Terror attack in Moscow music hall | Do not post shooting videos or dead bodies

matherto

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And yet if there's a school shooting in the US and the right calls it a false flag, we consider it disgraceful. As this is, right up until the moment when there's actually literally any evidence for it. It's not like there haven't been terrorist attacks in Russia that haven't been false flags.
You can’t see how one is different to the other considering Putin and co never tell the truth, always obfuscate and misdirect and have form repeatedly for staging attacks on their own people?

I know successive US governments have done some shady shit but they don’t have much form for false flag school shootings and we know far, far too much about the state of their mental health services (or lack of) and ridiculous gun laws hence why any inference that it is is rightfully shot down as stupid.
 

Suedesi

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Why the CIA would warn Russia if the source was within the FSB, the FSB would already know
I didn't say that the CIA would warn Russia; rather, I mentioned that the CIA had accurate warnings about an attack. Did you assume that the US Embassy's warnings originated from the Nickelodeon channel?
 

4bars

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I didn't say that the CIA would warn Russia; rather, I mentioned that the CIA had accurate warnings about an attack. Did you assume that the US Embassy's warnings originated from the Nickelodeon channel?
Ok. Ill chew it for you

We assume that the US had the intelligence because presumably warned Russia about it (and that is the premise with your conversation with @Morty_ )
You say that the US might had the intelligence from their FSB sources, ergo FSB should have that intelligence for the US to know through their sources
If the US had the intelligence from the FSB, why would the US warn the FSB (is irrelevant what the FSB was about to do with that information) that had the intelligence in the first place

Besides Nickelodeon and FSB I am pretty sure the US has many other sources, Disney Channel perhaps
 

The Firestarter

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Ok. Ill chew it for you

We assume that the US had the intelligence because presumably warned Russia about it (and that is the premise with your conversation with @Morty_ )
You say that the US might had the intelligence from their FSB sources, ergo FSB should have that intelligence for the US to know through their sources
If the US had the intelligence from the FSB, why would the US warn the FSB (is irrelevant what the FSB was about to do with that information) that had the intelligence in the first place

Besides Nickelodeon and FSB I am pretty sure the US has many other sources, Disney Channel perhaps
The Discovery channel is my bet.
 

Suedesi

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Ok. Ill chew it for you

We assume that the US had the intelligence because presumably warned Russia about it (and that is the premise with your conversation with @Morty_ )
You say that the US might had the intelligence from their FSB sources, ergo FSB should have that intelligence for the US to know through their sources
If the US had the intelligence from the FSB, why would the US warn the FSB (is irrelevant what the FSB was about to do with that information) that had the intelligence in the first place

Besides Nickelodeon and FSB I am pretty sure the US has many other sources, Disney Channel perhaps
You don't need to assume that the US had the intelligence - we know that CIA had the intelligence because they passed it to State and the US Embassy in Russia spells it out in pretty unambiguous terms the following warning for US citizens:




It’s not unusual and best practice for both America and Russia to inform each other about suspected terrorist attacks, regardless of the source.
 

Suedesi

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That's pretty funny when you posted that tweet suggesting it was the Israelis.
First of all, a terrorist attack is never funny. When a Likud senior party member says in pretty uncertain terms over and over that Russia will pay for it, are you dismissing Israeli involvement out of hand? Why? They've done plenty worse in Gaza.
 

glazed

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It's becoming increasingly clear that the world is already in a war of sorts and has polarised into two highly aggressive camps.

On the one side is Russia, China, and Iran, plus their vassals - Hamas (till they were left in the lurch), Hezbollah, Yemen, North Korea etc
On the other side, Israel, Western Europe and the United States

Islamic State, being predominantly Sunni and Wahhabi in philosophy, are profoundly opposed to Shia Iran, as witnessed by the Kerman suicide bombing we saw a few months ago. They also have a strong anti Russian presence in the North Caucasus. They also took a pounding from Russia in Syria. Ironically they are now the enemy of our enemy. Which is why Iran accused them of being in league with Israel, ridiculous as that sounds.

