Will Ripley reporting on CNN right now. The number of problems that ship has had is just... fecking hell.
Baltimore bridge collapse
- Thread starter Ekkie Thump
- Start date
And it seems they knew about it.
"In June (2023), inspectors at the port of San Antonio, Chile, discovered a problem categorized as relating to “Propulsion and auxiliary machinery,” according to the Tokyo MOU, an intergovernmental shipping regulator in the Asia-Pacific region."
The problems were obviously not fixed.
They’ve suspended the search and rescue. The rest are presumed dead now. Terrible stuff. 
Terrible news. I mean who can survive in cold water for 20 hours or so. Heartbreaking!
As an ex skipper that was it not for a medical issue could have been piloting a vessel like this, I can honestly say without all the facts nobody can explain this right now. My licence allowed me to pilot ships up to 3000 tonnes, but the basics principles are exactly the same. I've also done my pilots exemptions tickets for many areas around the South and East Coasts of the UK and worked briefly on a Pilot vessel in Torbay and have many friends working on vessels like this. Including my best mate who is currently piloting a 60,000 tonne vessel around the Maldives. Lucky fecker.
I don't know the area, but you would have a shipping channel and any large vessel would have to follow it. Depending on the rules for that particular area you would either have a local pilot at the helm or alongside the ships captain or you would have tugs guiding it. News reports said there were TWO local Baltimore pilots at the helm at the time of the collision which says to me that everything that could have been done would have been.
Again without local knowledge I can only guess, but if it lost power whilst underway then even at the bare minimum speed the momentum would have been impossible to stop. It can take larger oil tankers and shipping container carriers up to 4 miles to come to a complete halt and up to about 25/30 minutes. Vessel speed, depth of the channel, wind speed and direction and most importantly tide speed, direction and flow need to be accounted for. Channels like this one here often have conflicting eddies where tide bounces or gets forced the opposite way it should naturally be flowing.
Again without knowing the full details the only things I could think could realistically be done with complete loss of power and steering would be to ensure everyone on board was as safe as possible and everything on board was as secure as possible to reduce risk of further incidents caused by large containers flying around or landing on the shore etc.
They could have theoretically dropped their anchors to slow the vessel but that comes with added risks too such as snagging power or gas lines etc. They also could have opened all the sea cocks to the engines which provide water cooling, however that could have potentially sank the vessel. Dumping fuel is out of the question due to fire and environmental risks. They would have emergency tiller/rudder controls that could be operated by hand and at a guess, some of the direction changes could be explained by pilots either aiming for shallow ground to run it around or aiming to directly hit a solid object. If it had missed the pillar it potentially could have continued and caused more destruction and still made the bridge collapse anyway. The main stays (wires) would have been fecked regardless which would ultimately cause the bridge to fail.
In short, sadly, I honestly don't think anything could have been done and it's just a truly tragic and insanely unlucky incident. The sheer size and weight of a vessel that size, out of control is unstoppable and will only stop if it runs aground or when it hits something. I sincerely think given the reports that that is what happened. I hope that's the case too.
Fortunately things like this don't happen very often. The ship blocking the Suez Canal is the last time I can remember anything like this in recent years.
@langster That is a very interesting input. With now everything that has been said since this morning, it is increasingly clearer that the main reason for this accident is boiling down to power and/or mechanical issues in the middle of a maneuver.
What really irks me now is what Will Ripley mentioned earlier about recent "deficiencies" listed on that ship after various inspections (Chile in June, Belgium in November). It's like no one did anything to make appropriate repairs.
What really irks me now is what Will Ripley mentioned earlier about recent "deficiencies" listed on that ship after various inspections (Chile in June, Belgium in November). It's like no one did anything to make appropriate repairs.
I've been at work all day and had only seen videos of the crash and read the initial reports from some news outlets when I first posted. I've spent the last hour or so chatting with some mates and reading more up on it all.
It seems (allegedly) that the company in charge of the vessel are now being investigated as they have previously been in trouble for ignoring basic safety measures, not implemented rigourous checks and have failed safety tests on this vessel and others in their fleet. There was also a Tweet I saw that I can't seem to find now that suggests workers refused to sail as they were aware of issues/faults and their protests or objections and warnings were ignored. The ship itself had also been involved in a similar incident back in 2016 which brings more questions about safety, crew qualifications and seaworthiness.
