Yeah Messi had played 998 games before the wc. If roughly 1000 games isnt enough games to judge a player by i don't know what is. In terms of a narrative though it fit perfectly with his career ending in ultimate glory and could finally be put together with Diego as national heroes.
Top 10 greatest players of all time
- Thread starter tentan
- Start date
Beckenbauer has usually been top 4 for decades untill Messi and Ronaldo. In the goat discussion anyway.
I cant rank Pele because I havent watched him when he was playing, same for Di Stefano and some others but from my contemporaries it's
1. Maradona
2. Messi
and then there is a HUGE gap in between those two and the next tier
Christiano Ronaldo only excites lovers of statistics and fitness, but he never gave me the same kind of emotion as Maradona or Messi, especially after he left and I wasn't excited by just him scoring for us
P.S. I don't know why people would rank Cruyff (as player) or Beckenbauer higher than Beckham. I think Beckham was at least as good as either of those if not better. I can only explain it by people really caring about national team performances. In modern football, I think club football has become head and shoulders higher level than world cups etc. Maybe gap was smaller in the past
1. Maradona
2. Messi
and then there is a HUGE gap in between those two and the next tier
Christiano Ronaldo only excites lovers of statistics and fitness, but he never gave me the same kind of emotion as Maradona or Messi, especially after he left and I wasn't excited by just him scoring for us
P.S. I don't know why people would rank Cruyff (as player) or Beckenbauer higher than Beckham. I think Beckham was at least as good as either of those if not better. I can only explain it by people really caring about national team performances. In modern football, I think club football has become head and shoulders higher level than world cups etc. Maybe gap was smaller in the past
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Didn't Ronaldo scoring with his dick at United feel a bit dirty?
I take it you mean Best?
Not at all, either you have a preference yourself or you haven’t followed these discussions
Beckenbauer has always been part of the Goat player discussion basically until the time social media took over and it became a popularity contest. But even since then he’s been considered the greatest defender of all time by almost all the football world.
Maldini has only ever been part of the goat defender discussion but not the goat player discussion like Beckenbauer. A lot of older Milan fans will actually rate Baresi above Maldini too, as #2 and #3 greatest defenders after Beckenbauer.
There is no HUGE gap between Messi and Ronaldo, who provided plenty of emotion with United and Real. A gap yes, but hardly huge. Beckham may be underappreciated, but he's no top ten of all time candidate.
Messi
Pele
Ronaldo
Maradona
Beckenbauer
Cruyff
Zidane
Maldini
Charlton
Ronaldo I
I can't comment on Puskas and De Stefano as they played before I started watching football.
How old are you? So you have seen all those players and remember them?
I mean.. it is one thing to have Beckham higher than Cruyff and Beckenbauer (which I already see as very, very unrealistic) but not knowing how somebody could see them ahead?
Cruyff and Beckenbauer were seen as the best of their era, won very big titles as the best players of their teams and multiple Ballon D'Ors. Beckham is hardly seen as a top 10 player at his peak, let alone the best of his generation. If Beckham should make a top 10 list, so should Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo, Del Piero, Henry, Nedved, Pirlo and a bunch of others who were greater contemporaries and that's stretching it a bit.
George Best has to be top 10
I mean Beckham had one of the sweetest right foots ever, but he´s not in the same stratosphere as Cryuff. Like George Best said in comparisons to himself in regards to Beckham. "He doesnt dribble, He cant tackle, he has no left foot, isnt good at headers and he doesnt score many goals. apart from that he´s alright".
Ranking Beckham better than Best doesnt make sense either.
No I was more saying he meant Beckenbauer and Cruyff wasn’t as good as Best, which makes more sense.
Ahh yes, that makes more sense. Best was amazing in the footage I've seen from him
Beckham wouldn't even make the top 10 from 98-03...Cruyff and Beckenbauer wouldn't either though.
If they were eternally young they totally would.
The narrative is all that changed. His every kick of a ball could be identical but he wouldn't have won a world cup. It can be really silly judging individual players by trophies given football is such a team game.
I completely agree. Its silly to judge player ultimately on the whole teams performance and something as jammy as a pk shoot out or Higuain fecking up a 1 vs 1 in 2014.
Wait a min.. what.. you mean Beckham?
If thats not a typo, you are probably the first person I've ever heard rating Beckham above Cruyff and Beckenbauer.
