R'hllor
Full Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2013
- Messages
- 15,414
Never claimed there is no difference and still get bombarded about it.
I hate posts like yours, because it down plays Sir Alex's brilliance and equals all our success to the money we spent. But as numerous posters already pointed out, we've never been top spenders during the 90's overall. And ironically we were still dominating the league when we had our "no value in the market" policy and our CM's were consisting of Ando, Cleverly, Scholes on his last league and an ancient Giggs.Ummm didn’t Man Utd own the league for quite a while because they were a wealthier team than the rest of the league and bought top talent?
Absolute trainwreck of a post and the fact that you got a like for it makes it even funnier.You sound like these silly journalists who just tweet stuff like this for clicks and attention. So going off your theory, does it mean that having American owners that us and Liverpool are to blame for bombing middle East countries or are Chelsea responsible for war crimes in Russia and other Eastern European Countries or should we point the finger at West Brom and Southampton for having a hand in the covid breakout as they have Chinese owners?
It's ridiculous that we stoop so low just to have a pop at Man City because of their owners, in fact it is borderline racism. We just have to accept they are better than us at this moment in time on and off the pitch and acting like spoilt brats throwing our toys out of the pram makes us look really bitter. We just need to suck it up and keep trying to get near them.
that’s very surprising.Quoting myself from the last time a City fan talked shite about how much we spent in the 90s:
In the ten years between the appointment of Sir Alex Ferguson and the end of the 95/96 season, City spent more on transfers than United did. That season, of course, ended with United's third league title (and second double) in four years, and City getting relegated.
They should be celebrating that gobshite Barton more than agueroooo.How do you know that no one cares or watches their celebrations? The only one that should care are their fans anyway.
And i'm pretty sure everyone remembers the "Agueroooo..." moment.
Chelsea? Chelsea have 3 titles in the past 10 years just like us. We have spent more than Chelsea since Fergie retired.Football comes in cycles. Some teams dominate and then fade away. Others come back from the ashes. Right now it should have been the golden age of the PL if it weren't for Chelsea and City. Thanks to the TV sponsorship and Sir Alex's retirement the PL is a more even ground than it has ever been.
Teams like Leicester, Tottenham and Everton have pulled up to the top. While teams like us and Arsenal have faded. It should have been a free for all and the emergence of the new footballing elite, but instead we have a sidebob circus of City and Chelsea winning it non stop and we all know why it is.
It's a shame since if these 2 weren't around, our league would have reverted to how it was back in the 60's. I mean Leicester won it just a few years ago for God's sake. And since
I hate posts like yours, because it down plays Sir Alex's brilliance and equals all our success to the money we spent. But as numerous posters already pointed out, we've never been top spenders during the 90's overall. And ironically we were still dominating the league when we had our "no value in the market" policy and our CM's were consisting of Ando, Cleverly, Scholes on his last league and an ancient Giggs.
Your club on the other hand...
Absolute trainwreck of a post and the fact that you got a like for it makes it even funnier.
Last time I checked the Glazers didn't have to torture, maim or blow up anyone to get and maintain their wealth. And while they did rub shoulder with the American politics, they only got political scraps. They're not a monopoly. It's not like the Glazers can pick up a phone and bomb a country in the middle east. The only way this would be comparable is if Donald Trump or the Clinton Foundation would've been our owners.
Don't get me started on the Mansour family, but since you've absolved him of any blame let's talk about Abramovich.
As someone who grew up in eastern Europe and fluent in russian I've kept up with the news religiously. Abramovich is part of the russian oligarchs who built their wealth in the 90's. Now the thing that nobody talks about in the west is how these oligarchs where "privatizing" the state owned property back then. Except there was no privatizing, it was an economic war.
You'd blow up your competitors or shoot them on the streets in broad daylight. You'd break unwilling sellers by having your muscle pay them a visit while paying off the cops. It was literally the complete wild east. People who had a stake in the gas or oil companies were left to fend for themselves. There were no sherifs or Clint Eastwood to uphold the law. There was even a court battle in the UK between Abramovich and Berezovskii(another russian oligarch) where they had to explain to the court what a "krysha"(organized racket group) is and how it worked.
