Should players with defibs be allowed to play Premier League or should we ban them like Serie A?

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
After seeing the video of Tom Lockyer showing his recently installed defib, I couldn't help but think he should not be allowed to compete in the PL.


Given he has collapsed twice now and was cleared by the club's medical staff to play again, I think we have to have a rule, similar to Serie A that the players with defibs cannot play in the league. No one wants to see young men dying on the pitch surrounded by advertisements for betting companies and tires.

I feel so much for him and his recounting of the ordeal was truly the stuff of nightmares. Given my concerns around health anxiety, blood pressure, and my post-COVID issues with my heart it's probably because it personally hits home so much that I feel this way. I must also confess that I feel anxious every time I see Eriksen go down and I am aware enough that this is my anxiety playing havoc with me.

No one knows why this is happening and does seem to be more common nowadays. I would think it has to do with over-exertion and strain, poor screening for heart health, and perhaps the effects of over-caffeination and nicotine addiction in players, both stimulants that affect the heart, combined with a mental playing schedule and a game pace which is all about maximum number of sprints, recovery sprints in 90 mins.

Guys, just a warning, no stupid, tin-foil hat conspiracy theories, please. I will ask for the mods to remove such posts so this doesn't descend into some swamp of conjecture and thread hijacking.
 

Bobade

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
1,013
It feels wrong, but I literally know nothing about what the risks are.
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
58,077
Location
Canada
If the doctors clear him to play then there is no reason why not. Who are we to say anything different?
 

AltiUn

likes playing with swords after fantasies
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
23,642
The fact he's collapsed more than once already should've been his sign to pack it in. For what it's worth, I think Eriksen should've packed it in too, even if he's not had a repeat incident yet. Football is lucrative but it's not worth your life.
 

Lynty

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Messages
3,094
A defib wouldn’t stop me playing football.

As long as the players are aware of the risks they’re taking, can’t see the issue.

It’s more important to find the root causes of so many heart issues and change it. Whether that’s modern training methods, off-season PEDs or in the highly unlikely scenario all these players have similar pre-existing heart conditions, why isn’t it picked up until they collapse.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,608
Supports
Everton
As shite as it is, no. It's not just the safety of the player with the defib but the impact on the fans and other players. It would feck me up to be playing and see my teammate keel over.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
Lynty said:
A defib wouldn’t stop me playing football.

As long as the players are aware of the risks they’re taking, can’t see the issue.

It’s more important to find the root causes of so many heart issues and change it. Whether that’s modern training methods, off-season PEDs or in the highly unlikely scenario all these players have similar pre-existing heart conditions, why isn’t it picked up until they collapse.
Click to expand...
I think a person being willing to die isn't enough of a reason to allow it and the welfare of the players is paramount, regardless whether they're OK with the risks.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
SilentWitness said:
As shite as it is, no. It's not just the safety of the player with the defib but the impact on the fans and other players. It would feck me up to be playing and see my teammate keel over.
Click to expand...
Precisely, I don't think it's worth it. It's horrific and I dunno, maybe as I've gotten older, I find myself more and more unable to watch grim video clips of injuries etc, just makes me wince.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
30,239
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
People with defibs do play sport at the highest level and have done for a few years now without issue. What sparked the question?

EDIT: Unless I should have read the thread first. Who keeled over?
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,477
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
AltiUn said:
The fact he's collapsed more than once already should've been his sign to pack it in. For what it's worth, I think Eriksen should've packed it in too, even if he's not had a repeat incident yet. Football is lucrative but it's not worth your life.
Click to expand...
That's not for you to determine

For some, ball is life
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,251
Is there not something about these that it's actually better for people with already high level of fitness to continue to push themselves?

Surely one of the worst things you could do is become less active.
 

Maluco

Last Man Standing 3 champion 2019/20
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
5,925
I don’t think we can, or should, take away someone’s agency because we feel “uncomfortable”

I am sure many medical and scientific professionals have been involved in these decisions. I am also sure the player is aware of the risks.

If he feels confident with the defib and this is everything he has worked towards since he was a young boy, you can’t take that decision away from him because we don’t like watching it.

We spend so many hours in life clinging on to what we can’t ultimately control. Life will slip away from all of us, whether it’s on a football pitch or lying on the bed scrolling TikTok.