Things like that will all come out later in time but none of that would surprise me at all. Those scenarios are far more likely than some of the batshit conspiracy theories being thrown around or the blatant excuse to push a low paid worker or racist agenda/terrorist angles that seems to be all over social media at the moment.
Sadly, with money always talking safety issues can be a serious issue. International differences don't help at times as each country often has different laws and safety requirements and with the huge amount of marine traffic things do get missed. I can't imagine the hours and manpower it would take to check countless vessels of that size when dozens enter a port on a daily basis.
All that being said, judging from all I have seen, it absolutely looks like an accident. Avoidable due to poor maintenance or ignoring issues thinking they could be sorted at a later date? Definitely. But an accident nonetheless. Without disrespecting the loss of lives, it's actually quite fortunate it wasn't an awful lot worse. It could easily have happened in the middle of the day when thousands were on the bridge or as I said, the ship continued on to cause more damage. Worse, it could have exploded or be sat there leaking fuel and causing even more headaches.
If as it seems this was avoidable then it's likely this company won't survive, although they do have 660 ships on their books. That's probably the only good news to take from this tragic incident.
Last edited:
Frank Sobotka sleeps with the bridges
Indeed.
Given that, one wonders why it
Fair enough. I suppose strong currents (probably a tidal estuary) can take a ship a long way off course in only five minutes.
I work in a logistics company in Antwerp harbor, we just got a briefing from a major shipping company. Few snippets:
"The ocean terminals at Seagirt, Dundalk and Fairfield have all been closed.
There is no clear indication from the Port of Baltimore how long it will take to clear the bridge wreckage and reopen a navigable channel.
We understand there is heightened urgency to re-open the waterway because several US Navy vessels are blocked inside the port. Several cargo vessels are blocked as well."
"Until further notice, as long as the channel remains closed, all container, RO/RO and car services for all carriers to/from Baltimore’s major terminals are suspended."
"The ocean terminals at Seagirt, Dundalk and Fairfield have all been closed.
There is no clear indication from the Port of Baltimore how long it will take to clear the bridge wreckage and reopen a navigable channel.
We understand there is heightened urgency to re-open the waterway because several US Navy vessels are blocked inside the port. Several cargo vessels are blocked as well."
"Until further notice, as long as the channel remains closed, all container, RO/RO and car services for all carriers to/from Baltimore’s major terminals are suspended."
The issue was classified in the subcategory of “Gauges, thermometers, etc,” but no additional details of the deficiency were provided. The problem was not serious enough to warrant detaining the ship, according to the records, and the Dali was found to have no outstanding deficiencies after a follow-up inspection later that day.
Somehow this does not look like a thermometer issue
Depends what the thermometer is connected to, i suppose, though there shouldn't be any single point of failure for their propulsion system.
Will be interesting to see the report.
at 1.17 in that video - two vehicles go right to left - lucky to be alive!
This is a travesty for those that lost their lives. Can't imagine what the families are going through. I never liked driving over that bridge. Always white knuckle, especially when there were high winds. Delaware Memorial Bridge too. My daughter was doing some intern work for the Army Corp a few years ago and had to drive one of those ram protection trucks that park in front of workers on the Chesapeake City bridge. I feared for her when she had that job. Glad it's over. I do travel that bridge often and am not a fan of it either. It's a much narrower span being a canal but some huge ships pass through it. I suspect they will be looking at ways to mitigate these types of disasters on all bridges. Too bad it takes one to get the ball rolling.
I suspect the feds are going to make the rebuild top priority. That bridge was used by anyone hauling hazmat as they can't go through the tunnels and the only other option is city streets or the long way around the outer loop which is already a shit show for traffic on a good day.
I suspect the feds are going to make the rebuild top priority. That bridge was used by anyone hauling hazmat as they can't go through the tunnels and the only other option is city streets or the long way around the outer loop which is already a shit show for traffic on a good day.
Ships have temperature and pressure gauges and only warn of issues, they don't stop or prevent anything.
