Romelu Lukaku | Mourinho Part III | Roma watch

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
Your logic is based on me thinking Vardy and Danny Ings are shit which I don't, at least not as shit as Lukaku anyway

And all of this is us just using a metric which is Lukaku's strong point. Lukaku is a decent goalscorer (at least against weaker opposition), but is average to woeful in regards to any other area. I'm willing to be corrected on this, but I don't remember him ever scoring a goal for us that he wasn't expected to score. He never created a goal from nothing like Rashford did vs. Brighton or what Martial did vs. Watford or Greenwood did against Bournemouth. He isn't a well rounded player, so the fact that his goalscoring isn't better than Vardy or Ings (or even our more rounded forwards) in the PL or Immobile, Zapata or Muriel in Serie A highlights how overrated he is.

No...

It's only based on you thinking Vardy and Ings are shit if you think Zlatan is shit. Do you?

Flexdegea · Oct 20, 2020

Stacks said:
Every player who leaves, our fans itch to lament and show us what we are missing, irrespective as to how poor they was to us. The ideal CAF team would have Depay playing SS behind Lukaku, with Di Maria LW, Smalling CB, Young RB

I shiver at that team :lol:

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
No...

It's only based on you thinking Vardy and Ings are shit if you think Zlatan is shit. Do you?

I've only watched Zlatan play once in 4 years and that was in the game against Inter where he played better than Lukaku, a £75m striker who should be in his prime. Of course, this is too small a sample size to really draw anything serious from so we'll see how the season progresses. I do think Immobile is very average and Muriel and Zapata are shit and they scored at a better goal to minute ratio than Lukaku in Serie A last season.

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
I've only watched Zlatan play once in 4 years and that was in the game against Inter where he played better than Lukaku, a £75m striker who should be in his prime. Of course, this is too small a sample size to really draw anything serious from so we'll see how the season progresses. I do think Immobile is very average and Muriel and Zapata are shit and they scored at a better goal to minute ratio than Lukaku in Serie A last season.

If you don't know how good you think Zlatan is, why on earth are you inserting yourself into a conversation where someone compares Zlatan, Vardy and Ings?

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
If you don't know how good you think Zlatan is, why on earth are you inserting yourself into a conversation where someone compares Zlatan, Vardy and Ings?

I'm saying Lukaku should be better than a 39 year old Zlatan who had a career threatening injury and who has been playing in the MLS, on the evidence so far, he's not.

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
I'm saying Lukaku should be better than a 39 year old Zlatan who had a career threatening injury and who has been playing in the MLS, on the evidence so far, he's not.

And why are you doing that in a conversation about Zlatan, Vardy and Ings, and what their respective qualities say about the strength of Serie A vs Premier League? None of these people are Lukaku, if you didn't know.

clarkydaz · Oct 20, 2020

FrankDrebin said:
Did you know, Jamie Vardy was a former alcoholic ?

is this the same alcoholic who scores hat tricks against Pep Guardiola sides? You know who isnt an alcoholic and doesnt score hat tricks aganst good sides? Lukaku. Dry as a bone though

Posh Red · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
I do!

Do you mean recovering alcoholic?

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
And why are you doing that in a conversation about Zlatan, Vardy and Ings, and what their respective qualities say about the strength of Serie A vs Premier League? None of these people are Lukaku, if you didn't know.

I'm sorry if the concept of comparing players and leagues is novel to you but I think you'll find it quite common among football forums. Perhaps there's a Lukaku newsletter you can subscribe to so you can avoid such occurrences going forward.

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

Posh Red said:
Do you mean recovering alcoholic?

I don't know enough about alcoholism generally or Vardy specifically to answer that. I know "once an addict, always an addict" is a saying among a lot of addicts, so in that sense all former alcoholics are recovering alcoholics, but if there is a difference between a recovering and former alcoholics I don't know where Vardy places.