Just a question and not scrutinising your list in anyway, but what is your reason for having Maradona 2 tiers above Platini? Going into the 1986 World Cup, Platini was the best player in the world. He had just won Serie A twice, the European Cup Winners Cup and the European Cup with Juventus in the 3 years leading up to the World Cup, along with winning the European Championship with France in 1984.
Then Maradona went and won the World Cup (only through some outrageous cheating), then obviously lead Napoli to the Serie title over the great Juventus and Milan teams, (twice in 4 years from 1986-1990).
I am not sure how a tournament of less than 10 games and winning the league title with the underdogs (they still had a very good team) really warrants him being 2 tiers above Platini, if anything there is not much to separate them both and is unfair on Platini.
Platini was magical.
Platini is just really really underrated because of the recency bias of Zidane. And i think Platini was the better player.
Best
Pele
Messi
Ronaldo
Charlton
After all even Pele said that Best was the best and who are we to dispute that.
Pele
Messi
Ronaldo
Charlton
After all even Pele said that Best was the best and who are we to dispute that.
1. Pelé
2. Maradona
2. Messi
4. Beckenbauer
5. Cruyff
6 to 10 in any order. Di Stefano, Puskas, Müller, Ronaldo, Zidane.
2. Maradona
2. Messi
4. Beckenbauer
5. Cruyff
6 to 10 in any order. Di Stefano, Puskas, Müller, Ronaldo, Zidane.
He also said that, if he had to choose another player's skills, it would be Dirceu Lopes.
I think its a case of Maradona being better footballer, and has reached highest peak ever, and the fact he has made the biggest ever impact on the biggest stage edges it over Platini. But Platini for me would be ranked at no.8, just behind the likes of Messi, Pele, Ronaldo, Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff and Beckenbauer, and probably above everyone else. However if you asked me why he wasn't ranked in same tier along the likes of Di Stefano, Cruyff or Beckenbauer, I wouldn't necessarily disagree.
But my own criteria would be:
Tier 1: achieved something huge, unmatched and unrivalled in football history and at all levels, with long periods of dominance, always among GOAT discussion
Messi - 8 Ballon D'ors, has won every major trophies and individual awards at club and international level, hold most records in football, extremely talented, insane period of dominance in football (14 times Ballon D'or winner or runners up)
Pele - 3 WC, 1000+ unofficial goals records, won everything at club and country level, pioneer in football, insane period of dominance in football (recognised as best player of the world for at least 7 times from 1958 to 1970)
Ronaldo - won 5 CL as best player/top scorer, all time top goalscorer in football, also at club and international level, hold most records in football, achieved unprecedented success for his clubs and country, extremely clutched/driven, insane period of dominance in football (12 times Ballon D'or winners or runners up)
Maradona - reached the highest ever peak and made biggest impact on the biggest stage, extremely talented, achieved legacy level of success for his club and country. very long period of dominance in football (won most major eligible individual awards from 1979 to 1989)
Tier 2: revolutionised the game and achieved unmatched legacy in football (but lacking one final push to become GOAT)
Di Stefano - most completed player and arguably greatest club footballer ever, with total domination in domestic and European football (but lacking intentional success)
Cruyff - as footballer he was at all time great level, and revolutionised the game as "total footballer" which was unique in football history, with unforgettable performances in biggest stage (but lacking major trophies for his countries)
Beckenbauer - revolutionised the game with his playmaking sweeper role, which was unique in football history. Won everything at club and country level, (however he wasn't as "dominance" as other GOAT during his time, maybe because of him being a defender)
Tier 3 - among all time greats in football history, easily the best player in their respective era with outstanding achievements (but lack of unmatched legacy to go up to tier 2)
Platini - best player in the world during his peaks for few good years, outstanding stats thoughout his career or peak years, won everything in Serie A and also Euro trophy for France as tournament top goalscorer (but probably lack of something extra that would be regarded as unmatched in football history)
Same would go for Garrincha, Puskas, Charlton, Best, Eusebio, Muller, L.Ronaldo and Zidane
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Still Best was 'the best' for him.
I meant that Pelé's taste wasn't that reliable.
Really?
And how d'you know this?
I thought that a seamless loop was a TikTok thing.
I think I've already answered that...
Pele was never the kind of guy who would boast about him as the greatest of all time, either during or after his playing days.
For real, no trolling, but do people realize the sort of treatment that Maradona was given in general and more related to your statement in every WC he played?
