Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

- "Pallywood" movie scenes. No need for verification this is obvious entirely accurate.

"Pallywood" typically refers to Palestinians acting, or otherwise staging or faking incidents, in an effort to make themselves look like victims.

What incidents do you have in mind?
 


Look at the way he answers, this guy doesn't even believe in his spins anymore and he can't hide it.
 
I don't know why is regurgitating, if there is rape, is rape, no matter who does it. And if it is the UN representative, at least is a bit more reliable.

I don't find out of this word that in October 7th there was raping. feck, they were killing and kidnapping innocent people, I don't think they draw any line.

But nothing, not even rape, warrants what is happening now

Agree with this. Don't really see the point in disputing that it most likely happened and I don't see the point in questioning the UN representative's credibility here either, as it probably would have an opposite effect in that it gives staunch Israel defenders more fuel to deflect from the current situation. But it's all minor details now relative to what has happened after October 7th.
 
So if UNWRA say IDF did something bad in Gaza then its gospel. But the UN say Israeli women were raped then its false. Ok.
 
"Pallywood" typically refers to Palestinians acting, or otherwise staging or faking incidents, in an effort to make themselves look like victims.

What incidents do you have in mind?

Not seen the post but anyone using "Pallywood" unironically isn't worth listening to or arguing with.
 


"You will not starve": join the aid convoy for the residents of Gaza! The government does not allow sufficient basic humanitarian aid to enter the hungry millions in Gaza, and when a little aid does enter, battalions of settlers block it. We are not standing by anymore. This coming Thursday we are all mobilizing to demand an end to starvation in Gaza.

Good gesture, let's see whether they would be stopped by the people organized by a terrorist wanted by the FBI.
 
So if UNWRA say IDF did something bad in Gaza then its gospel. But the UN say Israeli women were raped then its false. Ok.
You don't see the parallels with the way you disregard all UN reports? UN experts condemn intentional starvation of civilians by Israel, warn of famine, condemn massacres committed by Israel, and you say they can't be trusted. But now a UN report says something that aligns with what Israeli institutions are saying and suddenly to you contradicting the word of the UN is shocking? At least pretend to be consistent.
 
You don't see the parallels with the way you disregard all UN reports? UN experts condemn intentional starvation of civilians by Israel, warn of famine, condemn massacres committed by Israel, and you say they can't be trusted. But now a UN report says something that aligns with what Israeli institutions are saying and suddenly to you contradicting the word of the UN is shocking? At least pretend to be consistent.

I think to a certain extent we are all guilty of that (as in selective perception of facts). For me, I find it increasingly difficult what and whom to believe with regard to this conflict.
 
I think to a certain extent we are all guilty of that (as in selective perception of facts). For me, I find it increasingly difficult what and whom to believe with regard to this conflict.


I agree.It is impossible to know who is telling the truth because for every claim made by one side, you have a counter claim made by the other. Social media is awash with propaganda (from both sides).
 
I think to a certain extent we are all guilty of that (as in selective perception of facts). For me, I find it increasingly difficult what and whom to believe with regard to this conflict.
Selective perception of facts is one thing and I'm sure the best of us struggle to be perfectly objective in a highly emotional context.

It is entirely another thing, that the poster is guilty of, to disregard and demonise volumes of UN reports of the most harrowing crimes against humanity, and then feigning indignation that others would have the audacity to dismiss a report by the same institution in this instance. He has done what he's pretending to be outraged about countless times.
 
Selective perception of facts is one thing and I'm sure the best of us struggle to be perfectly objective in a highly emotional context.

It is entirely another thing, that the poster is guilty of, to disregard and demonise volumes of UN reports of the most harrowing crimes against humanity, and then feigning indignation that others would have the audacity to dismiss a report by the same institution in this instance. He has done what he's pretending to be outraged about countless times.
He's a hypocrite, as most tend to be on the Israeli side. It's the only way they can support the regime with a straight face.
 
The US secretary of defence says 25,000 women and children have died, but we have people on RedCafe who still think “30,000 dead” is an exaggeration by the “Khamas-run Ministry of Health”.
 
The US secretary of defence says 25,000 women and children have died, but we have people on RedCafe who still think “30,000 dead” is an exaggeration by the “Khamas-run Ministry of Health”.

The 30000 number is actually an underestimate by at least a few thousands and is also used by the Israelis.
 
A couple, detailed threads on the UN report, which go line by line, on what it actually states:



 
People post Twitter links all day in here about what is happening in Gaza and their motives for posting them aren't questioned.

You refuse to answer then. Ok, here's how I see it. You'd like to downplay the idea that Gazans are starving. You'd like to imply that the Red Cross, Oxfam, Medecins Sans Frontieres, UNWRA, OCHA (this is not exhaustive) are all just pretending that famine is imminent and that actually Gazans are lying and living in a land of plenty.