El-Manos · Oct 20, 2020

He is a very good goal scorer, there is no denying that. He just wasn’t suited to our play. Doesn’t make him a bad striker though.

ghagua · Oct 20, 2020

GifLord said:
He's playing in an inferior league ffs.

What about all the goals he scored in England apart from a sub-par season, the Premier league is sub-par as well?

ghagua · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
I dislike Mourinho as much as the next guy, but we had the exact same points tally over the last two seasons, and in Lukaku's first season we had 81 points and were 2nd so you're making absolutely no sense. You have to remember that for the first part of last season Rashford and Martial were playing ahead of a midfield of McTominay, Fred, Lingard/Pereira and James. Without Pogba and Bruno for half of the season, it's even more impressive that they managed to outscore a £75 million 'proven goalscorer' while also being able to contribute to the team creatively and being able to score more than 1 goal in 23 games against the top 6 (which is Lukaku's embarrassing record for us).

Lukaku was the third top scorer last season in a league where Immobile had a goal every 88 minutes. In a league where a 36 year old Quagliarela scored just as many for midtable Sampdoria the season prior and this season, a 39 year old Zlatan has a goal every 45 minutes so far. Serie A is a weaker league and average players like Muriel, Immobile and Zapata scored at a better minute to goal ratio than Lukaku last season. Comparing his goal tally in Serie A to our players' goal tally in the PL is utterly cretinous to begin with, especially when he already played for us for 2 years and has proven that he was no where near good enough. Immobile broke records last season and scored at a much higher rate than Lukaku yet he got no great fanfare and no big clubs were in for him - what does that tell you?

I will point out to your reasoning, how many goals did Lukaku score in his first season at United when Maureen was playing something decent? Forget the Italian league for a moment, how many goals has Lukaku scored in England, including all the goals for a poor Everton side?

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

ghagua said:
What about all the goals he scored in England apart from a sub-par season, the Premier league is sub-par as well?

Go a few pages back and GifLord mocked Lukaku for scoring 70 % of his goals against bottom half teams last season (real number was 65 %). I showed him that several world class attackers had similar or "worse" percentages (including Messi), and surprise surprise, suddenly that stat didn't matter after all.

For some people it's pathological.

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg · Oct 20, 2020

16 league goals in first season as our only striker, and as a guaranteed starter.

12 league goals in his second season, only later on did OGS drop him.

that’s not a good return.

1 goal in 23 appearances against the top 6 in 2 years.

great striker.

ghagua · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
Go a few pages back and GifLord mocked Lukaku for scoring 70 % of his goals against bottom half teams last season (real number was 65 %). I showed him that several world class attackers had similar or "worse" percentages (including Messi), and surprise surprise, suddenly that stat didn't matter after all.

For some people it's pathological.

I know what you mean. It seems as if goals-against bottom-half teams don't count....like when we were getting beaten or drawing often last year against the bottom of the league teams. If for example, Lukaku was scoring a hattrick against those teams, imagine how much closer we would have ended to Liverpool.

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

ghagua said:
I know what you mean. It seems as if goals-against bottom-half teams don't count....like when we were getting beaten or drawing often last year against the bottom of the league teams. If for example, Lukaku was scoring a hattrick against those teams, imagine how much closer we would have ended to Liverpool.

Yeah, but it's even worse than that. If Lukaku scores goals against bottom-half teams then it doesn't count, but if Vardy or Messi score against bottom-half teams then it does count. Vardy got top scorer last season by basically only scoring against the bottom teams, but that suddenly didn't matter.

It's one thing to consistently undervalue the things players like Lukaku actually bring to the table, but when you do value it except when specifically Lukaku do them then we're entering bizarro world.

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
Yeah, but it's even worse than that. If Lukaku scores goals against bottom-half teams then it doesn't count, but if Vardy or Messi score against bottom-half teams then it does count. Vardy got top scorer last season by basically only scoring against the bottom teams, but that suddenly didn't matter.

