James Garner - Player Watch

andersj · Feb 3, 2024

Was quite impressive today. Been good in other games I’ve seen them too, but today he stood out. It was a performance similar to what we saw from him so many times at our U23-team. Full of energy and with real determination.

I think there was talk of a buy back-clause? Not sure it will ever be relevant, but he is still just 22. I could see him have a similar trajectory to Michael Carrick who went to quite a poor Tottenham-side at that age (was 25 when he went to Man Utd with quite a few fans in here underwhelmed by the signing).

Everton was probably a good move for him, but was it a mistake selling him?

SirSteve4 · Feb 3, 2024

Watched the game, he played well today but he is not good enough for United (Better than some of the ones we still have clanking around - looking at you McT).

Good honest pro, but nothing special.
I feel he’ll end up having a Cleverley type of career in a mid table side (Yes I know we are mid table, but hopefully the INEOS injection pays off over the next cou

elmo · Feb 3, 2024

andersj said:
Was quite impressive today. Been good in other games I’ve seen them too, but today he stood out. It was a performance similar to what we saw from him so many times at our U23-team. Full of energy and with real determination.

I think there was talk of a buy back-clause? Not sure it will ever be relevant, but he is still just 22. I could see him have a similar trajectory to Michael Carrick who went to quite a poor Tottenham-side at that age (was 25 when he went to Man Utd with quite a few fans in here underwhelmed by the signing).

Everton was probably a good move for him, but was it a mistake selling him?

When the alternative is playing Scott in midfield….

Semper Fudge · Feb 3, 2024

elmo said:
When the alternative is playing Scott in midfield….

The answer is still no. McTominay is a better player.

elmo · Feb 3, 2024

Semper Fudge said:
The answer is still no. McTominay is a better player.

Better goal scorer, definitely not a better player. He’s a complete liability in midfield and ETH’s insistence of playing him for his goal threat is why we completely lose all control of midfield whenever he’s on the pitch.

andersj · Feb 3, 2024

More important, he is alot better than Amrabat. People kept talking about him being press resistant or not, but Garner basically never give away the ball in his own half. He dont commit stupid fouls the way several of our midfielders do either.

He is actually also a good passer of the ball.

AltiUn · Feb 3, 2024

Semper Fudge said:
The answer is still no. McTominay is a better player.

Garner’s quite clearly better than McTominay.

andersj · Feb 3, 2024

AltiUn said:
Garner’s quite clearly better than McTominay.

He is certainly a better DM. I think Garner would do a good job when Casemiro is out injured or need a rest.

Trequarista10 · Feb 3, 2024

andersj said:
More important, he is alot better than Amrabat. People kept talking about him being press resistant or not, but Garner basically never give away the ball in his own half. He dont commit stupid fouls the way several of our midfielders do either.

He is actually also a good passer of the ball.

His passing was what he was rated for when in the academy and during his loan spell at Forest.

For that reason alone I wasn't happy we let him go, after years of McFred. Thankfully we now have Mainoo, I wonder how much that played a part in the decision to let him go.

AltiUn · Feb 3, 2024

andersj said:
He is certainly a better DM. I think Garner would do a good job when Casemiro is out injured or need a rest.

McTominay is pretty good at what he does in his particular role that Ten Hag has found for him, but Garner’s the better footballer.

cyberman · Feb 3, 2024

A nothing player . Every one of our ridiculed players would stand out for relegation candidates. Hard to say he helps control games when Everton do nothing of the sort

andersj · Feb 3, 2024

Trequarista10 said:
For that reason alone I wasn't happy we let him go, after years of McFred. Thankfully we now have Mainoo, I wonder how much that played a part in the decision to let him go.

Maybe it did. But they was Mainoo played higher up the pitch against Wolves there was room for both of them.

andersj · Feb 3, 2024

cyberman said:
Hard to say he helps control games when Everton do nothing of the sort

Who said he did?

M Bison · Feb 3, 2024

I like him...

Under Fergie i think he'd be playing, him and McT, and we'd be winning the league.

