3 at the back?

You're wingbacks are crucial in 3 at the back. They need to contribute even more in attack.

We always seem to leak goals when we try it.

It's not Ten Hag's formation.

Martinez is doing fine in the air.

So no thanks

Wasn't there made a thread about this a day or two ago?

TheReligion said:

Would this be a better system moving forward?

- Help compensate for Maguire’s lack of pace
- Prevent Martinez being targeted in the air
- Allow CBs to take turns at carrying the ball out with cover
- Provide more options when building from the back
- Make us more difficult to play through down the centre

The formation would allow more flexibility in and out of possession and would like suit our full backs given the defensive issues in Dalot etc

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When you are so exposed, it’s normally the go to solution for the short term. I just don’t think ETH will do it as he’s never been known to use that system.

We got spanked by City and Liverpool when we reverted to it last season anyway so it doesn’t give me much hope.

I think with Nunes suspended it makes things easier for Martinez. I'd drop 'Arry and stick Varane in beside him before going to a back three after only two games.

Don't think it's a system ETH has ever really played. But if the CDM issue can't be solved and we can get a RWB instead, it's a good option

The problem is what do you do with Bruno Fernandes in this set up? I don't think he has a position in the system

Sancho-----Martial------Eriksen
Shaw------Fred ------ CM ------ RWB
-Martinez -- Maguire --Varane

Lynty said:

You're wingbacks are crucial in 3 at the back. They need to contribute even more in attack.

We always seem to leak goals when we try it.

It's not Ten Hag's formation.

Martinez is doing fine in the air.

So no thanks

Click to expand...

Agree with everything other than Martinez is doing fine in the air!? Did you watch the Brentford game on Sunday where they hit long ball after long ball in martinezs direction and he won none of his aerial duels and the to compound it a little more lost an aerial duel to a stooping ben mee on the goal line? Hes not doing fine in the air at all, 1 and a half games into his PL career and teams have worked out and exposed a massive flaw in his game.

It's a great suggestion but it wasn't the formation that was the issue . Just cut the individual mistakes and we would be fine.

Skills said:

Don't think it's a system ETH has ever really played. But if the CDM issue can't be solved and we can get a RWB instead, it's a good option

The problem is what do you do with Bruno Fernandes in this set up? I don't think he has a position in the system

Sancho-----Martial------Eriksen
Shaw------Fred ------ CM ------ RWB
-Martinez -- Maguire --Varane

Click to expand...

The way he played since he signed his new contract, he shouldn't have a position in any system.

Shame we never tried it in preseason.

Lynty said:

You're wingbacks are crucial in 3 at the back. They need to contribute even more in attack.

We always seem to leak goals when we try it.

It's not Ten Hag's formation.

Martinez is doing fine in the air.

So no thanks

Click to expand...

Depends really. You can play 3-3-1-3 the way Bielsa did. But you need 3 high energy midfielders to play in the midfield.

I think Fred would do well in that, if we have a right sided version of him to play the other side and a more expansive midfielder in the midfielder it could work.

Still needs a lot of recruitment for it though. Your wingers are then vital though because that's your main source of width.

10 teams played with 3 CBs this weekend in the PL I think. It's strange I have never seen it be this popular in England before or has it?

3 at the back might be good for a short term option… obviously most big teams play a 4-3-3 and try to dominate. We don’t have a decent enough midfield to play that at the minute. 3 at the back will also compensate for Maguires lack of pace. We’ve got ball playing defenders so they’d be good at coming out from the back. Both wing backs would have to get up and down the pitch a lot though, they’d have to help more in attack especially and link up with the wingers. I’d give it a go definitely.

Skills said:

Don't think it's a system ETH has ever really played. But if the CDM issue can't be solved and we can get a RWB instead, it's a good option

The problem is what do you do with Bruno Fernandes in this set up? I don't think he has a position in the system

Sancho-----Martial------Eriksen
Shaw------Fred ------ CM ------ RWB
-Martinez -- Maguire --Varane

Click to expand...

you drop him, which is what should be happening anyway. I would like to see us go to a 3 man midfield. We've seen United managers go to 3 CBs before without any real intent on making it the system going forward, just playing it as a reaction to poor defending.

I guess this could also transition into a 3-4-3 but would prefer they try and avoid going to three at the back because that isn't how ETH wants to play. I am not a fan of Maguire on the right, despite being right footed I think he looks more comfortable on the left.

Longshanks said:

Agree with everything other than Martinez is doing fine in the air!? Did you watch the Brentford game on Sunday where they hit long ball after long ball in martinezs direction and he won none of his aerial duels and the to compound it a little more lost an aerial duel to a stooping ben mee on the goal line? Hes not doing fine in the air at all, 1 and a half games into his PL career and teams have worked out and exposed a massive flaw in his game.

Click to expand...

