Yep. Pretty much a case of flogging the same group of “legacy fans” for as much as possible, what a gloriously short-term business model to have.
Are the yooof really losing interest in the beautiful game?
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During lockdown there hasn’t been any organised football so it’s been nothing but street football (actually on a university campus, near where we live) I’ve been joining in - with a few other dads - and absolutely loving it.
When the clubs/school football is up and running they don’t have time to play anything other than organised training/games. He trains twice a week with his club, plus a match every weekend. One training session with school, plus a match most weeks. Throw in similar schedules for other sports (cricket, hockey, tennis, swimming) then homework/PlayStation and you can see that spare time is at a premium!
When I played club sports as a kid we only trained once a week, which made a big difference.
It depends on the club of course, but I'm talking United first
Most of the tickets go to season ticket holders and that gets you a fixed seat number (which in my case is nowhere near where my brother sits, despite repeated requests to the club). Getting day tickets is difficult, getting pairs of tickets is harder and getting a group of four say so a family can take the kids is basically something for those awkward mid winter midweek nights and a LC fixture against a lower League team.Once you go for the guaranteed income of ST holders, it's even more important that seat number allocation is used wisely and flexibly. Even simplifying the process to give your ST back to the club for a match you can't get to would help. Like I say, there's been very little invocation in football, and certainly nothing that gives us back the experience I had as a kid - of being able to stand (or even sit) with mates.
Peter Moore spoke about this in 2019 already.
https://www.pcgamer.com/former-ea-s...re-more-interested-in-fortnite-than-football/
https://www.pcgamer.com/former-ea-s...re-more-interested-in-fortnite-than-football/
Kids don't watch football because football is expensive to watch. You have to pay £50 a month for sky and another £30 a month for BT sport. Many parents won't pay £80 a month for expensive TV packages.
I've got Freeview, Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+. I only have Disney because my sister pays for it and we share accounts. I pay for Netflix and Amazon prime is split with siblings too. We're far too tight to waste money on sky.
When i was a kid Serie A was on Channel 4, FA Cup was on BBC, international football was on BBC/ITV, Champions league was on ITV and i can't remember the league cup. We watched loads of football because it was available to watch.
You stick it behind a paywall - a lot of kids don't have the luxury to watch it. My young nephews and cousins are football mad, just like i was at their age - but they only stream matches.
I've got Freeview, Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+. I only have Disney because my sister pays for it and we share accounts. I pay for Netflix and Amazon prime is split with siblings too. We're far too tight to waste money on sky.
When i was a kid Serie A was on Channel 4, FA Cup was on BBC, international football was on BBC/ITV, Champions league was on ITV and i can't remember the league cup. We watched loads of football because it was available to watch.
You stick it behind a paywall - a lot of kids don't have the luxury to watch it. My young nephews and cousins are football mad, just like i was at their age - but they only stream matches.
It's complete horseshit and I'd be surprised if anyone falls for it. Textbook example of blaming the victim of a closed system. Kids can't get to or watch games nowadays unless they've got rich parents. And it's getting worse! more and more subscription models appearing every year.
It used to be you could walk in for next to nothing, now look at it.
It used to be you could walk in for next to nothing, now look at it.
It doesn’t though. What 16 year old pays a Sky Sports subscription? If they’re choosing not to watch PL games that’s got nothing to do with cost.
Once they’re over the age of 18 they can watch the game in the pub if they don’t want to pay expensive subscriptions. That’s what I did at that age. If they’re not doing that then, again, it’s not because they’re being priced out.
So they can watch football as much as they want, for free.
Do they though?
I think the main reason you and I watched stuff like Serie A on channel 4 was because there was feck all else to watch/do. Completely different world now. So much more content competing for attention.
Because of their desire to bankroll 8 figure sum transfers, 6 figure sum weekly wages and a big fat annual bonus, the age bracket he mentions follow football in an incognito way to ensure they don't bankrupt themselves!