It's one thing to consistently undervalue the things players like Lukaku actually bring to the table, but when you do value it except when specifically Lukaku do them then we're entering bizarro world.

Vardy has the second highest goalscoring record against the top 6 in modern PL history - he didn't score many against the top 6 last season but that was an outlier - with Lukaku, it's a trend. Messi has scored more goals against the top 6 than Lukaku and he's never even played in the premier league - let that sink in :lol:

GifLord · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
Go a few pages back and GifLord mocked Lukaku for scoring 70 % of his goals against bottom half teams last season (real number was 65 %). I showed him that several world class attackers had similar or "worse" percentages (including Messi), and surprise surprise, suddenly that stat didn't matter after all.

For some people it's pathological.

Yes it's pathological if we don't rate a player who's time and time again shown he can't handle the pressure?
Why dont you show them his amazing stat against top 6 teams ? Whats it like now if you include his time at inter?? 30+ games and less than 10 goals? Amazing just amazing.
If you want to win things Lukaku is not the player you want to lead the frontline of your attack. Just watch inter's last 2 games.
vs Napoli - Inter were leading 1:0, Lukaku had a chance to make it 2 he missed a decent chance for a player of his calibre. 5 minutes later Napoli equalized game ended as a draw
vs Milan - Had numerous chances and fluffed and puffed, complained to his team mates every time he didn't get the pass but when he did the same thing nobody bat an eye.

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg · Oct 20, 2020

ghagua said:
I know what you mean. It seems as if goals-against bottom-half teams don't count....like when we were getting beaten or drawing often last year against the bottom of the league teams. If for example, Lukaku was scoring a hattrick against those teams, imagine how much closer we would have ended to Liverpool.

In two years how many hat tricks did he get against any team? I forget.

are you advocating spending up to £90m for a striker who we can only play against bottom half PL teams?

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

GifLord said:
Yes it's pathological if we don't rate a player who's time and time again shown he can't handle the pressure?
Why dont you show them his amazing stat against top 6 teams ? Whats it like now if you include his time at inter?? 30+ games and less than 10 goals? Amazing just amazing.
If you want to win things Lukaku is not the player you want to lead the frontline of your attack. Just watch inter's last 2 games.
vs Napoli - Inter were leading 1:0, Lukaku had a chance to make it 2 he missed a decent chance for a player of his calibre. 5 minutes later Napoli equalized game ended as a draw
vs Milan - Had numerous chances and fluffed and puffed, complained to his team mates every time he didn't get the pass but when he did the same thing nobody bat an eye.

Here we go again. I've never said anything about rating him or not rating him. Never said he has amazing stats against top 6 teams. Never said he's what you need to win titles.

What I'm saying is that you'll find stats to mock Lukaku for, but when it turns out that players you like have worse stats you suddenly drop the argument. I'm talking about you, not Lukaku. You're peak dishonesty, it's downright sad.

MalcolmTucker said:
Vardy has the second highest goalscoring record against the top 6 in modern PL history - he didn't score many against the top 6 last season but that was an outlier - with Lukaku, it's a trend. Messi has scored more goals against the top 6 than Lukaku and he's never even played in the premier league - let that sink in

Yes, Vardy normally has excellent stats against top teams. Last year they were shit, really shit. Way worse than Lukaku. Messi also did worse than Lukaku, again specifically talking about last season (Messi and Vardy had good seasons, I'm not the one saying it's bad to score a lot against the bottom half). Why am I talking about last season and not overall? Because GifLord talked about last season specifically, then abandoned that argument when it didn't suit his agenda.

I really don't get why you keep sticking your nose in when you're consistently contributing with irrelevant things. I'm not saying that Lukaku has a good record against top teams or that Messi or Vardy have bad records. If you want to shit on Lukaku for not performing against good teams, and praise Messi or Vardy for performing, then talk about their careers overall. If you talk about last season specifically you'll look like an idiot, and doubly so if you praise Messi and Vardy for the very thing you're shitting on Lukaku for. So, you know, don't. Just like you didn't, but GifLord did.

