Paul Pogba v Frenkie De Jong (not the title m1tch wanted to see)

DevTheRed

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Dante said:
So are these guys.

But they play a different game that just happens to use the same sporting apparatus.

It's not consistency that's Pogba's problem. It's that, on the spectrum from footballer to freestyler, he's not close enough to the footballer end.

Talented footballers can do it consistently precisely because they're masters of their craft - that craft being a sport rather than a set of tricks.
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I don’t get your point? Are you saying you thought Pogba was nothing more than a set of tricks and a freestyler?

Ravel Morrison was, according to some ex pros, the most talented player to come through the United academy since George Best.. was he consistent? Was he a master of his craft? No of course not. Just because you have talent doesn’t automatically make you a great footballer, if you’re not determined or work hard enough you won’t make it.

You need more than just talent to become a good footballer.
 

Dante

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DevTheRed said:
I don’t get your point? Are you saying you thought Pogba was nothing more than a set of tricks and a freestyler?

Ravel Morrison was, according to some ex pros, the most talented player to come through the United academy since George Best.. was he consistent? Was he a master of his craft? No of course not. Just because you have talent doesn’t automatically make you a great footballer, if you’re not determined or work hard enough you won’t make it.

You need more than just talent to become a good footballer.
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Do you not know what a spectrum is? Hint: it's not binary.
 

laughtersassassin

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Dante said:
A midfield 3 of De Jong, Van de Beek and Schone got the CL semifinal in 2018/9, knocking out Real Madrid and Juventus along the way.

We already know that VdB isn't a top midfielder. And neither, frankly, was Schone. So FdJ has proven he can elevate those around him rather than needing a supporting cast to elevate him.

I'd expect FdJ to be able to take midfield by the scruff of the neck, the same way Bruno was able to with the attack.
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Your dreaming if you think it'll be a major improvement with him alone
 

Hammondo

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I'm shocked anyone would say Pogba is better or more talented.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Jeppers7 said:
About fifa or shouting at clouds?
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Why are you going on about FIFA? Can't you debate without changing subject? We are talking about how badly wrong you've been all this time about the dabber and about how right I have been.

Also Souness had forgotten more about football than you will ever know. He was a great midfielder and name in top 3 all time players for Liverpool. He knows his stuff and he was right all along.
 

Jeppers7

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Nou_Camp99 said:
Why are you going on about FIFA? Can't you debate without changing subject? We are talking about how badly wrong you've been all this time about the dabber and about how right I have been.

Also Souness had forgotten more about football than you will ever know. He was a great midfielder and name in top 3 all time players for Liverpool. He knows his stuff and he was right all along.
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To be honest I’m not sure what you’re on about, I was talking about DeJong and United. You seem to be having a different conversation, one of which I’ve provided enough data rather than emotive agenda, many many times over. I’m not sure what you think has changed. But I’m not really interested in going over that again Graeme.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Jeppers7 said:
To be honest I’m not sure what you’re on about, I was talking about DeJong and United. You seem to be having a different conversation, one of which I’ve provided enough data rather than emotive agenda, many many times over. I’m not sure what you think has changed. But I’m not really interested in going over that again Graeme.
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Still not accepting you're wrong then? No worries....you go down with your sinking ship.

Do you think De Jong has it or will be go hiding like your favourite dabbing Frenchman?
 

m1tch

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Not the thread title I wanted to see, to be honest. If De Jong isn't likely better than Pogba then why are we interested in him? It's not like the bar was set particularly high to replace him.
 

Jeppers7

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Nou_Camp99 said:
Still not accepting you're wrong then? No worries....you go down with your sinking ship.

Do you think De Jong has it or will be go hiding like your favourite dabbing Frenchman?
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Wrong about what?
 

Dan_F

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Nou_Camp99 said:
Why are you going on about FIFA? Can't you debate without changing subject? We are talking about how badly wrong you've been all this time about the dabber and about how right I have been.

