don't see it working against midtable teams and relegation fodder. I really want 433 to work. We've got the players for it (although a few upgrades a dire needed). Just need the players to step up.

sherrinford · Oct 22, 2019

buckooo1978 said:
given our weakness in midfield I think it's probably our best option

-----------------------DDG------------------------
----------Victor----Maguire--Axel--------
AWB-----McT---------Pogba------Shaw
---James------Martial----Rashford---

think this our best team given the options available

Are you saying that this setup would strengthen our midfield? Or that because the personnel there are so weak let’s play as few of them as possible?

pocco · Oct 22, 2019

I think a lot of people are making the mistake in thinking this is a defensive formation. It can actually be one very good in attack.

buckooo1978 · Oct 22, 2019

sherrinford said:
Are you saying that this setup would strengthen our midfield? Or that because the personnel there are so weak let’s play as few of them as possible?

because Fred has been really poor and Matic even worse.

Pereira had one of his better games st the weekend but he's still a weak option in an attacking sense

In that formation theres more freedom for Pogba and McTominay to get forward and get involved in attacks

Maguire and Tuanzebe have the ability to press and contribute high up in games we are dominating

if we are to do well it's going to be key to get Pogba involved in attacking play - saw a stat the other day that Pogba had created more chances in something like 400 mins than the rest of our midfielders combined the while season

in sum our options are awful there and I think it would help Pogba attack more

wolvored · Oct 22, 2019

edcunited1878 said:
Liverpool didn't have many clear chances, maybe 3? I can only think of 2 clear ones - Firmino and Lallana. Everything else was off target, such as AOC's effort. Rashford had a really good opportunity in the second half after James's run cleared a path inside and Rashford didn't test Allison considering he had an angle for the far post but grabbed at it and it went near post.

The first 70 minutes, Liverpool didn't have any answers no matter the possession stats. United were the better team. Only did United start getting tired and didn't have sufficient, like for like cover on the bench did they feel real pressure...even then Rojo has to clear that ball, just terrible defending. He's free to attack the ball coming into space and he didn't own it. Never can that ball go through like that

I had the info off BBC sport said they had 10 shots 4 on target. Im talking about how poor our attack was and has been for 6 years now under different managers. Cant see where its all gone wrong if 4 different managers cant get us to attack with any fluency.

dev1l · Oct 22, 2019

pocco said:
I think a lot of people are making the mistake in thinking this is a defensive formation. It can actually be one very good in attack.

The formation alone does not dictate whether the team is "defensive" or not. Much depends on the type of players used and the plan. Eg you can have a wing back spending most of the time as a right back or as a right winger. Just to give one example.

Cassidy · Oct 22, 2019

1988 said:
343 or 3412 seems to work fine when we allow the opposition to have the ball but I don't see it working against midtable teams and relegation fodder. I really want 433 to work. We've got the players for it (although a few upgrades a dire needed). Just need the players to step up.

We don’t have the players for 433 as we have no RW/RF

edcunited1878 · Oct 22, 2019

wolvored said:
I had the info off BBC sport said they had 10 shots 4 on target. Im talking about how poor our attack was and has been for 6 years now under different managers. Cant see where its all gone wrong if 4 different managers cant get us to attack with any fluency.

United haven't had the pure quality in terms of forward players either. I think that's been a clear issue and LVG and Mourinho had to manufacture results rather than goals if that makes sense.

Pep and Klopp have good ideologies, no doubt, but so do other managers. I think that they have benefited from having quality forward players + total buy in on how to attack or just execution.

wolvored · Oct 22, 2019

edcunited1878 said:
United haven't had the pure quality in terms of forward players either. I think that's been a clear issue and LVG and Mourinho had to manufacture results rather than goals if that makes sense.

Pep and Klopp have good ideologies, no doubt, but so do other managers. I think that they have benefited from having quality forward players + total buy in on how to attack or just execution.

Hypothetically If fergie had have taken us over in the last 6 years, the first thing he would have done was got in at least 2 maybe 3 very good 20 something experienced strikers, yet apart from Ibra who was at the very end of his peak and 35 and Lukaku who had some premiership experience, it was never addressed. Martial was virtually unknown kid. If we had signed Aubameyang and Lacazette for example we would probably have been in the champions league this season and top 3 now.

edcunited1878 · Oct 22, 2019

wolvored said:
Hypothetically If fergie had have taken us over in the last 6 years, the first thing he would have done was got in at least 2 maybe 3 very good 20 something experienced strikers, yet apart from Ibra who was at the very end of his peak and 35 and Lukaku who had some premiership experience, it was never addressed. Martial was virtually unknown kid. If we had signed Aubameyang and Lacazette for example we would probably have been in the champions league this season and top 3 now.

I still reckon Fergie would have paid or done anything in his power to sign Harry Kane. He always made it a point to sign the best and brightest British players. And I think it's only fair to question Kane's mentality and ruthlessness to win at all costs and truly be in the spotlight.

DLE · Oct 22, 2019

settembrini said:
What did people think of our formation and tactics against Liverpool?

Given we have been using 4-2-3-1 every game this season I was very surprised to see the change today, especially as we went to quite an esoteric formation and not a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2.