Why not post other tweets from that esteemed account:

 
@gfactor86 and @Giggsy PO, How refreshing it is to find you both in agreement. I never thought I'd see the day.

Hold the line, guys.


The 30000 number is actually an underestimate by at least a few thousands and is also used by the Israelis.
Given the few thousands who are still under the rubble and another few who will die because of starvation, lack of appropriate medical treatment and overall terrible life conditions, I wouldn't be surprised if this war ends with over well 50,000 dead Palestinians. And that's not counting the permanently disabled people and a completely traumatized generation that will have to live with the horrors that have been inflicted upon them in the last four months.

There's been two new acronyms coined specifically for the Palestinians: WNSCF (Wounded Child with No Surviving Familiy) and CSTD (Chronic Stress Disorder).

But hey, self-defense.
 
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@gfactor86 and @Giggsy PO, How refreshing it is to find you both in agreement. I'd never thought I'd see the day.

Hold the line, guys.

Given the few thousands who are still under the rubble and another few who die and/or will die because of starvation, lack of appropriate medical treatment and overall terrible life conditions, I wouldn't be surprised if this war ends with over well 50,000 dead Palestinians. And that's not counting the permanently disabled people and a completely traumatized generation who'll have to live with the horror that's been inflicted upon them in the last four months.

There's been two new acronyms coined specifically for the Palestinians: WNSCF (Wounded Child with No Surviving Familiy) and CSTD (Chronic Stress Disorder). That leaves a population utterly traumatized for generations.

I've had bombs exploding, bullets flying and people dying around me. Occasionally. Twenty-five years later and despite my surroundings being much safer, I still look over my shoulder and am highly nervous when in crowded areas or hearing firecrackers. Let alone the nightmares. That's something that will never leave me. I can't even begin to imagine what the Gazan population has endured in the last four months and what scars it will leave behind.

But hey, self-defense.

Yeah and the hundreds of thousands of displaced Israelis that will live in fear of Hamas terrorists bursting into their homes in the night to rape and burn them alive.
 
@gfactor86 and @Giggsy PO, How refreshing it is to find you both in agreement. I'd never thought I'd see the day.

Hold the line, guys.

Given the few thousands who are still under the rubble and another few who will die because of starvation, lack of appropriate medical treatment and overall terrible life conditions, I wouldn't be surprised if this war ends with over well 50,000 dead Palestinians. And that's not counting the permanently disabled people and a completely traumatized generation who'll have to live with the horror that's been inflicted upon them in the last four months.

There's been two new acronyms coined specifically for the Palestinians: WNSCF (Wounded Child with No Surviving Familiy) and CSTD (Chronic Stress Disorder). That leaves a population utterly traumatized for generations.

I've had bombs exploding, bullets flying and people dying around me. Occasionally. Twenty-five years later and despite my surroundings being much safer, I still look over my shoulder and am highly nervous when in crowded areas or hearing firecrackers. Let alone the nightmares. That's something that will never leave me. I can't even begin to imagine what the Gazan population has endured in the last four months and what scars it will leave behind.

But hey, self-defense.
It's not even the last 5 months that's just the issue. If you were a child born in 2009, you would have lived through about 6 of these by now. Imagining you survived them all - you'd be 15 years old with about 6 wars behind you, with each one worst than the last...and you're still expected to suffer in silence. It's a joke.
 
Yeah and the hundreds of thousands of displaced Israelis that will live in fear of Hamas terrorists bursting into their homes in the night to rape and burn them alive.
And thousands of people who cannot return to their homes on the northern border because of Hezbollah.

edit: Basically add every single person living in Israel. They can go sleep and hope to wake up just because of Iron Dome.
 
Yep.



Sexual assaults likely have happened but as long as it's only investigated by organizations like ZAKA, people have the right to doubt it. Also, interestingly, the report mentions sexual violence against men and women in the West Bank not even Gaza which most likely won't be mentioned in the media. If people think this is anything but genocidal propaganda that recycles the same thing to paint certain narratives, they aren't paying attention.


Just to take issue with the tweet you posted.

Tweet says: "She has no investigative powers or abilities"
Report says [pg7 (24)]:
"The mission team was led by the SRSG-SVC with the support of a technical team comprised of nine staff members with relevant expertise drawn from the United Nations system. The technical team included a principal human rights officer that acted as its head; a police expert in criminal investigation; a judicial affairs officer; two sexual and gender-based violence investigators skilled in the safe and ethical interviewing of survivors/victims and witnesses of sexual violence crimes; a forensic pathologist; a digital and open-source information analyst; and two political affairs officers"
Seems like they have investigative abilities.

