RedDevilQuebecois
Full Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2021
- Messages
- 8,214
Will Ripley reporting on CNN right now. The number of problems that ship has had is just... fecking hell.
And it seems they knew about it.Will Ripley reporting on CNN right now. The number of problems that ship has had is just... fecking hell.
As an ex skipper that was it not for a medical issue could have been piloting a vessel like this, I can honestly say without all the facts nobody can explain this right now. My licence allowed me to pilot ships up to 3000 tonnes, but the basics principles are exactly the same. I've also done my pilots exemptions tickets for many areas around the South and East Coasts of the UK and worked briefly on a Pilot vessel in Torbay and have many friends working on vessels like this. Including my best mate who is currently piloting a 60,000 tonne vessel around the Maldives. Lucky fecker.No pilot from the harbor authority at the helm? No emergency engine shutdown? I do not believe that there was absolutely nothing that could stop that ship form carrying on that route.
@langster That is a very interesting input. With now everything that has been said since this morning, it is increasingly clearer that the main reason for this accident is boiling down to power and/or mechanical issues in the middle of a maneuver.
What really irks me now is what Will Ripley mentioned earlier about recent "deficiencies" listed on that ship after various inspections (Chile in June, Belgium in November). It's like no one did anything to make appropriate repairs.
Indeed.I think you’re getting, maybe, just a bit carried away here.
That ship is about 115,000 tons.
Fair enough. I suppose strong currents (probably a tidal estuary) can take a ship a long way off course in only five minutes.CISA has just confirmed that the ship "lost propulsion". It looks like from what the BBC is reporting that the ship drifted off course 5 minutes before hitting the bridge, I presume it drifted into it.
The issue was classified in the subcategory of “Gauges, thermometers, etc,” but no additional details of the deficiency were provided. The problem was not serious enough to warrant detaining the ship, according to the records, and the Dali was found to have no outstanding deficiencies after a follow-up inspection later that day.And it seems they knew about it.
"In June (2023), inspectors at the port of San Antonio, Chile, discovered a problem categorized as relating to “Propulsion and auxiliary machinery,” according to the Tokyo MOU, an intergovernmental shipping regulator in the Asia-Pacific region."
The problems were obviously not fixed.
Depends what the thermometer is connected to, i suppose, though there shouldn't be any single point of failure for their propulsion system.Somehow this does not look like a thermometer issue
at 1.17 in that video - two vehicles go right to left - lucky to be alive!You can see vehicles travelling across the bridge prior to impact, but there doesn't appear to be any crossing at the exact moment. Just the stationary flashing vehicles. Don't know if the smoke billowing out of the back of the ship is normal or not.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Ships have temperature and pressure gauges and only warn of issues, they don't stop or prevent anything.Depends what the thermometer is connected to, i suppose, though there shouldn't be any single point of failure for their propulsion system.
Will be interesting to see the report.
I was wondering, if it had full power failure, would that disable the rudder?Ships have temperature and pressure gauges and only warn of issues, they don't stop or prevent anything.
Sadly if the vessel suffers a complete power failure then there is no chance for any backup system to work. Any back up would have lost power too. The only thing would be an emergency tiller/rudder. Propulsion wasn't the only issue, although rear thrust or bow thrusters would have helped, the lack of steering would have been an issue too.
Ships like this are piloted by computer and a tiny joystick with thruster levers. Imagine the volume up/down knob on your car stereo and that's what is used to pilot vessels like this along with nav coordinates entered in to computer controls. Quite often the large steering wheels are disconnected and just for show. Even if it was connected then it would only allow steerage and no way to reduce speed.
Complete power failure throughout the vessel basically turns it in to a 120,000 uncontrollable floating brick. You may be able to steer.it and change its course slightly but you have no way of stopping it other than ramming in to something or taking it aground.
Yeah, absolutely as it will have digital/servo controls. However, as I said it will have emergency rudder controls, but that will only aid steering and not stop momentum. If it was travelling at 5 knots when it failed then given the weight and length of the ship that would probably be about a mile before it came to a full stop and if it had a tide and wind pushing it too then that really wouldn't help.I was wondering, if it had full power failure, would that disable the rudder?
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...of-baltimore-bridge/articleshow/108813735.cmsAccording to experts, the Francis Scott Key Bridge, constructed in 1977, did not incorporate fenders or protection cells, technologies that became common in the 1980s following similar accidents.
The absence of these crucial elements meant the bridge had no defense against the nearly 105,000 ton vessel, leading to a loss far exceeding the potential cost of installing such systems, a Daily Mail report said.
Experts estimate that implementing these necessary fenders on the bridge would have cost around $3 million. In contrast, the bridge's failure has led to an estimated loss of $15 million per day in economic activities, coupled with $1.5 million daily losses in state and local revenues, the Daily Mail report said.
I’d imagine the sail effect of those containers would be immense if there was any kinda cross wind coming across the harbor.and if it had a tide and wind pushing it too then that really wouldn't help.
That’s what had me wondering about the rudder… I was wondering if the rudder got stuck mid-turn and put it on a collision courseAgain, from the video I have seen it does appear they aimed for the pillar thinking it would stop the vessel
Anything for you
To be fair it would have to be a pretty strong wind to bother a ship of that size due to the weight and the draught of the vessel. It would definitely be an issue though if there was no power.I’d imagine the sail effect of those containers would be immense if there was any kinda cross wind coming across the harbor.