Also Souness had forgotten more about football than you will ever know. He was a great midfielder and name in top 3 all time players for Liverpool. He knows his stuff and he was right all along.
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I’m sure RAWK is accepting new members. The guy is a clown no matter how disappointing Pogba has been for us, being a good player means feck all for punditary.

I won’t comment on him as a player as I’m too young, but regardless of Pogba, the guy is an antique when it comes to football knowledge. I’d rather watch paint dry than watch him on Sky.
 

RedRonaldo

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I'd say Pogba from Juventus/France > FDJ from Ajax/Barca/Netherland.
 

sglowrider

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Its like comparing a supermodel v a good-looking girl next door wearing a 2-piece. One is more useful than the other is different scenarios.
 

In Rainbows

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They're completely different players. And as someone said, they would probably work well together provided you had another Herrera type player next to them. Someone who will work hard.
 

lsd

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Is the question who is best at not wanting to be at United?

In that case I would say it's a draw
 

GazTheLegend

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JPRouve said:
I have seen that several times and it makes no sense to me. Tchouaméni and Pogba aren't a substitute for each other, they do not have the same skill set and they aren't at the same stage of their careers. Real Madrid aren't after 30 years old players, they are trying to build the core of their next generation while their current veterans still have gas in the tank.
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AFC NimbleThumb said:
This./
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? That's nonsense. They just signed 29 year old Rudiger on a free. If Real Madrid thought Pogba was any good they'd have gone in for him. Pogba will go to Juventus, sign a 2 year contract, earn his last big fat paycheck through the brain return scheme, do nothing, then disappear forever.
 

JPRouve

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GazTheLegend said:
? That's nonsense. They just signed 29 year old Rudiger on a free. If Real Madrid thought Pogba was any good they'd have gone in for him. Pogba will go to Juventus, sign a 2 year contract, earn his last big fat paycheck through the brain return scheme, do nothing, then disappear forever.
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Isn't that a different position with different needs and with players aging differently? In central defense they need to add numbers today, especially since apparently Alaba will cover for Marcelo's departure. In midfield their needs aren't for a 4th veteran. But even then Tchouaméni and Pogba do not have the same skill set, at which point do you think anyone would have Pogba and Tchouaméni for the same role?
 

GazTheLegend

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JPRouve said:
Isn't that a different position with different needs and with players aging differently? In central defense they need to add numbers today, especially since apparently Alaba will cover for Marcelo's departure. In midfield their needs aren't for a 4th veteran. But even then Tchouaméni and Pogba do not have the same skill set, at which point do you think anyone would have Pogba and Tchouaméni for the same role?
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You said Real Madrid won't sign a 30 (well, 29 year old, lets be exact) player because they're "trying to build the core of their next generation while their current veterans still have gas in the tank." They clearly WILL sign 29 year old players as per the example I gave you. If they thought Pogba was any good, they'd be in for him, he's still younger than their more equivalent footballers - Modric is 36 now. Pogba is simply not that good. If his skillset (such as it is) is so insanely deficient in the modern game that you have to have two players next to him all the time, what's the point. It's not worth building a team around Pogba anymore. Maybe it never was.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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GazTheLegend said:
? That's nonsense. They just signed 29 year old Rudiger on a free. If Real Madrid thought Pogba was any good they'd have gone in for him. Pogba will go to Juventus, sign a 2 year contract, earn his last big fat paycheck through the brain return scheme, do nothing, then disappear forever.
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No. Your Real Madrid signed centre back = Real Madrid not signing midfielder makes midfielder crap take is nonsense.

If you can’t see the difference between Madrids depth/requirements in midfield versus defence then it’s not really worth having a discussion. Pogba good/bad/indifferent makes no sense as a signing for Madrid for a multitude of reasons. Using it as a stick to further beat him with is what is nonsensical.

Your last sentence shows you’re not really here for any proper discussion anyway.
 