Once you're smacked in the face by an inability to watch a game of football because it kicks off at 3pm, you open your eyes to a world out there which lessens the requirement of a paid subscription to domestic broadcasters. Not only can you follow your team in some capacity 100% of the time, but you probably save £55-60 a month in subs.
Give the game back, lower the cost of accessing the product and the numbers will most definitely sky rocket for this age bracket.
Once you're smacked in the face by an inability to watch a game of football because it kicks off at 3pm, you open your eyes to a world out there which lessens the requirement of a paid subscription to domestic broadcasters. Not only can you follow your team in some capacity 100% of the time, but you probably save £55-60 a month in subs.
Give the game back, lower the cost of accessing the product and the numbers will most definitely sky rocket for this age bracket.
Also I don't remember a lot of kids spending their days watching full 90 minute matches when I was younger, I remember Football Italia and loved the concept but I don't remember actually sitting down on a Sunday and watching an hour and a half of it, uninterrupted. The highlight show was always more appealing.
There are more 90 minute games on TV than ever before. It is quite a time commitment. That's not just kids, that's everyone in general. Again in the previous generations there weren't anywhere near as many full matches on. Just because you can watch every match, doesn't mean you will. Previous generations watched the FA Cup final and the World Cup final matches etc because they were a novelty. And going to a game is completely different to watching on TV. You don't get distracted in anywhere near the same way than watching on TV. It's active spectating.
But look at the reaction to the Super League news. People care about football. In fact I'd guess there are more consuming football in some way than any point in the game's history. There is more money in the game than any point in the game's history.
These greedy owners just seems to be looking for extra profit margins where they don't exist so they can pay players £400k a week instead of £200k a week. If football's economic ecosystem crashed at the top level, it really wouldn't hurt the average fan, if anything it would improve the experience.
There are more 90 minute games on TV than ever before. It is quite a time commitment. That's not just kids, that's everyone in general. Again in the previous generations there weren't anywhere near as many full matches on. Just because you can watch every match, doesn't mean you will. Previous generations watched the FA Cup final and the World Cup final matches etc because they were a novelty. And going to a game is completely different to watching on TV. You don't get distracted in anywhere near the same way than watching on TV. It's active spectating.
But look at the reaction to the Super League news. People care about football. In fact I'd guess there are more consuming football in some way than any point in the game's history. There is more money in the game than any point in the game's history.
These greedy owners just seems to be looking for extra profit margins where they don't exist so they can pay players £400k a week instead of £200k a week. If football's economic ecosystem crashed at the top level, it really wouldn't hurt the average fan, if anything it would improve the experience.
Their parents do...or don't. So it's the same thing.
And watching it in the pub doesn't help either. That's a tenner minimum for a drink or something to be in there, and the inconvenience of having to go to the pub in the first place.
The world is making it easier and easier to consume information and media. Football is going the opposite way.
So then the narrative that specifically 16 year olds are priced out of the game is wrong. Everybody is being priced out of the game... or not. With people living with their parents much longer then they did in the past it makes the narrative even less accurate.
If their market research shows interest declining in 16 to 25 year olds more dramatically than, say, 36 to 45 year olds then that can’t be just down to cost.
He more or less has the same schedule than I had, I would still do my homeworks and rush to play outside at every opportunity. On Wednesdays I would almost spend the entire afternoon playing football next to my club, the training session was at 7PM and I would start playing with some of my teammates from around 1.30PM to training time. The crazy thing about it is how resilient kids are, if I tried to that today I would most likely of exhaustion.
Minus the YouTube part and not having a specific club to support, this was my experience as a 90's kid and early 2000's teen. Most kids, even the ones who love football, don't really seem to enjoy watching football for 90 minutes unless it's a huge game. I remember the Euros in 2000 when Norway had their last game in the group stage and a very good chance of advancing. I was the only one of my friends who watched that game. What were my friends doing while the game was on? Playing football
The price of watching football also can't be understated. If your parents aren't football fans, then good luck trying to convince them to pay 50£(or whatever) per month. That is a damn expensive hobby for a single kid from a working class family.
