When the information is not clear always vote no.
Referendum in Ireland today
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
At least with the Brexit referendum, people understood what they were voting for eh?
The church and its attitude to women is not some abstract. It was horrific at times.
This is a country that made marital rape illegal as recently as 1990.
The church made many unmarried mother's life hell. It's not just an academic viewpoint.
That makes it worse
It was horrific for some is what I’m saying I suppose, but it wasn’t for the majority. That’s not to excuse what happened to that minority because I’m in agreement with you there.
I just think there’s this tendency for some people nowadays to engage in a kind of gaslighting when it comes to the past.
Yeah and the majority are still hetero married couples, doesn't mean it's OK to stack it up against those who aren't.
Our history is shameful, that's not gaslighting. Do you mind me adking how old you are?
Would you like a list of some of the highlights?
A cock up from the government in every single way. Ballsed up the wording. Never communicated the message to people in a meaningful way. Wasted millions on it. Never talked about the implications of it because they didn't know what they would be.
A complete and total waste of time and money.
Not saying that changing the wording is a complete and total waste of time and money; it's a step forward - but if you're going to half-arse it this much then don't bother.
Eamonn Ryan is a gowl. I can't stand any political party in this country. Not one. Even individually, they are all cnuts.
A complete and total waste of time and money.
Not saying that changing the wording is a complete and total waste of time and money; it's a step forward - but if you're going to half-arse it this much then don't bother.
Eamonn Ryan is a gowl. I can't stand any political party in this country. Not one. Even individually, they are all cnuts.
Perhaps my favourite Irish insult.
I didn’t say it was. The mention of ‘durable relationships’ is the culprit in this instance.
But that sort of blanket statement is a form of gaslighting.
I didnt even bother which makes this the first vote I've missed since I registered several years ago for the abortion vote. I don't mind who won to be honest.
A lot of people seem to struggle to explain exactly how this matters and what the practical implications are. My Dad keeps blaming this referendum on LGBT people and my Mam is enraged that the word "mother" is being "removed". I don't think either has given any practical consequence.
What exactly is the gaslighting here?
That's nonsense. How many examples would you need to acknowledge our shameful history. We're literally world famous for it.
The sanctity of the church and of marriage within the state makes mother a loaded word. It's not about actions but it's a status. As an unmarried father in the courts trying to protect kids from a violent mother I felt the sharp end of the practical consequences of the status quo.
We’re world famous for our shameful history?
At risk of fulfilling Godwin’s Law…the only country that sort of blanket statement really gets applied to is Germany.
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You're on a wind up here surely?
The negative role of the church within Irish society is quite well known. Not to you bizarrely.
I’m well aware of the negative aspects of the church within Irish society. I’m just pulling you up on your non-specific blanket statements.
No problem then. I’m in agreement with you on those aspects.
They're quite widespread and widely known, just so you know.
Gaslighting indeed. I hate internet buzzwords. You'd be shouting narcissist next.
I do know.
You’ve used a few of those internet buzzwords and phrases in the two pages of the thread. (And I’m not trying to gaslight there you btw
)I live to serve.
I think this is what it boiled down to, people just didn't know or understand what they were voting for. It was just too vague with wording that even Mehole couldn't explain when properly when quizzed about it.
I do know.
You’ve used a few of those internet buzzwords and phrases in the two pages of the thread. (And I’m not trying to gaslight there you btw
I live to serve.
Here's some background to the blanket statement. If too abstract I can get some anecdotal events to show the material effects.
The church role in marital rape.
https://www.drcc.ie/news-resources/irish-times-opinion-editorial-noeline-blackwell/
How the Catholic church shaped the constitutionto define women.
https://theconversation.com/irish-r...titution-to-define-the-status-of-women-222231
A history of repression and misogyny.
https://www.socialistparty.ie/2018/05/women-church-irish-state-history-misogyny-repression/
Women's Rights halted in the 20's
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20348154.html
The natural law and Catholic teachings in Ireland
https://journals.openedition.org/etudesirlandaises/3913
Catholic Nationalism and Feminism in 20th century Ireland.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECDkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0kPzW0aHFJTGVSd65qKxMh
The Oppression of Women in Ireland
https://rupture.ie/articles/the-oppression-of-women-in-ireland
I voted No No.
Spoke to many women from 18 to 60.
They all said no.
Plus anything that this weasel bastard Varadkar brings forward has an angle somewhere.
Spoke to many women from 18 to 60.
They all said no.
Plus anything that this weasel bastard Varadkar brings forward has an angle somewhere.