They hit plenty in his direction. They succeeded on one occasion (the goal), where you could make a case for multiple others failing to win the first ball, and then leaving him against two for the second ball.

Bigger deal being made out of his height than it actually is. It's an easy narrative.

Varane Maguire Martinez
Elenga Rabiot de Jong Malacia
Sancho Martial Garnacho

I think 3 atb would be the best solution to stop leaking goals. At least until we get some momentum and start winning some games.

Grylte said:

Wasn't there made a thread about this a day or two ago?

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Came to say the same thing.

The subject is redundant under EtH but people enjoy labouring points around here.

No. Ten Hag never used it and wouldn't have trained it. Doesn't prevent individual issues that we've been seeing. Also doesn't change our midfield from giving it away constantly.

I'd put Martinez in a pivot with Rabiot when we get him. At least get some solidity. Get Varane and Lindelof as centerbacks to get some pace in, Malacia at left back to have the intensity in... At least then you'd have a midfield and defence that works hard and knows how to defend and isn't severely lacking in pace/physicality.

Lynty said:

It's not Ten Hag's formation.

Click to expand...

bosnian_red said:

No. Ten Hag never used it and wouldn't have trained it.

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People assume that Ten Hag is some purist/idealist married to a formation like Pep for some reason, but he's really not. He used 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 at Ajax, and 5-3-2 and a 4-4-2 diamond at Utrecht before that.

If we signed someone like Denzel Dumfries (who would add a lot of needed bite and physicality as well), I could see a back three working very well for us. Main problem is of course that we need so many fecking signings everywhere else no matter what system we play that it's unlikely.

V.O. said:

People assume that Ten Hag is some purist/idealist married to a formation like Pep for some reason, but he's really not. He used 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 at Ajax, and 5-3-2 and a 4-4-2 diamond at Utrecht before that.

If we signed someone like Denzel Dumfries (who would add a lot of needed bite and physicality as well), I could see a back three working very well for us. Main problem is of course that we need so many fecking signings everywhere else no matter what system we play that it's unlikely.

Click to expand...

I wouldn' t know what he did at Utrecht. I assume 99% of people on this forum would either, and i'd be dubious of anyone claiming to have regualrly watched Utrecht unless they live in Netherlands.

4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 are very similar, or at least follow close enough patterns of play to be quite fluid through a single game. Changing from high pressing back 4 (with full backs asked to come inside) to a back 5 would be a pretty substantial shift in direction - which would be worrying considering we've started the season and shown no indication we've even practiced a back 3 or 5 in pre-season.

I'd prefer him to have the balls to stick to his original plan, and get the players he needs.

Skills said:

The problem is what do you do with Bruno Fernandes in this set up? I don't think he has a position in the system

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Tend to agree, when there is 'no system' his unpredictability can be unplayable, when there is a system his unpredictability is devastating especially when he goes'walk about'.

its got to be Eriksen or Fernandes, not both!

Lynty said:

You're wingbacks are crucial in 3 at the back. They need to contribute even more in attack.

We always seem to leak goals when we try it.

It's not Ten Hag's formation.

Martinez is doing fine in the air.

So no thanks

Click to expand...

I have mixed opinions on it and you've highlighted some of the problems but I would like to see it tried for a few reasons ...

• I do think centre back is our strongest position in the squad and that half of our defensive frailties come from hopelessly inept full backs and no midfield screen. 3 centre backs would just add an extra body in there and hopefully settle things down. Malacia at LWB would be interesting to see as he seems to be adept at breaking forward. Sadly this also means Dalot at RWB
• Rashford, Sancho and Elanga, i'm sorry to say, just don't add anything at the moment from the wide positions in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.
• 5 at the back in the initial phase is more options to play from the back.

Personally I think it might be worth a shot.

Lynty said:

I wouldn' t know what he did at Utrecht. I assume 99% of people on this forum would either, and i'd be dubious of anyone claiming to have regualrly watched Utrecht unless they live in Netherlands.

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Oh no, I'm rumbled. I'm not actually Dutch so I must have just made it up.

You don't have to have watched Utrecht to know the formations he used, no more than you needed to have watched every game Rangnick coached to be aware that he's known for trying to play pressing football before we hired him.

Lynty said:

I'd prefer him to have the balls to stick to his original plan, and get the players he needs.

Click to expand...

It's not about "balls". He's shown to have the flexibility to change his plans to the players he has. There's every chance he'll continue to think the formation we're going with will work, but if he changes it to something that ends up working better, that's not weakness, it's adaptability.

Lynty said:

They hit plenty in his direction. They succeeded on one occasion (the goal), where you could make a case for multiple others failing to win the first ball, and then leaving him against two for the second ball.

Bigger deal being made out of his height than it actually is. It's an easy narrative.

Click to expand...