GazTheLegend

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AFC NimbleThumb said:
No. Your Real Madrid signed centre back = Real Madrid not signing midfielder makes midfielder crap take is nonsense.

If you can’t see the difference between Madrids depth/requirements in midfield versus defence then it’s not really worth having a discussion. Pogba good/bad/indifferent makes no sense as a signing for Madrid for a multitude of reasons. Using it as a stick to further beat him with is what is nonsensical.

Your last sentence shows you’re not really here for any proper discussion anyway.
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The original point was that Real Madrid won't sign older players, which you completely ignored, mainly because you know you're wrong and don't want to admit it. Fine. But you're right, there's no discussion left to be had on Pogba. He's another clubs problem now, I hope they sign the 9 players they need to make him look good, because that's what's important after all.
 

JPRouve

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GazTheLegend said:
You said Real Madrid won't sign a 30 (well, 29 year old, lets be exact) player because they're "trying to build the core of their next generation while their current veterans still have gas in the tank." They clearly WILL sign 29 year old players as per the example I gave you. If they thought Pogba was any good, they'd be in for him, he's still younger than their more equivalent footballers - Modric is 36 now. Pogba is simply not that good. If his skillset (such as it is) is so insanely deficient in the modern game that you have to have two players next to him all the time, what's the point. It's not worth building a team around Pogba anymore. Maybe it never was.
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We are talking about midfielders, I didn't think that I needed to tell you in a thread about De Jong and Pogba where you brought up the signing of an other midfielder by Real Madrid.

Now you make an interesting yet absolutely dumb point. First I will say what I have always said, you don't build a team around Pogba or most top players, secondly Real Madrid midfielders play with two players all the time in order to have a balanced midfield and the ability to cover for each others, if we ignore Pogba, your point is still as dumb as it gets.
 

GazTheLegend

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JPRouve said:
We are talking about midfielders, I didn't think that I needed to tell you in a thread about De Jong and Pogba where you brought up the signing of an other midfielder by Real Madrid.

Now you make an interesting yet absolutely dumb point. First I will say what I have always said, you don't build a team around Pogba or most top players, secondly Real Madrid midfielders play with two players all the time in order to have a balanced midfield and the ability to cover for each others, if we ignore Pogba, your point is still as dumb as it gets.
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You said real Madrid won't sign older players. You're wrong. Don't understand what's so hard to comprehend here. Don't call that point "dumb".
 

JPRouve

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GazTheLegend said:
You said real Madrid won't sign older players. You're wrong. Don't understand what's so hard to comprehend here. Don't call that point "dumb".
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No, in the context of a Tchouaméni vs Pogba I told you that the two players are not a substitute for the other because they have different skill sets and that since Madrid are trying to build their new core they don't need a 29 years old player while their veterans still have gas in the tank. We are talking about Real Madrid's midfield here which you know since you brought Real Madrid up for no good reason. And to be clear the veterans are Kroos, Casemiro and Modric, who are starters.

And I will call your point dumb, dumb as hell and even dumber than hell when in the context Real Madrid you have the audacity to talk against the idea of a midfilelder having two other midfielders around him, that's Real Madrid standard setup and they even went a step further by adding Valverde. It's even dumber when you consider the fact that the two other teams that are considered the best have for standard midfield a 3 men midfield.
 

GazTheLegend

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JPRouve said:
No, in the context of a Tchouaméni vs Pogba I told you that the two players are not a substitute for the other because they have different skill sets and that since Madrid are trying to build their new core they don't need a 29 years old player while their veterans still have gas in the tank. We are talking about Real Madrid's midfield here which you know since you brought Real Madrid up for no good reason. And to be clear the veterans are Kroos, Casemiro and Modric, who are starters.