If they gave a shit about kids liking football they'd make it affordable for local families to go to the stadiums.
And make it affordable and accessible for 15-25 year old people to attend games.
Also during the era of terraces you could rock up to Old Trafford etc. With a group of mates and all be together on the terrace having a laugh - nowadays it is very hard to all get tickets and actually be sat together.
And it's quite strict in the grounds - rules against standing, rules against drinking.... lots of other outlets are more relaxed and fun for young people.
And make it affordable and accessible for 15-25 year old people to attend games.
Also during the era of terraces you could rock up to Old Trafford etc. With a group of mates and all be together on the terrace having a laugh - nowadays it is very hard to all get tickets and actually be sat together.
And it's quite strict in the grounds - rules against standing, rules against drinking.... lots of other outlets are more relaxed and fun for young people.
Spot on. I have the exact same experience with a 16 year old.
He has been United obsessed since 4/5 and plays academy football but never actually watches football, apart from clips on Instagram and YouTube.
I actually think him not watching full matches is hindering his progress and I’ve had this battle with him for years now - he may watch the beginning of a big match, say United v City, but he’s back on his phone by the 30th minute and then on the PS5 as the 2nd half starts
Bring back Sky Sports News and Gillette Soccer Saturday as a free channel
Bring back the Champion's League to terrestrial TV
Make match tickets affordable to young people
Make subscriptions affordable to young people.
These rich clubs want to exclusify everything to the rich only, and then wonder themselves why young people who generally have no money of their own are finding other things to do.
Thick as two short planks.
Bring back the Champion's League to terrestrial TV
Make match tickets affordable to young people
Make subscriptions affordable to young people.
These rich clubs want to exclusify everything to the rich only, and then wonder themselves why young people who generally have no money of their own are finding other things to do.
Thick as two short planks.
Seems like it's easy to blame the costs but is that really it? Can't it just be exactly what Perez said, that young audiences simply aren't as interested?
They aren't interested because the free exposure isn't there apart from surprise surprise, youtube or instagram. Everything is pay-per-view. And they sure as hell aren't paying.
Exactly. Your kid and my kid (and their pals) live in homes where they can watch full games and choose not to. So there’s feck all chance of them paying to watch these games when they move out of home. And that’s what’s freaking these clubs out.Spot on. I have the exact same experience with a 16 year old.
He has been United obsessed since 4/5 and plays academy football but never actually watches football, apart from clips on Instagram and YouTube.
I actually think him not watching full matches is hindering his progress and I’ve had this battle with him for years now - he may watch the beginning of a big match, say United v City, but he’s back on his phone by the 30th minute and then on the PS5 as the 2nd half starts
The SEL clubs seem to think that more games between big clubs and less big club vs small club matches will fix this. I don’t think so. My son is a massive Neymar fan (I know
) and watched maybe 30 minutes live of the two legs of Bayern vs PSG in total.
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I'd also say football support has changed - from my social groups or family (mates with younger siblings, or my relatives) I see more support towards players than I do towards clubs.
So if they're pulling data from Instagram/Twitter followers, you'll find the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Pogba and Neymar have stronger followings than their respective clubs.
They can consume their allegiance to their favourite player by going on YouTube or simply following their social media. They might even opt to go down the road of building an FUT Squad around them.
And going back to costs, it is very difficult for that age group to truly follow a club. If you want to go to games, you have to purchase a membership to have an opportunity. If you want to watch games, you have to pitch a business proposal to your parents to double the cost of their Sky/Virgin package, or find a spare £15 a month for a mobile subscription service. If you want to wear a replica top, you have to find £70.
The general interest in football is there for sure, but that tribal allegiance to a club is likely to be less traceable unless you're brought into it alongside your parent(s), like many of us were when football was more affordable (whether that's going to games, or watching on terrestrial TV, or having an affordable Sky deal which offered both CL and PL).