Eventually everyone will have to pick a side.
 

Sir Matt

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I'm sure the news that the US and the West provided warnings about impending terrorist attacks has been suppressed in Russia, but it should highlight for the Russian people whose security Putin actually takes seriously. If there's even the chance that someone protests him, there will be a horde of goons to suppress it, but if there's a terrorist attack, there won't be anyone trying to stop it.
 

frostbite

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It's becoming increasingly clear that the world is already in a war of sorts and has polarised into two highly aggressive camps.

On the one side is Russia, China, and Iran, plus their vassals - Hamas (till they were left in the lurch), Hezbollah, Yemen, North Korea etc
On the other side, Israel, Western Europe and the United States

Islamic State, being predominantly Sunni and Wahhabi in philosophy, are profoundly opposed to Shia Iran, as witnessed by the Kerman suicide bombing we saw a few months ago. They also have a strong anti Russian presence in the North Caucasus. They also took a pounding from Russia in Syria. Ironically they are now the enemy of our enemy. Which is why Iran accused them of being in league with Israel, ridiculous as that sounds.

Eventually everyone will have to pick a side.
It is always attractive to imagine that everything has two sides (for many people it's just black and white, or good and evil, or God and Satan).

However, real life is usually more complicated. Terrorists like ISIS and Hamas can very well hate Russia and China as much as Israel and the West. Actually, they can hate everyone who does not belong to their ranks, including peaceful muslims who do not like their terrorist acts and just want to live a nice life. Terrorists are fanatics, they don't think like normal people.
 

That_Bloke

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I'm sure the news that the US and the West provided warnings about impending terrorist attacks has been suppressed in Russia, but it should highlight for the Russian people whose security Putin actually takes seriously. If there's even the chance that someone protests him, there will be a horde of goons to suppress it, but if there's a terrorist attack, there won't be anyone trying to stop it.
Now, now.

I'd urge you to think once more about what you wrote.
 

Sir Matt

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Now, now. Take a deep a breath and think once more about what you wrote.
They had pretty specific warnings, and the US embassy even publicized the warnings about large events and concerts. I guess at least this time Putin wasn't orchestrating it. It's abundantly clear that the Russian security apparatus is entirely focused on maintaining Putin's regime rather than ensuring national security. It's reminiscent of Beslan, when the FSB apparently knew about the terrorist attack four hours before it happened and the local police weeks before.

On the bright side for Putin, they've so fully eliminated the independent press they won't have to poison journalists trying to report on this attack like they did with Beslan.
 

That_Bloke

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They had pretty specific warnings, and the US embassy even publicized the warnings about large events and concerts. I guess at least this time Putin wasn't orchestrating it. It's abundantly clear that the Russian security apparatus is entirely focused on maintaining Putin's regime rather than ensuring national security. It's reminiscent of Beslan, when the FSB apparently knew about the terrorist attack four hours before it happened and the local police weeks before.

On the bright side for Putin, they've so fully eliminated the independent press they won't have to poison journalists trying to report on this attack like they did with Beslan.
I take it you never really were in a situation when you had to run for your life.

9/11, 11/13 and 10/7 are telling examples of how things can go south despite the best efforts in material, intelligence and human resources.

Going "Hurr durr, Putin and Russia very evil. Such dumb, much bad" isn't the way to keep an open mind and understand how things happened and unravelled. It's way too early to formulate any kind of educated guess as to how this attack could occur and why the response was so slow, or at the very least not efficient. Some of the finest brains in this forum were convinced, two minutes after the terrorist attack, that it was a false flag operation and would've bet their house on it.

Then came ISIS, (momentarily) smashing a nuclear egg on their face.

For the record, I personally don't rule out any option or explanation. Everything's still possible. We just have to wait a bit more than a couple of hours before deciding who was behind it, who fecked up and why.
 
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MiceOnMeth

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Correct me if I'm wrong but is this the first Isis attack in Europe in a good few years?
 