The best therapy sometimes for anxiety such as this is to let go and try and stop controlling the uncontrollable, as hard as that is.
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
7,659
The fact it’s happened twice to him I think he’s stupid to get back out onto the pitch again, and he should be making a decision to put his family first.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
Maluco said:
I don’t think we can, or should, take away someone’s agency because we feel “uncomfortable”

I am sure many medical and scientific professionals have been involved in these decisions. I am also sure the player is aware of the risks.

If he feels confident with the defib and this is everything he has worked towards since he was a young boy, you can’t take that decision away from him because we don’t like watching it.

We spend so many hours in life clinging on to what we can’t ultimately control. Life will slip away from all of us, whether it’s on a football pitch or lying on the bed scrolling TikTok.

The best therapy sometimes for anxiety such as this is to let go and try and stop controlling the uncontrollable, as hard as that is.
Click to expand...
We do this all the time in society.
 

Pronewbie

Peep
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
6,688
Location
In front of My Computer
If playing with a defib is cleared by a large enough segment of medical professionals who aren't corrupt or incentivised to peddle "medical solutions", then why not?

The flipside of having such a ban would only encourage players with serious heart conditions to hide them and play without a defib.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,608
Supports
Everton
Pronewbie said:
If playing with a defib is cleared by a large enough segment of medical professionals who aren't corrupt or incentivised to peddle "medical solutions", then why not?

The flipside of having such a ban would only encourage players with serious heart conditions to hide them and play without a defib.
Click to expand...
That would be quite hard to hide. Fairly impossible in the sport now.
 

Rodgerzzz

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
220
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
No one wants to see young men dying on the pitch surrounded by advertisements for betting companies and tires.
Click to expand...
This is such a strangely profound & poetic sentence for the modern consumer driven world, add some commentators on the top cutting to an ad break for Heineken and it's got the air of a scene from a dystopian movie

I think you're right to some degree on the defib issue, but as others have pointed out it's not for unqualified people to comment from a health perspective. I'm not sure it's fair for thousands of people to witness stuff like this when in a controlled environment, although obviously similar things can happen in everyday life. But then is it fair to ban someone medically cleared to play & deny them their income stream?

It's quite scary how normalized this is becoming as well, it's not as shocking anymore. I remember the Fabrice Muamba incident being a big deal, then the Christian Eriksen one (although more likely because it was at the world cup it was a huge deal), and there's plenty of other examples in between with much worse outcomes. But the shock factor feels like it's not there, almost as if it's on the verge of becoming an accepted part of what footballers have to put their bodies through.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dargonk

DRJosh

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
2,938
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Supports
United minus the Glazers
Josep Dowling said:
The fact it’s happened twice to him I think he’s stupid to get back out onto the pitch again, and he should be making a decision to put his family first.
Click to expand...
Your comment may seem judgemental and presumptuous to some but as a father to 2 boys now playing at academy level, I wholeheartedly agree. Football is secondary when it comes to health and family.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
Rodgerzzz said:
This is such a strangely profound & poetic sentence for the modern consumer driven world, add some commentators on the top cutting to an ad break for Heineken and it's got the air of a scene from a dystopian movie

I think you're right to some degree on the defib issue, but as others have pointed out it's not for unqualified people to comment from a health perspective. I'm not sure it's fair for thousands of people to witness stuff like this when in a controlled environment, although obviously similar things can happen in everyday life. But then is it fair to ban someone medically cleared to play & deny them their income stream?

It's quite scary how normalized this is becoming as well, it's not as shocking anymore. I remember the Fabrice Muamba incident being a big deal, then the Christian Eriksen one (although more likely because it was at the world cup it was a huge deal), and there's plenty of other examples in between with much worse outcomes. But the shock factor feels like it's not there, almost as if it's on the verge of becoming an accepted part of what footballers have to put their bodies through.
Click to expand...
Something isn't right and it is an issue with the strain and lack of recovery.

I agree, it is a dystopian thought and a makes me feel kinda down.
 

Krny

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 2, 2022
Messages
220
Location
Belfast
Supports
Celtic Football Club
Would rather he was doing it in a top league with the most on standby medical staff at hand than in some less wealthy league less equipped to deal with any serious incidents. He's going to want to play so better he's "safer" relatively.
 

SAFMUTD

New Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
11,787
My logic says it a definite risk for them to play, but I'm not informed enough to make an opinion, I guess if doctors cleared them it must mean they're within the right parameters right?
 

Reapersoul20

Can Anderson score? No.
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
12,153
Location
Jog on
People who aren't equipped with the requisite medical knowledge in these situation should really not comment on it.