The average position of our starting XI was something like this:

Rashford Pereira James
Young Fred McTominay Wan-Bissaka
Rojo Maguire Lindelof
De Gea

Pereira seems to be becoming a favourite of Solskjaer and he was given a key role today. When Liverpool had the ball he was leading our press and when we had it he was the link man in attack with Rashford and James trying to exploit space between Liverpool's attacking full backs and their CBs. I don't think he is good enough to play this role long term but it certainly suits him a lot more than right wing.

It will be interesting to see if we persist with it going forwards or if it was a one off that they had planned to surprise Liverpool with.

Here’s your answer, brilliant analysis:

wolvored · Oct 22, 2019

edcunited1878 said:
I still reckon Fergie would have paid or done anything in his power to sign Harry Kane. He always made it a point to sign the best and brightest British players. And I think it's only fair to question Kane's mentality and ruthlessness to win at all costs and truly be in the spotlight.

I agree. the point im making he would have bought in brilliant experienced strikers with at least 3-4 years play in them.

Inigo Montoya · Oct 22, 2019

DLE said:
Here’s your answer, brilliant analysis:

If only we Had better personnel to exploit it to the full

edcunited1878 · Oct 22, 2019

wolvored said:
I agree. the point im making he would have bought in brilliant experienced strikers with at least 3-4 years play in them.

100%. They wouldn't fold under pressure and they would lift the players around them, get them out of holes, etc.

Fergie always went into seasons knowing where his goals will come from and then build from there. If he's bang on and has 60 goals from players, he'll get 15 to 20 from the other players. That's about two goals per game across 38 games. Same when he signed RVP. They didn't have enough goals or a lift of class...got out a signed RVP once he knew he was even thinking of leaving Arsenal.

pocco · Oct 22, 2019

dev1l said:
The formation alone does not dictate whether the team is "defensive" or not. Much depends on the type of players used and the plan. Eg you can have a wing back spending most of the time as a right back or as a right winger. Just to give one example.

Yeah exactly. I hear people saying "3 at the back, that's very negative", but that's not necessarily true.

Fosu-Mens · Oct 22, 2019

pocco said:
Yeah exactly. I hear people saying "3 at the back, that's very negative", but that's not necessarily true.

If you play with Shaw and AWB as wingbacks, then it becomes defensive. But, in theory, i agree with the point made.

Carl · Oct 22, 2019

More often than not our problem is when we come up against teams that sit deep and just let us have the ball. We have no idea how to break them down and im not sure how swapping an attacker for a defender helps that.

Coaching is the issue. Not formations.

ManchesterYoda · Oct 22, 2019

For us 3-5-2 is better, NOT 3-4-3. Our squad of players is better suited to playing 3-5-2.

a) We don't have anyone in our squad that is capable of playing on the right of a front 3. We shouldn't play 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3.
b) Pogba is best suited to playing in a 3 man midfield in a 3-5-2 system. Pogba is our best player.
c) Our defensive players are better than our forward players.
d) Solskjaer is a defend and counter type of manager. 3-5-2 is perfect for this style of football.

a) is the most important reason. We have a much better balance to our team when we play 3-5-2. In the first half against Liverpool we were very nicely balanced and our performance was much improved because of this. It would be very foolish to revert back to an unbalanced 4-2-3-1. I don't have much faith in Solskjaer keeping the same balanced formation for the rest of the season though because I think his reasons for playing 3-5-2 were defensive rather than to make the team more balanced.

dev1l · Oct 22, 2019

Tbf on Sunday our formation was 3-4-1-2 not 3-4-3 as Perriera was operating behind James and Rashford. The latter 2 were wide in order to expose the space behind Liverpool two overlapping full backs.

sherrinford · Oct 23, 2019

buckooo1978 said:
because Fred has been really poor and Matic even worse.

Pereira had one of his better games st the weekend but he's still a weak option in an attacking sense

In that formation theres more freedom for Pogba and McTominay to get forward and get involved in attacks

Maguire and Tuanzebe have the ability to press and contribute high up in games we are dominating

if we are to do well it's going to be key to get Pogba involved in attacking play - saw a stat the other day that Pogba had created more chances in something like 400 mins than the rest of our midfielders combined the while season

in sum our options are awful there and I think it would help Pogba attack more

Sure, it would mean no Fred or Matic deeper in midfield and no Pereira (or Mata or Lingard) at no.10. And it absolutely can be argued that having Tuanzebe and that front three on the pitch is a stronger lineup than one involving any of those five.

In no way does it allow Pogba (and/or McTominay) to attack more though - the shape doesn’t naturally grant the central midfielders more freedom at all. To get Pogba forward more often would require another central midfield player.

buckooo1978 · Oct 23, 2019

sherrinford said:
Sure, it would mean no Fred or Matic deeper in midfield and no Pereira (or Mata or Lingard) at no.10. And it absolutely can be argued that having Tuanzebe and that front three on the pitch is a stronger lineup than one involving any of those five.

In no way does it allow Pogba (and/or McTominay) to attack more though - the shape doesn’t naturally grant the central midfielders more freedom at all. To get Pogba forward more often would require another central midfield player.

I thought McTominay had a couple of box to box bursts against Liverpool at the weekend - I'd have thought with 3 CBs behind and if one sat you might have a bit more license to attack

3-4-3 formation

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