Sadly if the vessel suffers a complete power failure then there is no chance for any backup system to work. Any back up would have lost power too. The only thing would be an emergency tiller/rudder. Propulsion wasn't the only issue, although rear thrust or bow thrusters would have helped, the lack of steering would have been an issue too.
Ships like this are piloted by computer and a tiny joystick with thruster levers. Imagine the volume up/down knob on your car stereo and that's what is used to pilot vessels like this along with nav coordinates entered in to computer controls. Quite often the large steering wheels are disconnected and just for show. Even if it was connected then it would only allow steerage and no way to reduce speed.
Complete power failure throughout the vessel basically turns it in to a 120,000 uncontrollable floating brick. You may be able to steer.it and change its course slightly but you have no way of stopping it other than ramming in to something or taking it aground.
I was wondering, if it had full power failure, would that disable the rudder?
Yeah, absolutely as it will have digital/servo controls. However, as I said it will have emergency rudder controls, but that will only aid steering and not stop momentum. If it was travelling at 5 knots when it failed then given the weight and length of the ship that would probably be about a mile before it came to a full stop and if it had a tide and wind pushing it too then that really wouldn't help.
It's only guessing until the report comes out or the pilots give an interview, however I bet they are being told to not speak to the press until the enquiry has taken place. Again, from the video I have seen it does appear they aimed for the pillar thinking it would stop the vessel instead of taking the middle part of the bridge out where they could see vehicles and people were. They probably thought it would stop it and not cause the bridge to fail and collapse like it did. Most bridges in heavy shipping areas have safety barriers around the main supports, but they would have known this one didn't as they were local harbour pilots. They really were in a no win situation and it's just incredibly unlucky the power failed when it did.
Here's the basic controls of a P&O ferry. Two rudder controls with the thruster joysticks above them. Digital readouts showing direction and thrust gauges.
They are only used when coming in to or leaving the dock. After that destination is entered in to the ships nav/plotter system and it automatically calculates the tide/wind and variation or deviation for you.
Before all this everything was done by hand with a ships wheel and using charts. You had to work out tide, wind and variation and deviation yourself. Variation and deviation is the difference between the true and magnetic north and south poles.
EDIT! As a side note, anyone who understands basic navigation (marine or aviation) will know calculations have to be made as you can't just point at something far away and aim for it due to the curvature of the earth and not factoring that in will lead you miles off course. A fact I've never heard a flat earther be able to explain away.
They are only used when coming in to or leaving the dock. After that destination is entered in to the ships nav/plotter system and it automatically calculates the tide/wind and variation or deviation for you.
Before all this everything was done by hand with a ships wheel and using charts. You had to work out tide, wind and variation and deviation yourself. Variation and deviation is the difference between the true and magnetic north and south poles.
EDIT! As a side note, anyone who understands basic navigation (marine or aviation) will know calculations have to be made as you can't just point at something far away and aim for it due to the curvature of the earth and not factoring that in will lead you miles off course. A fact I've never heard a flat earther be able to explain away.
Last edited:
I’d imagine the sail effect of those containers would be immense if there was any kinda cross wind coming across the harbor.
That’s what had me wondering about the rudder… I was wondering if the rudder got stuck mid-turn and put it on a collision course
Anything for you
To be fair it would have to be a pretty strong wind to bother a ship of that size due to the weight and the draught of the vessel. It would definitely be an issue though if there was no power.
Large ships have digital electro-hydraulic steering gear that operate massive rams that make steering more precise. As you can imagine the forces involved with such weight and power are immense. It would be near impossible to move accurately without powered assistance and having driven using analogue steering on only small passenger boats (100ft length) I can honestly say I was fecking shattered after a few hours. Even worse in bad weather or strong currents/tides. The downfall though is with total electric failure you lose steerage along with everything else. Although back up generators would restore steering, I think this accident was more due to momentum and the inability to slow or stop the ship rather than steering issues. Again, if you watch the videos showing the head on collision with the bridge you can clearly see the ship turning rather than being pushed by wind or tide.
Thanks babe. xoxo.
Bellends.
If it's just a gauge then yeah, it won't stop anything, but propulsion systems always have a large amount of sensors to limit risk of damage, so depends what type of equipment they've had problems with before and how they solved it.
They have an emergency generator that should come online, SOLAS states within 45 seconds.