Ace of Spades · Feb 3, 2024

He has been consistently good for them. He has settled in the team very well and has become a key player for them now.

They don't really play a very possession heavy game, but I think he could get a better move in the future.

In any case, selling him for 15m is a joke. Everton got a great deal and we did another awful transfer business.

Wrecking ralf · Feb 3, 2024

andersj said:
I think there was talk of a buy back-clause?

Pretty sure it was just a straight sale with no buy back clause.

cyberman · Feb 3, 2024

andersj said:
Who said he did?

Then I’m not sure what argument is here.
according to footy stats his passing accuracy is at 80 percent to Scott’s 83 from first glance.
So he’s a worse passer, doesn’t score or assist and nowhere near to Scott’s level but he’s better at what? The defensive stats are negligible this season and Scott plays further forward so doesn’t apply to him as much as it would to Garner.
if you want less goals, less assists, less offensive output and less composure through the middle then I guess he comes out on top

SambaBoy · Feb 4, 2024

I think he could have been a decent back-up player for us based on what I've seen. Feel he's missing something to really start for a team with CL aspirations. Yes, he's better than McT and Amrabat but that doesn't automatically mean we should sign players who fit this criteria.

In saying that he's 22, and still developing, if he continues on this trajectory then maybe he can be good enough for a top top side. He's been one of Everton's best players this season, I was surprised by how quick his feet are when pressed, he's actually quite nimble and can dribble out a tight situation.

Wednesday at Stoke · Feb 4, 2024

Isn’t he playing right wing for Everton and mostly delivering on set pieces?

Wumminator · Feb 4, 2024

AltiUn said:
Garner’s quite clearly better than McTominay.

This confidence is absolutely mental to me.

McTominay is in a better side, contributing more and being consistently picked for a European side for about 7 years now.

Garner is playing his first season of proper football. He could be good if he progresses.

To act like McTominay is a joke is mental.

Gordon S · Feb 4, 2024

I think Scott is a bad fit for Eriks style of football. Quite sure he would look better under a different manager and team.

Garner was really good vs spurs, it was a tough game and i thought he was one of the better players for Everton. He is progressing nicely.

Utd heap · Feb 4, 2024

Wumminator said:
This confidence is absolutely mental to me.

McTominay is in a better side, contributing more and being consistently picked for a European side for about 7 years now.

Garner is playing his first season of proper football. He could be good if he progresses.

To act like McTominay is a joke is mental.

Some logical sense.

andersj · Feb 4, 2024

cyberman said:
Then I’m not sure what argument is here.
according to footy stats his passing accuracy is at 80 percent to Scott’s 83 from first glance.
So he’s a worse passer, doesn’t score or assist and nowhere near to Scott’s level but he’s better at what? The defensive stats are negligible this season and Scott plays further forward so doesn’t apply to him as much as it would to Garner.
if you want less goals, less assists, less offensive output and less composure through the middle then I guess he comes out on top

If you dont know the argument it would be wise to learn it before arguing against it. It is equally stupid to hold it against him that he dont controll the game for a team that dont play with a midfielder that controll the game?

Yesterday Garner completed the most passes of any Everton player on the pitch. In a team with an average completion rate of 68 %, Garner stood at 80 %. Twelve percent above their average. Considering how many of this touches and passes came in the final third or into the final third, that is a good stat.

While Garner moved the ball 8 yards forward with each pass. Gueye, with a slightly higher completion rate, only moved the ball 4,73 yards forward. The Man Utd midfielders might have higher completion rates, but they bare move the ball forward. A player like McT is at 4 yards forward per pass. Casemiro is at 5,68 per pass.

Garner also made 11 recoveries yesterday. Casemiro makes an average of 6 per 90 min this season. McT makes 4,5 per 90 min.

When I saw the game yesterday it struck me that few of our midfielders even had potential to do what he did yesterday.

Wednesday at Stoke said:
Isn’t he playing right wing for Everton and mostly delivering on set pieces?

Played a bit of both. Lately, mostly as one of two DMs.

andersj · Feb 4, 2024

Wumminator said:
This confidence is absolutely mental to me.