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

ghagua said:
I will point out to your reasoning, how many goals did Lukaku score in his first season at United when Maureen was playing something decent? Forget the Italian league for a moment, how many goals has Lukaku scored in England, including all the goals for a poor Everton side?

OK let's forget about Serie A and we can focus on his PL record for us and Everton.

18/19 - Man Utd - 32 games - 12 goals - 178 minutes per goal
17/18 - Man Utd - 34 games - 16 goals - 179 minutes
16/17 - Everton - 37 games - 25 goals - 131 minutes
15/16 - Everton - 37 games - 18 goals - 175 minutes
14/15 - Everton - 36 games - 10 goals - 228 minutes
13/14 - Everton - 31 games - 15 goals - 171 minutes

In that time he scored 11 goals in 66 games against the top 6.

As you can see, his goalscoring form in his last season for us was actually on par with the majority of his seasons and falls at 177 minutes per goal on average.

For reference, last season in the PL, Ings was 128 minutes per goal and Chris Wood's was 175 minutes per goal and they played for weaker sides than Martinez's 'poor' Everton side.

charlenefan · Oct 20, 2020

rotherham_red said:
Tbf, he was only ever here on a short-term deal and had an injury which would have run the risk of ending the career of someone ten years younger. We re-signed him but it was apparent that he needed a lot more time to get back his sharpness which he was never going to get in Europe.

He played a blinder by going to MLS and bringing up his fitness by playing regularly and feasting on the shit over there, and then proceeding to move to the serene pace of Serie A afterwards.

At the time it was the right call, IMO

I also have always found it hard to believe Mourinho would have lost the dressing room like he did if Zlatan had stayed on

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
Yes, Vardy normally has excellent stats against top teams. Last year they were shit, really shit. Way worse than Lukaku. Messi also did worse than Lukaku, again specifically talking about last season (Messi and Vardy had good seasons, I'm not the one saying it's bad to score a lot against the bottom half). Why am I talking about last season and not overall? Because GifLord talked about last season specifically, then abandoned that argument when it didn't suit his agenda.

I really don't get why you keep sticking your nose in when you're consistently contributing with irrelevant things. I'm not saying that Lukaku has a good record against top teams or that Messi or Vardy have bad records. If you want to shit on Lukaku for not performing against good teams, and praise Messi or Vardy for performing, then talk about their careers overall. If you talk about last season specifically you'll look like an idiot, and doubly so if you praise Messi and Vardy for the very thing you're shitting on Lukaku for. So, you know, don't. Just like you didn't, but GifLord did.

Vardy scored 3 goals against the top 6 in the PL last season, which is still 3x more than Lukaku did for us in 2 seasons.

The rest of your post is just confusing tbh

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
Vardy scored 3 goals against the top 6 in the PL last season, which is still 3x more than Lukaku did for us in 2 seasons.

The rest of your post is just confusing tbh

In the league Vardy scored 1 goal in 10 games against top 6. Lukaku scored 3 in 10. Sancho 1 in 9. Messi 3 in 8. Mane 2 in 10. Sterling 2 in 9. Suarez 2 in 7. Salah 3 in 9. Rashford 7 in 7, so that's nice.

I used pretty simple words, so unless you specify what you're struggling with I can't help you.

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
In the league Vardy scored 1 goal in 10 games against top 6. Lukaku scored 3 in 10. Sancho 1 in 9. Messi 3 in 8. Mane 2 in 10. Sterling 2 in 9. Suarez 2 in 7. Salah 3 in 9. Rashford 7 in 7, so that's nice.

I used pretty simple words, so unless you specify what you're struggling with I can't help you.

I'm talking about the traditional top 6 in the PL.