Raoul

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Correct me if I'm wrong but is this the first Isis attack in Europe in a good few years?
ISIS isn't really a coherent organization anymore. What you have now are decentralized cells or lone wolf types who get radicalized online. The last attack in Europe was apparently a 15 year old kid who stabbed a Jewish man earlier this month after releasing an ISIS pledge video just before. Last year, there were a couple of lone wolf attacks in Belgium and France as well.
 

Beans

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I take it you never really were in a situation when you had to run for your life.

9/11, 11/13 and 10/7 are telling examples of how things can go south despite the best efforts, material, intelligence and human resources.

Going "Hurr durr, Putin and Russia very evil. Such dumb, much bad" isn't the way to keep an open mind and understand how things happened and unravelled. It's way too early to formulate any kind of educated guess as to how this attack could occur, and why the response was so slow, or at the very least not efficient. Some of the finest brains in this forum were convinced, two minutes after the terrorist attack, that it was it was a false flag operation and would've bet their house on it.

Then came ISIS, (momentarily) smashing a nuclear egg on their face.

For the record, I personally don't rule out any option or explanation. Everything's still possible. We just have to wait a bit more than a couple of hours before deciding who was behind it, who fecked up and why.
They speculated it might be. Apparently you think it might be, since you're not ruling anything out.
 

Goldfiessli

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ISIS isn't really a coherent organization anymore. What you have now are decentralized cells or lone wolf types who get radicalized online. The last attack in Europe was apparently a 15 year old kid who stabbed a Jewish man earlier this month after releasing an ISIS pledge video just before. Last year, there were a couple of lone wolf attacks in Belgium and France as well.
That’s right. A kid in Zurich almost killed a Jewish man with a knife. Swiss citizen with Algerian roots. I think they are still investigating as to how he got radicalised.
 

T00lsh3d

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I take it you never really were in a situation when you had to run for your life.

9/11, 11/13 and 10/7 are telling examples of how things can go south despite the best efforts in material, intelligence and human resources.

Going "Hurr durr, Putin and Russia very evil. Such dumb, much bad" isn't the way to keep an open mind and understand how things happened and unravelled. It's way too early to formulate any kind of educated guess as to how this attack could occur, and why the response was so slow, or at the very least not efficient. Some of the finest brains in this forum were convinced, two minutes after the terrorist attack, that it was it was a false flag operation and would've bet their house on it.

Then came ISIS, (momentarily) smashing a nuclear egg on their face.

For the record, I personally don't rule out any option or explanation. Everything's still possible. We just have to wait a bit more than a couple of hours before deciding who was behind it, who fecked up and why.
Surely we can still say Hurr Hurr, Russia and Putin evil anyway without actually knowing the full detail…..they’ve kind of got form for it at this point
 

That_Bloke

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Surely we can still say Hurr Hurr, Russia and Putin evil anyway without actually knowing the full detail…..they’ve kind of got form for it at this point
Yes, you can.

Will it help you to understand what happened and why (if you're ever interested in these pesky details)? I very much doubt so.
 

T00lsh3d

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Yes, you can.

Will it help you to understand what happened and why (if you're ever interested in these pesky details)? I very much doubt so.
The details aren’t available yet but when they are a lot of people will view them through the lense of the Russian state being evil. And in my opinion quite fairly, given their past form. I’m not sure why you’re so opposed to this to the point of being sarcastic about it. Do you think they’re good guys that care about their people?
 

Desert Eagle

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The details aren’t available yet but when they are a lot of people will view them through the lense of the Russian state being evil. And in my opinion quite fairly, given their past form. I’m not sure why you’re so opposed to this to the point of being sarcastic about it. Do you think they’re good guys that care about their people?
Do you think America is a "good guy"? Or England ? Is it fair to view these states as evil given their past form?
 

2cents

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First of all, a terrorist attack is never funny. When a Likud senior party member says in pretty uncertain terms over and over that Russia will pay for it, are you dismissing Israeli involvement out of hand? Why? They've done plenty worse in Gaza.
Can you tell us more about Amir Weitmann's role as a "Likud senior party member"?
 