And no, we're not even remotely close to any of these guys, and that's not even the problem. This isn't an ethics debate, it's a footballing one.
The problem is that these guys use the funds that they've collected though ill gotten means to gain an advantage over the rest of the league. Their "advantage" is literally funded by human suffering and death while other "historic elite" clubs such as us, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle are saddled with the owners debts.
There is no sucking up to be done to clubs that literally can print money out of thin air if they needed to. These guys are playing using cheat codes, and for any non gamers on here, cheat codes are bannable offense in any gaming server. Not in football apparently.
I don't think that's true. Liverpool, Blackburn, Newcastle, Everton and Spurs all spent more than us during that period, but I'm pretty sure City spent around £10m less.Quoting myself from the last time a City fan talked shite about how much we spent in the 90s:
In the ten years between the appointment of Sir Alex Ferguson and the end of the 95/96 season, City spent more on transfers than United did. That season, of course, ended with United's third league title (and second double) in four years, and City getting relegated.
I don't think that's true. Liverpool, Blackburn, Newcastle, Everton and Spurs all spent more than us during that period, but I'm pretty sure City spent around £10m less.
Which site did you get these numbers from mate?
edit: not sure where that site you linked is pulling its figures from. It says we paid £7,650,000 for Keane. That’s not only more than twice what has always been reported as the fee, it would have absolutely smashed the then British transfer record by several millions.
Various, mostly by checking contemporary press reports where available.Which site did you get these numbers from mate?
No worries, was hoping they were on a site somewhere. As they look pretty accurate from what i remember of those transfers. Other sites vary wildly in their records of transfer fees.Various, mostly by checking contemporary press reports where available.
I've used transferleague in the past, don't think they're 100% accurate but I found them better than transfermarkt.Which site did you get these numbers from mate?
Never even knew this
edit: not sure where that site you linked is pulling its figures from. It says we paid £7,650,000 for Keane. That’s not only more than twice what has always been reported as the fee, it would have absolutely smashed the then British transfer record by several millions.
Thanks I'll check it out.I've used transferleague in the past, don't think they're 100% accurate but I found them better than transfermarkt.
This is a bit flawed, doesn't account for inflation.
edit: not sure where that site you linked is pulling its figures from. It says we paid £7,650,000 for Keane. That’s not only more than twice what has always been reported as the fee, it would have absolutely smashed the then British transfer record by several millions.
The literal opposite has happened. More people are aware of Middle East stuff. They just don't care outside of this debate, because people.Surely there are two separate arguments against City/PSG but slightly different with Chelsea?
1. Cheat code spending: Create fake sponsors or just say f*ck it we buy who we want. Spend a literal multiple of the average of other teams in the league. Create a squad with 2/3 full internationals at every position, buy and then sell if players don't work out and just keep buying til they do. Then, once squad is assembled at huge cost, laude over everyone how much better it is, while they play signings that haven't worked out and youth players, beacuse you know, only you can do it this way.
2. Sportswashing: Use your football team to endear yourself to the Western world so they a: do business with you and b: ignore all those nasty murderous things you do.
For the record, while Roman definitely did nasty stuff to get to where he is, I don't think he uses Chelsea as sportswashing, more likely a way to get money out of Russia into GBP, and because it's just a fun way to spend money, like his fleet of super yachts.
If that is true then why are City only enormously successful under Pep? Pellegrini/Mancini didnt achieve as much. And why (Given all the funding) hasnt ole/LVG/Moyes etc have Utd not succeeded?I guess the question is if/how much you want clubs to be able to spend above their earnings, and more importantly what that means for any 'competition'.
In a sense, United fans' opinions hold less water here - we're rich enough that we're fine.
But for almost every other club, they simply can't compete. And nor should they. It just makes no sense fundamentally to me.
It would be like having a car race between 20 cars, where 18 of them have to be built by the driver, with the drivers' skill, expertise and own funds. There will be variance in thoes factors, but it's still about the driver. Then the other 2 clubs are able to hire Ferrari and Honda or whatever to come in with professional, bleeding edge technology, and lo and behold thoes cars go faster.
It's worse with PSG, but I don't understand how you can even call it a competition at that point or take it seriously at all.