Its not an easy narrative its an easy out ball, easy tactic. Ten hag wants us to high press and win the ball back high up the pitch that's not gonna a happen with such an easy out the vast majority of the high balls martinez contested of Saturday ended up with the ball drooping loose in and around our defensive line thats immediate pressure for us no mmatter who wins it, Brentford won a fair few of those loose balls and built attacks and pushed us back from them. Just because they didn't immediately score from them is fairly irrelevant, you can't impose yourselves on the game if the other team is constantly pushing you back.

In the compilation its shows a long ball that ended in Maguires vicinity he wins the header comfortably and heads it back towards brentfords defensive line for the second ball to be contested there. Keep doing that and win enough of those loose balls you can push the other team back and there long ball put ball is no longer effective almost forcing them to try and play out giving us the opportunity to press high and impose ourselves on the game.

Martinez because of his height can not do that enough against the big physical strikers in the PL hence we get pushed back and will struggle to impose ourselves on the game.

Longshanks said:

Martinez because of his height can not do that enough against the big physical strikers in the PL hence we get pushed back and will struggle to impose ourselves on the game.

Click to expand...

Plus we have a keeper who everyone knows doesn't like to come out and command his box, especially at corners!!
ETH must have another plan for Martinez, surely???

Longshanks said:

Its not an easy narrative its an easy out ball, easy tactic. Ten hag wants us to high press and win the ball back high up the pitch that's not gonna a happen with such an easy out the vast majority of the high balls martinez contested of Saturday ended up with the ball drooping loose in and around our defensive line thats immediate pressure for us no mmatter who wins it, Brentford won a fair few of those loose balls and built attacks and pushed us back from them. Just because they didn't immediately score from them is fairly irrelevant, you can't impose yourselves on the game if the other team is constantly pushing you back.

In the compilation its shows a long ball that ended in Maguires vicinity he wins the header comfortably and heads it back towards brentfords defensive line for the second ball to be contested there. Keep doing that and win enough of those loose balls you can push the other team back and there long ball put ball is no longer effective almost forcing them to try and play out giving us the opportunity to press high and impose ourselves on the game.

Martinez because of his height can not do that enough against the big physical strikers in the PL hence we get pushed back and will struggle to impose ourselves on the game.

Click to expand...

Could not agree with this more.

This video is being presented as Martinez not "losing" any of these personal battles.

What I see is barely a single instance of the ball going back where it came from.

If the same proportion of balls had been played into Maguires space, 90% would have been going straight back.... basically every single one became a contested second ball in our defensive 3rd.

How is that a good thing??

No, not With our options for attacking wingbacks. Anyway, until we cure our ‘open door’ policy in midfield which allows any old attacker free reign on our goal any tweaks to the defence is akin to moving deckchairs on the Titanic.

TheReligion said:

Would this be a better system moving forward?

- Help compensate for Maguire’s lack of pace
- Prevent Martinez being targeted in the air
- Allow CBs to take turns at carrying the ball out with cover
- Provide more options when building from the back
- Make us more difficult to play through down the centre

The formation would allow more flexibility in and out of possession and would like suit our full backs given the defensive issues in Dalot etc

Click to expand...

Been saying this for at least 12 months.

‘The 3rd CB can act as a DM to defend between the lines. McFred are constantly out of position, and having that 3rd CB for cover in the deeper areas of midfield is critical.

agree with your other points too.

I like 3 at the back and think it cover for a load of our deficiencies. Martinez is getting a lot of criticism, and it is a potential weakness having him in a back two, but it's also not unworkable. There's also the fact that none of our CBs, other than Varane, are of great quality. Maguire in particular is slow, and Lindelof passive and weak the closer he gets to our goal, they'd each benefit from being RCB in a 3 with Varane covering. Plus, all of our weaker CBs are to an extent good with the ball at their feet. Being RCB or LCB in a back three allows them more scope to bring the ball forwards. It's not just about bolstering the defence.

Also there's the fact that our wide forwards are not great when they're out on the touchline, they're preference is to come more central. Wing backs pushing high and wide would free them up. Our centre mids would also be under less pressure with greater numbers for passing options, and split responsibility to try and get the ball between opposition lines. The only major weakness going for a back 3 with our present squad is RWB. And we need a RB anyway, so one who would be equally comfortable RB or RWB would give us plenty of options.

Another problem of our own making is attempting to play out from the back in a back four. Even teams playing with 2 CBs tend to build possession with a back 3, and ETH at Ajax did so too (earlier on with De Jong dropping from midfield to LCB, and later on Blind moving inside from LB). Against a decent pressing team, it's a big ask to build from the back in the manner we attempted the first couple games, and our players individually don't excel in doing so. Building possession from the back 3 would help us immensely. Although, this could be done without playing 3 CBs, if a full back or DM moves in to a back three in that phase of play.