That_Bloke

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The details aren’t available yet but when they are a lot of people will view them through the lense of the Russian state being evil. And in my opinion quite fairly, given their past form. I’m not sure why you’re so opposed to this to the point of being sarcastic about it. Do you think they’re good guys that care about their people?
I personally don't give a rat's ass about what other people think of Russia or its current leader. Especially the ones who hold Russia as some kind of mustache twirling villain, being evil for the lulz.

While I personally consider Putin as an authoritarian thug from a bygone era, he has a certain idea of Russia, and in his own twisted way cares about his country and its people. Does it mean that I agree with him or his methods? No, of course not.

As for being evil, the Western democracies have proved to be as destructive on an international scale, if not more, as Putin's or Xi Jinping's dictatorships. It might still not dawn for a lot of people in the West who live on the sunny side of the current world's order, but that's how the global South and the Wretched of the Earth feel.

There's no good guys in this story.
 
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Pickle85

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No, they didn't.

Yes, I do.
Yes, there were people speculating that it might be a false flag op...weird one to deny. The tone of your posts is weirdly patronizing when all you're essentially saying is 'we don't know anything at this point, so I'm not ruling anything in or out'. Hardly the musings of a geopolitical oracle...
 

Pogue Mahone

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Do you think America is a "good guy"? Or England ? Is it fair to view these states as evil given their past form?
What sort of simpleton sees nation states as good guys or bad guys?

One thing’s for sure though. Putin has recent, personal, form for wrongdoing that eclipses anything those other countries have done over the same period of time. Hence, as @T00lsh3d says, he is seen through a different lens.
 

Bastian

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Could you be a little bit more specific? What exactly do the zionists have to do with this, or ISIS?
I was drawing a comparison from earlier when people were made to believe that Hamas had done all sorts which was found to be unfounded and then it turned out the zionists did those things (raped hostages, or those they subsequently murdered). And in that scenario the truth did not come out (and hasn't yet, fully) in the immediate 24 hours following. I guess there will be more to this than just ISIS taking ownership.

I am not contending that zionists are ISIS (which is pretty rife on social media) but rather that they are unlikely operating alone, if at all. Though of course, it may be the case, but my guess is this will be more complex. (edit: as in, they may have been operating alone).
 
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Bastian

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Why the CIA would warn Russia if the source was within the FSB, the FSB would already know
Apparently the warning was completely unspecific. Which gives them some plausible deniability. Again, there's too little information at the moment.
 

That_Bloke

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Yes, there were people speculating that it might be a false flag op...weird one to deny. The tone of your posts is weirdly patronizing when all you're essentially saying is 'we don't know anything at this point, so I'm not ruling anything in or out'. Hardly the musings of a geopolitical oracle...
They did not speculate but outright pointed the finger at Putin and there was no doubt to be found in their posts.

I'm just astounded by how fast people chose the "Putin dunnit" explanation whilst the terrorist attack was still underway and people gunned down, without anyone of us realistically having any kind of meaningful intel.

I'm not patronizing anyone as I currently am as much in the dark as anyone else. Just questioning how people made up their mind so quickly with little to no information.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I was drawing a comparison from earlier when people were made to believe that Hamas had done all sorts which was found to be unfounded and then it turned out the zionists did those things (raped hostages, or those they subsequently murdered). And in that scenario the truth did not come out (and hasn't yet, fully) in the immediate 24 hours following. I guess there will be more to this than just ISIS taking ownership.

I am not contending that zionists are ISIS (which is pretty rife on social media) but rather that they are unlikely operating alone, if at all. Though of course, it may be the case, but my guess is this will be more complex.
Fecking hell. You should probably extricate yourself from that particular echo chamber.
 

Gehrman

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Do you think America is a "good guy"? Or England ? Is it fair to view these states as evil given their past form?
If think it makes more sense to think in goverments, regimes and actions in decades. Democracies at least have some fair methods of regime change. Totalitarian states dont. But anyway we are going into whataboutism.
 

Rams

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Jesus, the state of this thread…

Condolences to the victims & their families. Absolutely horrific & evil act.