If you're really comparing the top 6 Serie A vs. top 6 of the PL then you're clutching at straws :lol:

DJ Jeff · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
In the league Vardy scored 1 goal in 10 games against top 6. Lukaku scored 3 in 10. Sancho 1 in 9. Messi 3 in 8. Mane 2 in 10. Sterling 2 in 9. Suarez 2 in 7. Salah 3 in 9. Rashford 7 in 7, so that's nice.

I used pretty simple words, so unless you specify what you're struggling with I can't help you.

So basically he scored 3 against a terrible Milan team? Not really something to lord over the others on that list

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
Vardy scored 3 goals against the top 6 in the PL last season, which is still 3x more than Lukaku did for us in 2 seasons.

The rest of your post is just confusing tbh

It was rubbish the first time he posted it.

NotThatSoph · Oct 20, 2020

DJ Jeff said:
So basically he scored 3 against a terrible Milan team? Not really something to lord over the others on that list

I'm not lording anything. Why is it so difficult for people here to read simple words? It was two goals against Milan, by the way, not three.

MalcolmTucker said:
I'm talking about the traditional top 6 in the PL.

If you're really comparing the top 6 Serie A vs. top 6 of the PL then you're clutching at straws

Clutching at straws, like scoring against Arsenal in 19/20. That's funny. Of course someone consistent would count Napoli if they counted Arsenal, seeing as Napoli were better, but no. Not you.

giorno · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
I'm saying Lukaku should be better than a 39 year old Zlatan who had a career threatening injury and who has been playing in the MLS, on the evidence so far, he's not.

Yeah but you could make an argument Zlatan has been better than Cristiano, too, since he came back...

Zlatan is the most dominant player serie A has ever seen. He could dominate the league in his 50s :lol:

Lukaku is great for serie A. That type of striker always does well in Italy. Even his much-maligned overall game is actually a massive plus for Inter in the league

InterFan1998 · Oct 20, 2020

MalcolmTucker said:
I've only watched Zlatan play once in 4 years and that was in the game against Inter where he played better than Lukaku, a £75m striker who should be in his prime. Of course, this is too small a sample size to really draw anything serious from so we'll see how the season progresses. I do think Immobile is very average and Muriel and Zapata are shit and they scored at a better goal to minute ratio than Lukaku in Serie A last season.

Zapata and Muriel are light years ahead of the likes of Jamie Vardy, Danny Ings, or that Everton due that is scoring goals now.

It's not as simple as who scores how many goals in each league. Otherwise it's easy to twist things.
Example:
Salah is scoring lots of goals because EPL defences are weak. In Serie A, defences found it fairly simple to keep him quiet as he could never score more than 16 goals during a season, while he scored 32 goals in his first season in EPL, while only managing 15 in Serie A the season before.

MalcolmTucker · Oct 20, 2020

NotThatSoph said:
Clutching at straws, like scoring against Arsenal in 19/20. That's funny. Of course someone consistent would count Napoli if they counted Arsenal, seeing as Napoli were better, but no. Not you.

What are you blathering on about? I've never mentioned Napoli :houllier:

InterFan1998 said:
Zapata and Muriel are light years ahead of the likes of Jamie Vardy, Danny Ings, or that Everton due that is scoring goals now.

It's not as simple as who scores how many goals in each league. Otherwise it's easy to twist things.
Example:
Salah is scoring lots of goals because EPL defences are weak. In Serie A, defences found it fairly simple to keep him quiet as he could never score more than 16 goals during a season, while he scored 32 goals in his first season in EPL, while only managing 15 in Serie A the season before.

At no point did I compare players across leagues. I compared Lukaku to his peers in Serie A; Immobile, Zapata and Muriel (who all scored at a better minute per goal ratio) and his record for when he was in the PL to players who play in that league. I agree it's pointless to compare stats across different leagues, in fact it was someone using his scoring record in Serie A last season as a way to belittle our forwards which dragged me back into this thread.

ryan_forlan · Oct 21, 2020

Scored a brace today.
Customary bump :-p

Sylar · Oct 21, 2020

As far as scoring vs non elite / big teams in club football, he really is deadly

roonster09 · Oct 22, 2020

Started the season brilliantly.