Sometimes cardiac arrests are a one-off thing. Sometimes there's underlying issues. There's a lot we don't know. It's unfair for us, as gowls on the internet, to make calls about a young mans future and livelihood.
 

Scarlett Dracarys

( . Y . )
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
33,254
Location
New York
If he's cleared by medical professionals and it's not affecting his performance I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to play. The defibrillator was installed as a safety precaution to prevent death so he should be fine.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
Reapersoul20 said:
People who aren't equipped with the requisite medical knowledge in these situation should really not comment on it.

Sometimes cardiac arrests are a one-off thing. Sometimes there's underlying issues. There's a lot we don't know. It's unfair for us, as gowls on the internet, to make calls about a young mans future and livelihood.
Click to expand...
That's odd, I take it you don't comment on the NHS/Healthcare of your country? It's an opinion and we are allowed to have these, given this is a "football forum".

Secondly, Serie A have a policy that is different to ours, do their medical teams have too small a knowledge?
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
58,077
Location
Canada
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
That's odd, I take it you don't comment on the NHS/Healthcare of your country? It's an opinion and we are allowed to have these, given this is a "football forum".

Secondly, Serie A have a policy that is different to ours, do their medical teams have too small a knowledge?
Click to expand...
Just because people comment on it without knowledge doesn't mean they should be commenting on it. An uneducated opinion about medical issues is entirely worthless and the discussion on a football forum will be "I dunno, he might die, seems like a bad idea" when in reality they know nothing about it?
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
bosnian_red said:
Just because people comment on it without knowledge doesn't mean they should be commenting on it. An uneducated opinion about medical issues is entirely worthless and the discussion on a football forum will be "I dunno, he might die, seems like a bad idea" when in reality they know nothing about it?
Click to expand...
Do you play professional football?
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
58,077
Location
Canada
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Do you play professional football?
Click to expand...
No. But I've watched football my whole life and have played football at some level my whole life. So I can say "an opinion", on a football forum, with some backing.

I'm not a physician (though my brother and father in law is). Actually my in law is a cardiologist. So I could probably get a worthwhile opinion on this topic by a simple convo.

Let me clarify. You're allowed to give your opinion even if it's uneducated. It's just a pointless discussion as it's probably entirely made up of completely uneducated comments on the topic. So it's a waste of time.
 

Forest Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2022
Messages
1,050
Supports
Nottingham Forest
By default I’m generally against banning stuff. Surly this is a decision for his medical team, his club and Lockyer himself (Probably in that order). They will all be aware of the physical demands of 90+mins of Prem football and what the risks are. Lockyer also comes across as an intelligent bloke with a family so I’m pretty sure he would make the correct and responsible decision.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,677
bosnian_red said:
No. But I've watched football my whole life and have played football at some level my whole life. So I can say "an opinion", on a football forum, with some backing.

I'm not a physician (though my brother and father in law is). Actually my in law is a cardiologist. So I could probably get a worthwhile opinion on this topic by a simple convo.
Click to expand...
Cool, I've had two members of my family have heart attacks, who I knew my whole life.

I've also watched football my whole life.

So I can say "opinion" on a football forum about a player playing with a device that restarts his heart should a third cardiac issue.

Instead of deriding people talking, feel free to ask you in law their opinion and share so we can all learn etc.
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
58,077
Location
Canada
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Cool, I've had two members of my family have heart attacks, who I knew my whole life.

I've also watched football my whole life.

So I can say "opinion" on a football forum about a player playing with a device that restarts his heart should a third cardiac issue.

Instead of deriding people talking, feel free to ask you in law their opinion and share so we can all learn etc.
Click to expand...
I edited my post above to clarify. You're allowed to state your opinion, it's just a "pointless opinion" if you aren't educated in that topic like physicians are. Someone in your family having heart issues doesn't mean you know anything about the medical device and how it works on people and what risks it poses while playing football, and their own individual situation.

No 2 cases are going to be the same. An outside cardiologist can't give much on this either without examining the case themselves, and knowing the full details. If the physician on that specific case says "it's fine", then it's fine. That's it. They are the most qualified to make that call, they are experts in it. Folk who are not doctors/physicians or even one step further, cardiologists, have pretty much nothing to provide of value in this discussion. So unless there's a cardiologist on this forum.... It's a pointless discussion filled with uneducated opinions about a specific health issue that we don't know the full details of. So a waste of time. Sorry to be blunt. But medical talk should be left to the experts, and forgive me if you are a cardiologist, in which case go for it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.