You’ve used a few of those internet buzzwords and phrases in the two pages of the thread. (And I’m not trying to gaslight there you btw
Do give examples and I will explain the use of those words to you as well.
Cheers. As I said before I’m well aware of the negative aspects of the church in our country’s past but I’ll take a look at the links over the next couple of days when I have time.
Although I do notice a couple of the sources are the Socialist Party, and rupture.ie (with the tagline ecosocialist - feminist - marxist)…so I’m not exactly expecting an unbiased source of truth from those.
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Agree 100%
The government obviously fecked this up, no question about that.
I can't believe that nobody in the opposition opposed it. Mary Lou has even said that if no wins then she will run it again. Mental.
There honestly isn't a brain between them in the Dail
I can't believe that nobody in the opposition opposed it. Mary Lou has even said that if no wins then she will run it again. Mental.
There honestly isn't a brain between them in the Dail
A reminder for all governments that the public will kick you in the teeth if given the chance.
Nobody was clear what this would really change, what the implications would be and why it was worth the money, time and effort to run this referendum.
Especially when there is a housing crisis, homeless crisis and a healthcare crisis. This government is completely tone deaf and removed from the reality of the lives of everyday Irish people.
90% of the population don't give a damn about anything else when access to the basic fundamentals of life are a struggle to many, and we've seen that play out today.
It's so easy to despise literally every political party in Ireland, both as a collective and individually the politicians. They're all just different cheeks of the same arse. Varadker is the hole.
Nobody was clear what this would really change, what the implications would be and why it was worth the money, time and effort to run this referendum.
Especially when there is a housing crisis, homeless crisis and a healthcare crisis. This government is completely tone deaf and removed from the reality of the lives of everyday Irish people.
90% of the population don't give a damn about anything else when access to the basic fundamentals of life are a struggle to many, and we've seen that play out today.
It's so easy to despise literally every political party in Ireland, both as a collective and individually the politicians. They're all just different cheeks of the same arse. Varadker is the hole.
The worst thing about the vote is the far right agitators cnuts will have there day, one is a woman beater who beat her when she was pregnant and banned from seeing his kids, he was also banging out heroin, another is anti immigration who’s wife is Canadian who’s kids with her are Canadian and who’s Irish offspring want nothing to do with him wonder why, he was also a thief before he immigrated to Canada.
Thanks for this reading list - been wondering how things moved from women being at the heart of the rebellion to being repressed in just a few short years
I have a mate who has written a few books on 1916 and one of them was about the women involved so we've discussed this a bit.
Kinsella above questioned my mentioning religion but it is hugely relevant, in the revolutionary period, the Free State, and in the drafting of the constitution and then subsequently setting the tone for modern Ireland with the tryst of Church and State. And hugely important in the question of the role of women in the nascent state. Ireland was, and still is to a degree, synonymous with its Catholicism.
In certain aspects of the revolution, there was that universality of freedom that enabled everyone's participation. That wasn't widespread and the revolutionary movement was quite disparate with various strands. As a tedious Marxist, I can't but mention that the women who played roles in the revolution were frequently quite privileged members of society.
Anyway, the dominant strand post-revolution, which was the one closest to ideology to British rule was the catholic messianic version of the Republic. This was probably not by accident. Connolly's universal socialist role was hugely downplayed by all in the aftermath. Instead we favoured a strict and obedient hierarchy. We treated the Republic, like a King or a Pope, or a Christ, a saviour we should defer to and that's the state we got. We had almost none of the usual philosophical literature about government that surrounded the French, American, and Russian Revolutions. Instead, we got the catholic mysticism of Pearse and DeValera.
The Irish Free State was a pretty shitty entity, with the cherry on the cake, its support for Franco. You can tell it was awful by how it's not covered in the school text books. This Church and State pact was hugely influential on the drafting of the constitution and the governance of Ireland in the early decades. It's no secret how the catholic church viewed women.
I don't think the Church's role can be overstated.
I see the usual suspects are treating the result as a victory against political correctness.
Why have that in a constitution at all?
Because a constitution should always make sure women know there place i.e. in the kitchen.
I voted yes / yes but thought both were shitty, weak changes. My thinking was at least they were shitty in a more equitable way.
Not sorry to see them lose. Think we could do far, far better.
Not sorry to see them lose. Think we could do far, far better.
I hadn’t a clue what it was about , didn’t try to find out and didn’t vote. I haven’t voted since the abortion vote and before that I can’t remember if ever I voted
Where the Catholic church's evil peaked and the worst bit were exported.