And I will call your point dumb, dumb as hell and even dumber than hell when in the context Real Madrid you have the audacity to talk against the idea of a midfilelder having two other midfielders around him, that's Real Madrid standard setup and they even went a step further by adding Valverde. It's even dumber when you consider the fact that the two other teams that are considered the best have for standard midfield a 3 men midfield.
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Ok we can play that game. Your points are all moronic. Saying that Real Madrid won't sign Pogba because there's gas in the tank of 36 year old modric is an insanely dumb point. Do you see where this goes? They won't sign Pogba because Pogba is crap. Bye.
 

FrankWhite

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TwoSheds said:
This thread's going well.
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Right? :lol: People love an argument. Firstly, Comparing Pogba to De Jong makes no sense. Different type of midfielders. What Pogba gets criticised for here is what De Jong is good at. What it appears De Jong gets criticised for at Barca is what Pogba is good at.
One is our past, the other appears to be future.
The only real thing they'll have in common is that they are both Marquee signings in midfield. I expect De Jong to fair much better here especially as he's coming in under more favourable circumstances, with a manager that knows how to get the best out of him.
 

JPRouve

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GazTheLegend said:
Ok we can play that game. Your points are all moronic. Saying that Real Madrid won't sign Pogba because there's gas in the tank of 36 year old modric is an insanely dumb point. Do you see where this goes? They won't sign Pogba because Pogba is crap. Bye.
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I see where it goes, you made a dumb point and can't sustain it. I'll repeat it for the sake of it, you criticize Pogba for allegedly requiring two other midfielders while using Real Madrid as an example of Pogba not being good enough. Real Madrid midfielders play with at least two other midfielders, they even played with 3 during the CL final, we also know that Modric and Kroos struggled as a duo until the introduction of Casemiro.

There are reasons to be against the signing of Pogba, you can't rely on him to be fit or consistent which is not a good combination for a player that is supposed to be in his prime. But this has nothing to do with Tchouaméni or the use of a midfield three.
 

Forevergiggs1

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m1tch said:
Not the thread title I wanted to see, to be honest. If De Jong isn't likely better than Pogba then why are we interested in him? It's not like the bar was set particularly high to replace him.
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Instead of people asking who is the better player I think the more important question is who would be a better fit for United? The answer to that, at least in my opinion is clearly FDJ.
 

tenpoless

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Frenkie : Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
 

lex talionis

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In terms of ability at peak, which Franklin Delano Jong has not reached yet, I’d give the edge to Pogba. But if I may take the opportunity to whinge, Pogba completely failed to take the leadership role United needed him to take. Ability galore, charisma is spades, and articulate in important ways off the pitch, Paul Pogba had it all but he rarely ever put in the commanding performances we all know he was variable of.

We’ll see if Frenkie is up to the challenge of leading a squad which desperately needs a leader. Ronaldo will be gone soon and Maguire can’t be relied on, even if he keeps the armband. What’s he’s shown so far in his career is that he’s fully focused on business on the pitch and has it within him to do the job, not just play the part.
 

Lewnited

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Ideally, you'd have them both in midfield with a pretty solid defensive midfielder.

PP at United and FdJ at Barca have had near enough the same issue in being pushed in to a role in which they're 'serviceable', but not one that best suits their skillset. Pretty tough to say who's better, but I definitely would have liked to see them both in the same team.
 

Bobski

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Dante said:
A midfield 3 of De Jong, Van de Beek and Schone got the CL semifinal in 2018/9, knocking out Real Madrid and Juventus along the way.

We already know that VdB isn't a top midfielder. And neither, frankly, was Schone. So FdJ has proven he can elevate those around him rather than needing a supporting cast to elevate him.

I'd expect FdJ to be able to take midfield by the scruff of the neck, the same way Bruno was able to with the attack.
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A midfield containing guys like Winks, Wanayama and Sissoka got to the CL final in 2018/19. knocking out Dortmund, City and Ajax along the way.

Lets not do the Donny thing again and read too much into that.

I want FDJ but expecting him to change it by himself is too much.
 
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