McTominay is in a better side, contributing more and being consistently picked for a European side for about 7 years now.

Garner is playing his first season of proper football. He could be good if he progresses.

To act like McTominay is a joke is mental.

I agree with big parts of this. But I do think McT and Garner would complement eachother well.

Marwood · Feb 4, 2024

Wumminator said:
This confidence is absolutely mental to me.

McTominay is in a better side, contributing more and being consistently picked for a European side for about 7 years now.

Garner is playing his first season of proper football. He could be good if he progresses.

To act like McTominay is a joke is mental.

When you've watched both from U21 level its clear who is the better player. It's not even debateable.

The difference is McTominay got a chance at United. Garner didn't.

Wumminator · Feb 4, 2024

Marwood said:
When you've watched both from U21 level its clear who is the better player. It's not even debateable.

The difference is McTominay got a chance at United. Garner didn't.

It is massively debatable. Obviously McTominay has shown a lot more so far.

Wednesday at Stoke · Feb 4, 2024

Worth remembering that McTominay is our leading scorer in the league.

Gordon Godot · Feb 4, 2024

Wumminator said:
It is massively debatable. Obviously McTominay has shown a lot more so far.

I dont think either are good enough. We could probably have got more selling McT, Garner is a solid PM player but that's really it. having one as a squad player is fine, technically I would have preferred Garner but McT has at least a good goal record.

Marwood · Feb 4, 2024

Wumminator said:
It is massively debatable. Obviously McTominay has shown a lot more so far.

Well he's older and played more games. But that's not the question. It's who is better at football.

top1whoisman · Feb 4, 2024

Marwood said:
When you've watched both from U21 level its clear who is the better player. It's not even debateable.

The difference is McTominay got a chance at United. Garner didn't.

Whether someone is better at U21 level isn’t proof that they are better at first team level. Some show more talent in the academy while some take huge steps when included in the first team set up.

Not saying that Garner is definitely worse or that he shouldn’t have gotten a proper chance, just pointing out flaws in your logic.

There’s also a difference in pure talent and how one applies his skill set in first team football.

flappyjay · Feb 4, 2024

Wumminator said:
This confidence is absolutely mental to me.

McTominay is in a better side, contributing more and being consistently picked for a European side for about 7 years now.

Garner is playing his first season of proper football. He could be good if he progresses.

To act like McTominay is a joke is mental.

You would think the impact Andrea's and Elanga are having on the other teams would be proof of levels.

Marwood · Feb 4, 2024

top1whoisman said:
Whether someone is better at U21 level isn’t proof that they are better at first team level. Some show more talent in the academy while some take huge steps when included in the first team set up.

Not saying that Garner is definitely worse or that he shouldn’t have gotten a proper chance, just pointing out flaws in your logic.

I didn't argue it was all based on U21 level.

I said when you've watched from U21 i.e. their whole career from youth to date.

Mickeza · Feb 4, 2024

If it wasn’t for the fact Garner used to play here not a single person on this forum would be calling for us to sign him. Players can be good premier league footballers without being good enough for Manchester United.

DWelbz19 · Feb 4, 2024

McTominay is one of my least favourite players we’ve had in a long time but definitively calling Garner a better player is bonkers.

Garner will be lucky if he gets to McTominay’s current peak level (European football, national team key player, top scorer etc.) - let alone tops it.

Just because McTominay hides from a football in the buildup, whilst Garner was quite good at pinging it and on dead balls when he was playing for our youth teams doesn’t make him a better player.

Utd heap · Feb 4, 2024

DWelbz19 said:
McTominay is one of my least favourite players we’ve had in a long time but definitively calling Garner a better player is bonkers.

Garner will be lucky if he gets to McTominay’s current peak level (European football, national team key player, top scorer etc.) - let alone tops it.

Just because McTominay hides from a football in the buildup, whilst Garner was quite good at pinging it and on dead balls when he was playing for our youth teams doesn’t make him a better player.