So if they're pulling data from Instagram/Twitter followers, you'll find the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Pogba and Neymar have stronger followings than their respective clubs.
They can consume their allegiance to their favourite player by going on YouTube or simply following their social media. They might even opt to go down the road of building an FUT Squad around them.
And going back to costs, it is very difficult for that age group to truly follow a club. If you want to go to games, you have to purchase a membership to have an opportunity. If you want to watch games, you have to pitch a business proposal to your parents to double the cost of their Sky/Virgin package, or find a spare £15 a month for a mobile subscription service. If you want to wear a replica top, you have to find £70.
The general interest in football is there for sure, but that tribal allegiance to a club is likely to be less traceable unless you're brought into it alongside your parent(s), like many of us were when football was more affordable (whether that's going to games, or watching on terrestrial TV, or having an affordable Sky deal which offered both CL and PL).
I think it's hard to generate real passion when only some kids have access to the full matches. Football is a tribal thing and there needs to be enough free-to-air exposure to get every kid in the playground talking, arguing and fighting over the weekend results during Monday morning recess. A few dudes in the corner chatting about Messi or Neymar will not help.
I think the loss of the Champion's League from terrestrial TV was a huge reduction of exposure to the average kid. Never mind the average kid, even my own interest certainly waned over the years as I don't want to pay for a Sky or BT sub every year. They are expensive!
I think the loss of the Champion's League from terrestrial TV was a huge reduction of exposure to the average kid. Never mind the average kid, even my own interest certainly waned over the years as I don't want to pay for a Sky or BT sub every year. They are expensive!
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I'm 15+ years older than your kids, and can relate. I've not been sure if it's just "falling out of love with the club/our boring football", but managing to watch whole matches seems like a huge chore. Especially in lockdown when it's just you, devoid of alcohol and friends. Even when I do manage to watch a match, I'm distracted most of the time. I go to a couple of matches a year, and it's fun, but not something I could do weekly.Exactly. Your kid and my kid (and their pals) live in homes where they can watch full games and choose not to. So there’s feck all chance of them paying to watch these games when they move out of home. And that’s what’s freaking these clubs out.
The SEL clubs seem to think that more games between big clubs and less big club vs small club matches will fix this. I don’t think so. My son is a massive Neymar fan (I know
This isn't a problem when reading a novel, or rebuilding an old car, or playing a computer game, or even just researching nerdy stuff online. So perhaps it's true that football isn't quite as engrossing to watch as alternatives for the full 90?
Do you 'fix' that by changing the game though? I think not. I don't actually think less money in the game would be a bad thing. The game is still super fun to play. It's the same problem e-sports face when trying to monetise for the big time. People simply aren't generally interested in LONG matches. I think it's why boxing works; a lot of showmanship and other stuff, less actual ring time. F1, Cricket etc have faced the exact same issues. (Unlike others I love T20; I appreciate tests but can't watch 5 days.)
I don't think Perez etc care though; they just wanted bigger slices of the pie.
First of all, why are some of these clubs in a troubling financial situation? Why did Barca spend over 100M each on Coutinho and Dembele?
You can't complain about costs but then splash the cash on huge transfers and high wages.
You can't complain about costs but then splash the cash on huge transfers and high wages.
Trying to compete against teams financed by gulf states will do that to you.
As a teen in the 90s it seems very similar, you had those kids that went to matches, those that watched a lot of televised games and then more casual kids who watched the highlights now and then to those that were fans of certain players and like wearing the shirts but never watched a full game or supported a particular club and many more weren't interested at all. A friend wore Juve stuff becasue of Baggio and some wore Brazil shirts for the skills.
There's probably something to it or perhaps looking at stats we've never had before and seeing something that is probably not that alarming as it looks.
Also as a child/teen there were those friends that weren't interested if football or didn't have a team at school to casual interest but when they started going to the pub as young men they decided to get more into it watching the live games on screen to becoming hardcore matchgoers with coaches picking up 20-30 lads at the pub. Analyzing these young men as kids would yieled the same results as your 14 year old fornite player, youtube watcher. Many of these watched 10mins of Match of the Day in the 90s as youngsters watching youtube clips today.