You can dispute which ‘season’ a transfer took place in, especially in the time before modern windows, but the claim I made was that in total over that period Fergie spent less on transfers than City, (no idea about wages, mind) which the full list of transfers shows to be true.@Chabon check your math - has 7m for all of 94-95 but doesn't add May's fee in that total. It's in the separate list, however. Keane's fee isn't part of 93-94 total. He cost just under 4m in 93, guess they added it to 92-93.
If it's net total there could be explanation perhaps.
Is inflation relevant?This is a bit flawed, doesn't account for inflation.
Doesn't negate the brilliant job done by SAF, mind
The Glazers actively funded Trump. Actively assisted a deluded racist to get into power . . and their man organised and funded atrocities in Venezuela, maintained the USA’s torture & deaths camps at Guantanamo et al and etc.Football comes in cycles. Some teams dominate and then fade away. Others come back from the ashes. Right now it should have been the golden age of the PL if it weren't for Chelsea and City. Thanks to the TV sponsorship and Sir Alex's retirement the PL is a more even ground than it has ever been.
Teams like Leicester, Tottenham and Everton have pulled up to the top. While teams like us and Arsenal have faded. It should have been a free for all and the emergence of the new footballing elite, but instead we have a sidebob circus of City and Chelsea winning it non stop and we all know why it is.
It's a shame since if these 2 weren't around, our league would have reverted to how it was back in the 60's. I mean Leicester won it just a few years ago for God's sake. And since
I hate posts like yours, because it down plays Sir Alex's brilliance and equals all our success to the money we spent. But as numerous posters already pointed out, we've never been top spenders during the 90's overall. And ironically we were still dominating the league when we had our "no value in the market" policy and our CM's were consisting of Ando, Cleverly, Scholes on his last league and an ancient Giggs.
Your club on the other hand...
Absolute trainwreck of a post and the fact that you got a like for it makes it even funnier.
Last time I checked the Glazers didn't have to torture, maim or blow up anyone to get and maintain their wealth. And while they did rub shoulder with the American politics, they only got political scraps. They're not a monopoly. It's not like the Glazers can pick up a phone and bomb a country in the middle east. The only way this would be comparable is if Donald Trump or the Clinton Foundation would've been our owners.
Don't get me started on the Mansour family, but since you've absolved him of any blame let's talk about Abramovich.
As someone who grew up in eastern Europe and fluent in russian I've kept up with the news religiously. Abramovich is part of the russian oligarchs who built their wealth in the 90's. Now the thing that nobody talks about in the west is how these oligarchs where "privatizing" the state owned property back then. Except there was no privatizing, it was an economic war.
You'd blow up your competitors or shoot them on the streets in broad daylight. You'd break unwilling sellers by having your muscle pay them a visit while paying off the cops. It was literally the complete wild east. People who had a stake in the gas or oil companies were left to fend for themselves. There were no sherifs or Clint Eastwood to uphold the law. There was even a court battle in the UK between Abramovich and Berezovskii(another russian oligarch) where they had to explain to the court what a "krysha"(organized racket group) is and how it worked.
And no, we're not even remotely close to any of these guys, and that's not even the problem. This isn't an ethics debate, it's a footballing one.
The problem is that these guys use the funds that they've collected though ill gotten means to gain an advantage over the rest of the league. Their "advantage" is literally funded by human suffering and death while other "historic elite" clubs such as us, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle are saddled with the owners debts.
There is no sucking up to be done to clubs that literally can print money out of thin air if they needed to. These guys are playing using cheat codes, and for any non gamers on here, cheat codes are bannable offense in any gaming server. Not in football apparently.
Some good points but to be fair the best salaries in England during the 90's weren't on offer at United.The point about transfers/spending (above) is well made - in general. It's true that United spent relatively "little" compared to what Chelsea and City were up to some years later. Not comparable at all - and also worth noting that United were frequently outspent by the likes of Liverpool (and others - Newcastle, Blackburn, even Everton as mentioned above) both in individual seasons and over longer periods.