And even more in particular in that game, Fenwick alone was way beyond any legal boundary.
I wonder why atrocious elbows, constant harsh or even merely tactical fouling it's ok, "part of the game" but an out of the blue non legal improvisation it's a lot lot worse. I guess it's some sort of residual from the "it's a man game", that BTW applies a lot more with other sports than football were that physical aspect of it's less cynical as a whole like Rugby (not saying that like any sport Rugby does not have its share of over the top violence involved).
Indeed Platini was an incredible player, I'll still preffer him over Zidane. A monster of a player like Zico from that era, both for me deserve more recognition than they usually get.
PD: I trully believe that the whole "hand of god" it goes beyond football, that the real "bad" thing Diego did in such ocasion is adding salt to the injury with what he said afterwards and in a more let's say "subconcious"way, the display of his extreme cunning personality, ability and improvisation skills from the play itself, even if being illegal, it cut deeper than expected in the very essence of the English character.
Let's rant a bit, it's no mistery that England (like any historically conflictive originally tribal country...Germany, Japan share some of this aspects too) needed to create a sense of Unity, a Unifed image since ages.
When England became the greatest Empire in the world, they needed to build that IMAGE more than ever. This created some sort of very deep dual personality: the classic cunning, subversive, witty and clever attributes (among the rules or beyond them) that were needed since centuries to mainly survive or prevail after constant invasions/ menace from enemies that not few times had a lot more more resources couldn't be the WAY to be present to the world. It didn't suit the level of importance of the Greatest Empire in the World.
The Order needed to become an be an empire, while building a unifying sense of pride created some sort of over the top "hollier than you", respectable, self pride that not few times it's bordering mere hipocrisy like in that "infamous hand of god" play.
This does not imply that indeed order, a lot more respect for rules, a better understanding and more respectfull interactions among citizens within England itself was not achieved, because IT certainly was, but come on...what Diego did there was out witt for once perhaps the cleverest country ever, it even made people like freaking Fenwick talk about "rules, honor, etc" while being a freaking tug the whole fecking game...the Scotts were the first that trully capture what really was going on and didn't wait a sec to abuse the moment and enjoyed it as their own. Just my two cents, but I trully think that there is more than some little truth in my view.
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In fairness one was 53 and the other 51
Apart from him starting to include friendly goals to stay ahead as the all time top scorer
Do you have a shorter version? Nobody's reading this
Man it's not "in search of lost time"Do you have a shorter version? Nobody's reading this
...but let me try...what really bothered was Diego's words after the "event", he added salt to the wound and he was more cunning and clever for once than perhaps the more cunning country ever, that sometimes seems to not want to remember they allways excell at it. I trully believe also that it's way more outrageous the way Diego was treated in that match (and allways) than an illegal in the heat of the moment improvisation. Yet like I've said, Diego made a meal of the situation, no doubt.
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I’m just going on players I’ve grown up watching since 95 or so.
1) Ronaldo
2) Messi
3) Zidane
4) Roy Keane
5) Fat Ronaldo
6) Ronaldinho
7) Kevin De Bruyne
8) Rooney/Henry
9) Xavi
10) Iniesta
1) Ronaldo
2) Messi
3) Zidane
4) Roy Keane
5) Fat Ronaldo
6) Ronaldinho
7) Kevin De Bruyne
8) Rooney/Henry
9) Xavi
10) Iniesta
It's scandalous that people only judge Maradona on the 1986 World Cup (which he was out of this world) and the two titles in Napoli. People never talk about how he was smashing up the South American league from 16 years old.
In those days all the players from the 1978 Argentina team (bar Kempis) and the 1982 Brazil team (bar Falco) were all playing there. Flamingo were smashing up the "best ever" Liverpool team in the Club championship.
Platini was great, but he should never be mentioned in the same breath as Maradona!
I'm surprised how few people have Ronaldo among the top spots. Yes, his peak was really short and he never got to fulfill his potential but what he showed for Barca, Inter and Brazil was like a glitch in the matrix. Judging by footage available, I find it really hard to confidently rank Messi, Maradona, Pelé and Ronaldo since watching one of them at their peak always make you think "it is impossible to be better than this". As good as the other greats are, no other player impresses me in the same fashion and judging by this thread, most people seem to feel the same about Messi, Maradona and Pelé but seemingly not Ronaldo.