Sorry mate a few lads in here have already explained there is not actually even a debate.

Marwood · Feb 4, 2024

DWelbz19 said:
McTominay is one of my least favourite players we’ve had in a long time but definitively calling Garner a better player is bonkers.

Garner will be lucky if he gets to McTominay’s current peak level (European football, national team key player, top scorer etc.) - let alone tops it.

Just because McTominay hides from a football in the buildup, whilst Garner was quite good at pinging it and on dead balls when he was playing for our youth teams doesn’t make him a better player.

Using that logic McTominay is a better player than someone like James Maddison right?

Maddison isn't a key player for his national team, never played Champions League like McTominay, generally has played at a lower club level.

Pogue Mahone · Feb 4, 2024

Marwood said:
When you've watched both from U21 level its clear who is the better player. It's not even debateable.

The difference is McTominay got a chance at United. Garner didn't.

In terms of their value as PL players, McTominay’s ability to get a goal puts him a level above, for all his obvious flaws. Midfielders who regularly get on the scoresheet are rare and extremely highly valued.

Wumminator · Feb 4, 2024

Marwood said:
Using that logic McTominay is a better player than someone like James Maddison right?

Again - I don’t want to be antagonistic, but about two years ago you claimed Galbraith, Levitt and Garner were all superior players to McTominay. He had been given his chance because he was “big”.

One of them plays in a midtable league one club. One got relegated from the Scottish PL.

Do these players have attributes that you’d associate with “good footballer”? Yes. They look better at what some consider the fundamentals. They receive a pass and give it etc etc.

But that is not all that football is. McTominay has multiple winning goals this year and has been a mainstay for the team for hundreds of appearances. He’s the captain of his national side.

Garner could have a great career and “looks” tidier than Scott. He’s not as effective.

DWelbz19 · Feb 4, 2024

Marwood said:
Using that logic McTominay is a better player than someone like James Maddison right?

See Wumminator’s post above for a more comprehensive response, but on this quip, no — James Maddison has made the NT this season and will go to the Euros (fitness permitting), has played European football, and is Spurs top assister. Good effort, mind. Mountain of difference between Maddison and Garner too, but you knew that.

Pogue Mahone said:
In terms of their value as PL players, McTominay’s ability to get a goal puts him a level above, for all his obvious flaws. Midfielders who regularly get on the scoresheet are rare and extremely highly valued.

Put the goals he’s able to offer a team and his general professionalism, size, and availability on offer and most midtable/lower table sides would bite their hands off for him. Some of our fans are blinded by the expectations at the very top of the PL.

Plenty of our players “not good enough” would still be more than comfortably good PL players. Look at Andreas and Elanga who have been mentioned who didn’t really show anywhere near what McTominay has at the top level.

SilentWitness · Feb 4, 2024

DWelbz19 said:
McTominay is one of my least favourite players we’ve had in a long time but definitively calling Garner a better player is bonkers.

Garner will be lucky if he gets to McTominay’s current peak level (European football, national team key player, top scorer etc.) - let alone tops it.

Just because McTominay hides from a football in the buildup, whilst Garner was quite good at pinging it and on dead balls when he was playing for our youth teams doesn’t make him a better player.

That argument falls down to a bit of luck in terms of how McT got into the United side/poor midfield recruitment meaning he still gets in it and also England vs Scotland is a pretty big gulf in class unfortunately for us. They also play completely different roles in club and international football. Garner for example was a RB during the U21 championship win and isn't a goalscoring type midfielder, rather one that contributes in other facets to the team such as build up and control of the midfield. McT is that goalscoring midfielding type.

For what it's worth, I think they'd both start for us in different roles, and there aren't many players who could do the Doucoure job but I think McTominay is one of them, he's a very specific type of player that can be incredibly useful but it definitely has its limits. In the same respect, I think the type of midfielder Garner is has a much higher limit but Garner himself probably is only good enough to be a CL squad player/EL starter level.

All in all, I think they're similar levels but in different respects. They're hard to compare because they're very different in terms of play style.

James Garner - Player Watch

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