However, it has to be said that just looking at total transfer spending over X years might be slightly misleading. The bigger picture also involves salaries - not least. But also the fact that United's financial position allowed us to target the best of the best domestically - and outmuscle rivals. Keane was a record transfer - as was Andy Cole. Both crucial signings that made sure the dominance we were in the process of establishing could continue. City - to make an obvious example - back then wouldn't have been in a position to make those signings - even if they had otherwise been a plausible destination for those players (which they weren't, of course). They spent a lot of money in total - yes - but they didn't have the financial muscle United had in terms of signing the biggest/most expensive targets.
If you (already) have a great team (or even a great team in the making), you don't need to spend a shitload on transfers every season - an obvious point to make, but there you go, it's also part of the bigger picture.
They also donate to democrat presidential campaigns. Most of these US billionaires donate to both parties.The Glazers actively funded Trump. Actively assisted a deluded racist to get into power . . and their man organised and funded atrocities in Venezuela, maintained the USA’s torture & deaths camps at Guantanamo et al and etc.
If you think that the billionaires that pay for presidential campaigns, to put in place their chosen man, can wash their hands of what their man does, then I call you out as being Trump himself and claim my $5.
The glazers donated to Clinton too. All the big wigs play both sides mate.The Glazers actively funded Trump. Actively assisted a deluded racist to get into power . . and their man organised and funded atrocities in Venezuela, maintained the USA’s torture & deaths camps at Guantanamo et al and etc.
If you think that the billionaires that pay for presidential campaigns, to put in place their chosen man, can wash their hands of what their man does, then I call you out as being Trump himself and claim my $5.
Probably true - I would guess that individual players elsewhere made more than United's top earners (the old plc had a policy with regards to that). But it strikes me as a complicated question - would like to see some numbers posted.Some good points but to be fair the best salaries in England during the 90's weren't on offer at United.
It would be interesting to see an overall wage expenditure for all the top clubs back then. Not sure if that info is available anywhere though.Probably true - I would guess that individual players elsewhere made more than United's top earners (the old plc had a policy with regards to that). But it strikes me as a complicated question - would like to see some numbers posted.
It would also be a question of total wages (compared to rivals) - not just who the biggest individual earners were at the time. And a question of bonuses, etc.
Pretty sure Shearer - to make an obvious example - was on more money than any United player at the time in terms of his basic contract.
It wouldn't be if both clubs spent at the same rate over the same period of time. But that's not the case. But ignore me I'm being a nerdIs inflation relevant?
This is an account of money spent by both clubs over the same period of time.
I get you. To be fair, I'd imagine the effect of inflation is pretty negligible looking at the spread of fees per season!It wouldn't be if both clubs spent at the same rate over the same period of time. But that's not the case. But ignore me I'm being a nerd
I might do a progress chart thing of the spending at some point, which would illuminate this a little. We were relatively consistent over the decade, whereas City splurged massively a couple of times either when coming up or worrying about going down (which they did anyway.)I get you. To be fair, I'd imagine the effect of inflation is pretty negligible looking at the spread of fees per season!
He's spent what... £500m-£600m in the last four seasons? Pretty sure that helped as while previous managers supported, don't think to this level.If that is true then why are City only enormously successful under Pep? Pellegrini/Mancini didnt achieve as much. And why (Given all the funding) hasnt ole/LVG/Moyes etc have Utd not succeeded?
You know as well as me it is the manager. Utd had SAF, City now have Pep. And if you believe that City are going to be forever top dog just because of money even when Pep has gone then you're mad. Football doesnt work like that, it takes a brilliant manager to make it work, the money makes it easier.
Man City fans There are some decent folk among you, but then there are the likes of you.The Glazers actively funded Trump. Actively assisted a deluded racist to get into power . . and their man organised and funded atrocities in Venezuela, maintained the USA’s torture & deaths camps at Guantanamo et al and etc.
If you think that the billionaires that pay for presidential campaigns, to put in place their chosen man, can wash their hands of what their man does, then I call you out as being Trump himself and claim my $5.