There's probably something to it or perhaps looking at stats we've never had before and seeing something that is probably not that alarming as it looks.
Also as a child/teen there were those friends that weren't interested if football or didn't have a team at school to casual interest but when they started going to the pub as young men they decided to get more into it watching the live games on screen to becoming hardcore matchgoers with coaches picking up 20-30 lads at the pub. Analyzing these young men as kids would yieled the same results as your 14 year old fornite player, youtube watcher. Many of these watched 10mins of Match of the Day in the 90s as youngsters watching youtube clips today.
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Can’t go social media now without coming across kids with players names in their username trolling etc. I wouldn’t say they’ve lost interest at all, they will likely be watching through streams rather than subscriptions.
Interesting article on this in the Times today by Daniel Finkelstein, where I think his insider vs outsider argument is more broadly talking about UK native vs global fans, but I think a lot of the people doing the talking are really forgetting about the next generation of fans. There needs to be some sort of reform to get people to games. Load of my friends in the whatsapp group were outraged by the "legacy fans" term, but none of them are season ticket holders or regularly got to watch matches and consume their football the way the "future fans" do.
Adults already have the bug and will still make the effort to follow. Kids don't, and won't. They won't be taken to games and they wont make the effort to follow their teams when they're hitting paywalls at every step. Going into adulthood they won't have the same connection to the game.
It's not just down to cost but it is a factor. Growing up, if it wasn't raining i would be out playing football. If i were a kid now i wouldn't be able to do that. The pitches and fields aren't there anymore.
The Premier League selling overseas rights to broadcasters that charge peanuts compared to Sky et al, is a broken structure.
We now have a system where the success of overseas markets can effectively justify removing English teams from English fans. It’s abhorrent.
The collective selling of PL tv rights is now as much a hinderance as an asset. They need to do better.
The PL could probably have a global streaming platform where games cost £1-3 per game and send that global. Don’t sell the rights. Stream them yourself. All money goes into a pot and is split across the football pyramid. The most viewed team doesn’t get more money. It all gets combined and divided for the good of the entire structure.
I’ve ran some very loose calculations and the numbers are incomparable. There’s loads of money left on the table. Why do they need broadcasters?
We now have a system where the success of overseas markets can effectively justify removing English teams from English fans. It’s abhorrent.
The collective selling of PL tv rights is now as much a hinderance as an asset. They need to do better.
The PL could probably have a global streaming platform where games cost £1-3 per game and send that global. Don’t sell the rights. Stream them yourself. All money goes into a pot and is split across the football pyramid. The most viewed team doesn’t get more money. It all gets combined and divided for the good of the entire structure.
I’ve ran some very loose calculations and the numbers are incomparable. There’s loads of money left on the table. Why do they need broadcasters?
No it's a load of shit. In Canada and the USA its only gotten bigger and more widespread for young people with more access to it on a daily basis. Certain viewership numbers might be down because everybody knows how to just do free streaming and they won't pay outrageous sums for it.
We ran a study at work and people aged 16-28 were 27% less interested in sports in the last 5 years compared to 10 years ago.
I don't know the specifics on how it was ran, but it is kind of normal as the instagram/tiktok/gaming platforms evolved heavily in the last half a decade.
Football is dying not because people are no longer interested, it's just built on a poor business model(tv revenue) that inflated everything from salaries to transfers and even prize money.
Now all the clubs realized the bubble will burst and they panicked. This coupled with people's social habits evolving made it even worse.
I haven't missed a United game since 98, be it on tv, home or away but even my interest is slowing down these days because:
- To watch all the games legally would cost about 150 pounds a month (at least for me living in fecking Romania now)
- With COVID and mostly sitting around the house I just want to socialize a bit more during the evenings than watch bad quality sports
- The quality of the game is abruptly going down. Yes, yes, players are fitter, faster, more tactical aware but the game is 10 times more boring now, players rarely shoot outside the box and the technical quality on the ball has vastly decreased as more effort was put into physical and tactical training.