Chief123 · Oct 22, 2020

Some fans say we should have kept Lukaku every time he scores for Inter now. He seems to be rated higher now than when he was at Utd.

But nothings changed really. He was scoring on a regular basis for us as well. He just wasn’t suited to how we want to play and we were correct to get rid of him.

Why is anyone even surprised that he is scoring for Inter regularly. It was to be expected. He’s a striker and will get goals wherever he goes. Not every team wants a striker who scores 25+ goals a season when it doesn’t fit the philosophy of the team. Look at the other extreme of Firmino. He scores once every 20 games. But you would never see Liverpool wanting to swap him for Lukaku.

Paul_Scholes18 · Oct 22, 2020

Chief123 said:
Some fans say we should have kept Lukaku every time he scores for Inter now. He seems to be rated higher now than when he was at Utd.

But nothings changed really. He was scoring on a regular basis for us as well. He just wasn’t suited to how we want to play and we were correct to get rid of him.

Why is anyone even surprised that he is scoring for Inter regularly. It was to be expected. He’s a striker and will get goals wherever he goes. Not every team wants a striker who scores 25+ goals a season when it doesn’t fit the philosophy of the team. Look at the other extreme of Firmino. He scores once every 20 games. But you would never see Liverpool wanting to swap him for Lukaku.

We have missed goals and having a proper striker would have helped. Martial is very much up and down and so is Rashford.
I would take keeping Lukaku and have a potent attack over getting Maguire and getting a slightly better defense.
Cavani might find his old form so we don't miss him though. Not sure at his age though.

Chief123 · Oct 22, 2020

Paul_Scholes18 said:
We have missed goals and having a proper striker would have helped. Martial is very much up and down and so is Rashford.
I would take keeping Lukaku and have a potent attack over getting Maguire and getting a slightly better defense.
Cavani might find his old form so we don't miss him though. Not sure at his age though.

The whole reason we sold lukaku was not because a lack of goals. He scored plenty. But to accommodate him in the team we had to play a certain style of football. Most notably the same mundane channels of working it down the left hand side for Ashley Young to cut back in with his right foot and cross it in.

Lukaka’s goal scoring is never in doubt. If you want to play with wingers and full backs who will supply crosses all day, then he works. If you want to play fluid interchanging football with your forwards and use your forwards to bring the midfielders into play, then Lukaku is not your man.

If you watch Inter’s game last night, you’ll see some of the reasons why we got rid of him. Midfielders played it into his feet a few times and his misplaced passes took everyone out of the game.

Paul_Scholes18 · Oct 22, 2020

Chief123 said:
The whole reason we sold lukaku was not because a lack of goals. He scored plenty. But to accommodate him in the team we had to play a certain style of football. Most notably the same mundane channels of working it down the left hand side for Ashley Young to cut back in with his right foot and cross it in.

Lukaka’s goal scoring is never in doubt. If you want to play with wingers and full backs who will supply crosses all day, then he works. If you want to play fluid interchanging football with your forwards and use your forwards to bring the midfielders into play, then Lukaku is not your man.

If you watch Inter’s game last night, you’ll see some of the reasons why we got rid of him. Midfielders played it into his feet a few times and his misplaced passes took everyone out of the game.

I thought we played some good football with Lukaku though doing just what you said. It didn't last all season, but we had periods playing really well with him.
It is not like our football now is that brilliant. Think Bruno and Pogba would just improve Lukaku as well. If he is not performing we could bench him and get a response.

I didn't watch most of the game yesterday though so can't tell about that one. Anyway we got Cavani now so let's hope he can do that job.

AFC NimbleThumb · Oct 25, 2020

Prolific.

Romelu Lukaku | Mourinho Part III | Roma watch

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Better at GIFs than posts

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Far less insightful than the other Charley

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Not so Jazzy

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boob novice

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Gullible

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Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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