1. The container vessel, Dali, was flagged with Singapore from October 2016 and is classed by classification society ClassNK. Classification societies are generally authorised by a flag administration to monitor compliance to technical standards and the applicable regulations by vessels registered under its flag.
2. Based on records, the Maritime and Port Authority of Singapore confirms that the vessel’s required classification society and statutory certificates covering the structural integrity of the vessel and functionality of the vessel’s equipment, were valid at the time of the incident.
3. The vessel also underwent and passed two separate foreign port state inspections in June and September 2023. In the June 2023 inspection, a faulty monitor gauge for fuel pressure was rectified before the vessel departed the port.
4. Dali's next classification and statutory surveys are due in June 2024.
Richard With had a blackout in Norway a few years ago and hit land, after doing upgrades to their propulsion system (inclusion of batteries, hybrid power etc). Accident report hasn't been released as far as i'm aware, but they didn't have enough time between blackout and hitting land for the emergency generator to come online.
I have a feeling the company i work for is going to be very much involved with the accident report for this one..
Yeah, I am just guessing really given the videos and reports I've seen and going by conversations I've had with a few mates about it. I think the main point I was getting at with all the posts I've made is it's just a really unfortunate accident and it doesn't look like anything more sinister than pure bad luck. Although with the same ship having previously collided with a dock and the rumours of poor safety measures and checks etc, and given the loss of life and cost of damage I think it will be a nightmare that could go on through the courts for a very long time. Ultimately the insurance companies will be picking through everything and anything to avoid paying out on this one. Not to mention the investigation due to loss of life. Ultimately someone will have to be held responsible. The poor pilots must be beside themselves too, although unless it's found to be human error I don't think and sincerely hope they don't get the blame.
As far as i can guess, they have one blackout and less than 60 seconds later the lights come on, which makes sense. Then you have the black smoke and ship going off course followed by another blackout. Human error in various form is most def involved here. I reckon there are two cock ups, one related to the initial blackout and one related to what they did when power was restored, which then caused the second blackout. My gut feeling would be that they panicked and went full reverse without having sufficient power available.
This is what I questioned earlier in the thread. Even if that was initially the case, do these bridges not have to pass annual safety tests and inspections? How has it just been left defenceless this entire time? How can a bridge that was primed for such an incident be considered fit for purpose?
"was vulnerable to the impact of a massive container ship."
I thought that was a funny sentence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_protection_systems
Great info. Thanks for that.
Obviously the ship being out of control is a tragic, but the bridge having no defence against such a potential occurrence, heads should roll.
Three ships have hit bridges in different countries – in just three months. Should we be worried? (CNN)
My answer? MORE TUGBOATS PLEASE!
If we can no longer rely on those ships to avoid collisions, then we ought to rely on tugboats again just like in the old days.
My answer? MORE TUGBOATS PLEASE!
If we can no longer rely on those ships to avoid collisions, then we ought to rely on tugboats again just like in the old days.
Now imagine those tug boats being controlled by AI going haywire.
I didn't see the power restored, will have to give it another look. Jamming it straight in to reverse would be a rookie error indeed but would only be an issue if it was from being full ahead to full astern If the power has failed you would have expected them to have put the engines in neutral. At worst the props would just be cavitating a few seconds and churning rather than propelling the boat backwards, but I suppose every second counts in a situation like that. Again, we need to wait for the report to come out.
Last edited:
The NTSB: The ship had 764 tons of hazardous materials. Some containers of hazmats were breached.
They described the state of the bridge as “satisfactory”…
They described the state of the bridge as “satisfactory”…
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Some more info coming out. The inquiry is already underway according to sources. It's going to take a while, but it's already looking like (as expected) the ships owner company are going to be responsible and found liable.
Other reports I have seen say both pilots stories corroborate each other and suggest crew lacked basic seamanship skills and the safety knowledge and were unsure of what to do in an emergency.
If the above is true the company is going to get fecking spanked.
Been reading on Twitter (I have no idea how accurate it is) that a dolphin structure at the foot of the bridge pillars could have actually prevented the ship from hitting it head on? Is the dolphin thing actually that helpful and if it could have prevented something like this, why wasn't it used?