- Fans are dumber and dumber. You go to the stadium and can't fecking enjoy a game anymore because of them fecking idiots either sleeping on their phones either swearing and talking absolute shit the whole game
I don't know the specifics on how it was ran, but it is kind of normal as the instagram/tiktok/gaming platforms evolved heavily in the last half a decade.
Football is dying not because people are no longer interested, it's just built on a poor business model(tv revenue) that inflated everything from salaries to transfers and even prize money.
Now all the clubs realized the bubble will burst and they panicked. This coupled with people's social habits evolving made it even worse.
I haven't missed a United game since 98, be it on tv, home or away but even my interest is slowing down these days because:
- To watch all the games legally would cost about 150 pounds a month (at least for me living in fecking Romania now)
- With COVID and mostly sitting around the house I just want to socialize a bit more during the evenings than watch bad quality sports
- The quality of the game is abruptly going down. Yes, yes, players are fitter, faster, more tactical aware but the game is 10 times more boring now, players rarely shoot outside the box and the technical quality on the ball has vastly decreased as more effort was put into physical and tactical training.
- Fans are dumber and dumber. You go to the stadium and can't fecking enjoy a game anymore because of them fecking idiots either sleeping on their phones either swearing and talking absolute shit the whole game
I agree. My folks aren't really football fans so I did not have the benefit of parents introducing me to the sport. I was a fan through raw, free exposure in the early nineties and that my Liverpool supporting classmates were wankers on the playground. If I was a 12 year old now, no free Gillette Soccer Saturday, no Teletext, no regular midweek Champion's League football to watch United win and Liverpool burn. No free exposure except 5 min highlights on youtube and instagram and 10 min games on FIFA.
I would not be a football fan at all in this current age.
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I do think football is still attractive sports to watch in any generation.
But it is experience to watch especially the full package of all competitions, I got a steaming live to watch when I was young. But when you look the tv rating of the world cup, and the viewer amount is still impressive becuase it mostly was free in some matches or all matches.
if kid feel no interest to watch football, then there is no guarantee that kid like to watch football in so called super league, especially this league would be destroyed the whole foundation of European football.
But it is experience to watch especially the full package of all competitions, I got a steaming live to watch when I was young. But when you look the tv rating of the world cup, and the viewer amount is still impressive becuase it mostly was free in some matches or all matches.
if kid feel no interest to watch football, then there is no guarantee that kid like to watch football in so called super league, especially this league would be destroyed the whole foundation of European football.
This. This forum is guilty of the same mindset at times. The vast majority of people I know - and people on here - are essentially "future fans" without realising it, consuming all of their football content digitally and remotely. The majority of the Caf don't have a season ticket and walk up to the ground through rows of ex-council houses every week. Even if you have a connection to United through family or having lived in the local area, many people have the same relationship with Old Trafford as those fans in the Far East and Africa do, i.e. completely via the Internet and TV.
I think there are a couple of things:
1) People are priced out of attending many clubs. Even if kids tickets are affordable, it is no good unless they have an adult and/or family to ingratiate them into going to football as a weekly ritual.
2) The Internet means everyone, and especially young people, have far more interests than can compete with football for their attention.
3) Because the proportion of "legacy ( regular match-going) fans" and "future fans" is always shifting towards the latter, the big clubs are less minded to focus their efforts on the "legacy fans". Many smaller/provincial clubs have a far greater sense of place and being part of the local community than the big clubs do. Most "future fans" are completely oblivious to the idea of a football club being the centre of a community.
Same - I grew up on more CL football than I did Premier League. All my earliest memories of watching club football on TV are Utd playing in Europe.
The yoof knows how to watch football for free on the internet.
The cost of watching the game has more to do with the dwindling interest more than anything.
Only if they are invested enough to put up with the shite quality, endless loss of connections and buffering!