Nobody is downplaying the level of coaching and club maintenance that SAF did. Man Utd was a top club through both on field and off field management. That gave them a dominant advantage to bring in top players. That was also a time when TV money was individual to each club. Man Utd was raking in TV money while other clubs were getting scraps. All that exposure also drew in players who could get big endorsements. So yes clubs that could use funds, had to spend to get the same level of players. Man Utd was still in a dominant position and in the last 20 years has been spending as much as Chelsea and City. It is really disingenuous to say these clubs are spending their way to the top, Man Utd has just not got the return for their money. Some of that is probably due to a drop in managers since SAF retired. Look at the difference between Lampard and Tuchel with the same players. The other is your management and transfer deals are bizarre. Whom ever is trying to put these deals together is acting like they are going to dictate what other clubs will sell players for? Let alone the agents are never going to advise their clients to accept these deals. Man Utd are no longer the dominant club in the EPL, and most of the reasons are internal, not because City and Chelsea ruined anything. It would be different if you weren't buying expensive players and paying high wages. If Man Utd wants be dominant again, it will take getting back to having a well run club with top management. That does not exist right now and I am pretty sure level headed fans know that. Man Utd no longer values dominating the league. The club owners and management value top 4 for income and selling merchandise. It is who Man Utd is until the people running the club go back to valuing trophies. Right now even the manager says that winning trophies is just an ego boost. If the manager of Chelsea made that statement, I would count the days until he was sacked. You play to win.Football comes in cycles. Some teams dominate and then fade away. Others come back from the ashes. Right now it should have been the golden age of the PL if it weren't for Chelsea and City. Thanks to the TV sponsorship and Sir Alex's retirement the PL is a more even ground than it has ever been.
Teams like Leicester, Tottenham and Everton have pulled up to the top. While teams like us and Arsenal have faded. It should have been a free for all and the emergence of the new footballing elite, but instead we have a sidebob circus of City and Chelsea winning it non stop and we all know why it is.
It's a shame since if these 2 weren't around, our league would have reverted to how it was back in the 60's. I mean Leicester won it just a few years ago for God's sake. And since
I hate posts like yours, because it down plays Sir Alex's brilliance and equals all our success to the money we spent. But as numerous posters already pointed out, we've never been top spenders during the 90's overall. And ironically we were still dominating the league when we had our "no value in the market" policy and our CM's were consisting of Ando, Cleverly, Scholes on his last league and an ancient Giggs.
Your club on the other hand...
Absolute trainwreck of a post and the fact that you got a like for it makes it even funnier.
Last time I checked the Glazers didn't have to torture, maim or blow up anyone to get and maintain their wealth. And while they did rub shoulder with the American politics, they only got political scraps. They're not a monopoly. It's not like the Glazers can pick up a phone and bomb a country in the middle east. The only way this would be comparable is if Donald Trump or the Clinton Foundation would've been our owners.
Don't get me started on the Mansour family, but since you've absolved him of any blame let's talk about Abramovich.
As someone who grew up in eastern Europe and fluent in russian I've kept up with the news religiously. Abramovich is part of the russian oligarchs who built their wealth in the 90's. Now the thing that nobody talks about in the west is how these oligarchs where "privatizing" the state owned property back then. Except there was no privatizing, it was an economic war.
You'd blow up your competitors or shoot them on the streets in broad daylight. You'd break unwilling sellers by having your muscle pay them a visit while paying off the cops. It was literally the complete wild east. People who had a stake in the gas or oil companies were left to fend for themselves. There were no sherifs or Clint Eastwood to uphold the law. There was even a court battle in the UK between Abramovich and Berezovskii(another russian oligarch) where they had to explain to the court what a "krysha"(organized racket group) is and how it worked.
And no, we're not even remotely close to any of these guys, and that's not even the problem. This isn't an ethics debate, it's a footballing one.
The problem is that these guys use the funds that they've collected though ill gotten means to gain an advantage over the rest of the league. Their "advantage" is literally funded by human suffering and death while other "historic elite" clubs such as us, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle are saddled with the owners debts.
There is no sucking up to be done to clubs that literally can print money out of thin air if they needed to. These guys are playing using cheat codes, and for any non gamers on here, cheat codes are bannable offense in any gaming server. Not in football apparently.
I agree.The glazers donated to Clinton too. All the big wigs play both sides mate.
And democratic presidents don’t carry out illegal invasions / drone assassinations on foreign soil /run torture camps / fund the ongoing genocide in illegally occupied Palestine etc?They also donate to democrat presidential campaigns. Most of these US billionaires donate to both parties.