Tweet implies that because the team had no investigative mandate it doesn't have the power to verify. This is untrue, and the difference is explained in the report:
[Pg8 (25)]:
"The mandate of the SRSG-SVC encompasses the gathering, analysis, and verification of existing, as well as independently received information on incidents and patterns of conflict related sexual violence. The mission was not intended to be, and is not a substitute for, an investigation by relevant United Nations entities mandated for that purpose, nor is it a replacement for criminal investigations and proceedings subject to due process of law."

The account you quoted wants to imply that Pramila Patten is somehow corrupt or underhand; she is described as attempting to "bury", she "finally admits", the report itself merits "scare quotes". The reality is that the report is very upfront about the difficulties it faced, the scope of its remit and the limitations of its conclusions.

It doesn't strike me as particularly useful only to laud those UN investigations and conclusions that point to Israeli culpability. We know that what happened on October 7th was monstrous in its own right and the report does a good job of explaining why it finds reasonable grounds to believe sexual violence took place. It makes no claims, nor presents any conclusions beyond its self stated, limited remit.
 
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This is the problem with this thread and social media in general. Israel is treated to a completely different standard.

- Israeli woman says she has been raped. You're a liar! Prove it!
- IDF finds Hamas tunnels. You're a liar! Prove it!
- "Flour Massacre" caused by stampede. You're a liar! Prove it!
- Hamas rocket hit the Al Ahli hospital. You're a liar! Prove it!
- UN says Israeli woman likely raped on 10/7. Lies! ISRAELI PROPAGANDA!

Hamas Ministry of Health...

- 30,000 dead. No need for verification this is obvious entirely accurate.
- "Pallywood" movie scenes. No need for verification this is obvious entirely accurate.


I am not trying to defend Israel here. I am just saying that there is a blatant double standard where everything from the Palestinian/Hamas side is treated as "the gospel", while anything from Israel is immediately thrown out as lies and Israeli propaganda.

Is there not just the smallest possibility that Hamas would "bake" their numbers to ensure maximum condemnation of Israel and to further their own cause and interests? Is it not a bit curious that they are so sure 30,000 people have been killed, but not so sure about how many Israeli hostages are alive?

Hamas, has consistently said the truth with their dead numbers in other occasions. Verified by Israel and UN. Why lie now?

In the other hand, the IDF had been lying consistently.

Is a matter of trust and as much one is a terrorist group, didn't lie in the past on numbers (I am not saying anything else) and the other, as much as is a supposedly democratic organization, had been lying through its teeth

Sure you might understand that
 


It feels like we're getting one of those every few hours now.


The more it goes, the more I hate Biden. He was a demented old man and I know he is from the establishment and is aligned with the geopolitics theatre. If he would just shut up, at least is what he would look like. But this tweets and the media saying that is very mad at netanyahu for the situation in gaza and blah blah....While approving military aid, blocking UN resolutions, etc its beyonf disgusting. Is a piece of shit
 
Yeah and the hundreds of thousands of displaced Israelis that will live in fear of Hamas terrorists bursting into their homes in the night to rape and burn them alive.

You mean like...Nakba? or modern life west bank?

Shame on you talking about displacement, killing and rape when e see what is happening to 2 million people
 
30,000 deaths later this was their turning point?



Because is not a turning point. Is the same Biden whitewash narrative that US is very mad at Israel while fully supporting them
 
Just to take issue with the tweet you posted.

Tweet says: "She has no investigative powers or abilities"

Report says [pg7 (24)]:​

Seems like they have investigative abilities.

Tweet implies that because the team had no investigative mandate it doesn't have the power to verify. This is untrue, and the difference is explained in the report:

[Pg8 (25)]: "​

The account you quoted wants to imply that Pramila Patten is somehow corrupt or underhand; she is described as attempting to "bury", she "finally admits", the report itself merits "scare quotes". The reality is that the report is very upfront about the difficulties it faced, the scope of its remit and the limitations of its conclusions.

It doesn't strike me as particularly useful only to laud those UN investigations and conclusions that point to Israeli culpability. We know that what happened on October 7th was monstrous in its own right and the report does a good job of explaining why it finds reasonable grounds to believe sexual violence took place. It makes no claims, nor presents any conclusions beyond its self stated, limited remit.

It doesn't imply, it's stated in the report "The mission wasn't investigative". They can also have all the abilities but what's their use when Israel puts huge obstacles for them to work and they are mostly dependent on what is presented to them? They don't have much if any power inside Israel, as the report indicates.

I think the report itself isn't a problem and it debunks several fabrications used and made by the likes of the NYT. However IMO, they should have cast more doubt over their inclusions.

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The bigger problem is it's used -despite her having to state she's against that- as a justification to continue the violence and how the media mostly ignore the findings about sexual violence toward Palestinians which has now been mentioned in two different UN reports.