That’s what had me wondering about the rudder… I was wondering if the rudder got stuck mid-turn and put it on a collision course
Bellends.Anything for you
Thanks babe. xoxo.Anything for you
Bellends.
If it's just a gauge then yeah, it won't stop anything, but propulsion systems always have a large amount of sensors to limit risk of damage, so depends what type of equipment they've had problems with before and how they solved it.Ships have temperature and pressure gauges and only warn of issues, they don't stop or prevent anything.
Sadly if the vessel suffers a complete power failure then there is no chance for any backup system to work. Any back up would have lost power too. The only thing would be an emergency tiller/rudder. Propulsion wasn't the only issue, although rear thrust or bow thrusters would have helped, the lack of steering would have been an issue too.
Ships like this are piloted by computer and a tiny joystick with thruster levers. Imagine the volume up/down knob on your car stereo and that's what is used to pilot vessels like this along with nav coordinates entered in to computer controls. Quite often the large steering wheels are disconnected and just for show. Even if it was connected then it would only allow steerage and no way to reduce speed.
Complete power failure throughout the vessel basically turns it in to a 120,000 uncontrollable floating brick. You may be able to steer.it and change its course slightly but you have no way of stopping it other than ramming in to something or taking it aground.
Yeah, I am just guessing really given the videos and reports I've seen and going by conversations I've had with a few mates about it. I think the main point I was getting at with all the posts I've made is it's just a really unfortunate accident and it doesn't look like anything more sinister than pure bad luck. Although with the same ship having previously collided with a dock and the rumours of poor safety measures and checks etc, and given the loss of life and cost of damage I think it will be a nightmare that could go on through the courts for a very long time. Ultimately the insurance companies will be picking through everything and anything to avoid paying out on this one. Not to mention the investigation due to loss of life. Ultimately someone will have to be held responsible. The poor pilots must be beside themselves too, although unless it's found to be human error I don't think and sincerely hope they don't get the blame.If it's just a gauge then yeah, it won't stop anything, but propulsion systems always have a large amount of sensors to limit risk of damage, so depends what type of equipment they've had problems with before and how they solved it.
They have an emergency generator that should come online, SOLAS states within 45 seconds.
1. The container vessel, Dali, was flagged with Singapore from October 2016 and is classed by classification society ClassNK. Classification societies are generally authorised by a flag administration to monitor compliance to technical standards and the applicable regulations by vessels registered under its flag.
2. Based on records, the Maritime and Port Authority of Singapore confirms that the vessel’s required classification society and statutory certificates covering the structural integrity of the vessel and functionality of the vessel’s equipment, were valid at the time of the incident.
3. The vessel also underwent and passed two separate foreign port state inspections in June and September 2023. In the June 2023 inspection, a faulty monitor gauge for fuel pressure was rectified before the vessel departed the port.
4. Dali's next classification and statutory surveys are due in June 2024.
Richard With had a blackout in Norway a few years ago and hit land, after doing upgrades to their propulsion system (inclusion of batteries, hybrid power etc). Accident report hasn't been released as far as i'm aware, but they didn't have enough time between blackout and hitting land for the emergency generator to come online.
I have a feeling the company i work for is going to be very much involved with the accident report for this one..
As far as i can guess, they have one blackout and less than 60 seconds later the lights come on, which makes sense. Then you have the black smoke and ship going off course followed by another blackout. Human error in various form is most def involved here. I reckon there are two cock ups, one related to the initial blackout and one related to what they did when power was restored, which then caused the second blackout. My gut feeling would be that they panicked and went full reverse without having sufficient power available.Yeah, I am just guessing really given the videos and reports I've seen and going by conversations I've had with a few mates about it. I think the main point I was getting at with all the posts I've made is it's just a really unfortunate accident and it doesn't look like anything more sinister than pure bad luck. Although with the same ship having previously collided with a dock and the rumours of poor safety measures and checks etc, and given the loss of life and cost of damage I think it will be a nightmare that could go on through the courts for a very long time. Ultimately the insurance companies will be picking through everything and anything to avoid paying out on this one. Not to mention the investigation due to loss of life. Ultimately someone will have to be held responsible. The poor pilots must be beside themselves too, although unless it's found to be human error I don't think and sincerely hope they don't get the blame.
This is what I questioned earlier in the thread. Even if that was initially the case, do these bridges not have to pass annual safety tests and inspections? How has it just been left defenceless this entire time? How can a bridge that was primed for such an incident be considered fit for purpose?
"was vulnerable to the impact of a massive container ship."This is what I questioned earlier in the thread. Even if that was initially the case, do these bridges not have to pass annual safety tests and inspections? How has it just been left defenceless this entire time? How can a bridge that was primed for such an incident be considered fit for purpose?
Great info. Thanks for that."was vulnerable to the impact of a massive container ship."
I thought that was a funny sentence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_protection_systems
Now imagine those tug boats being controlled by AI going haywire.Three ships have hit bridges in different countries – in just three months. Should we be worried? (CNN)
My answer? MORE TUGBOATS PLEASE!
If we can no longer rely on those ships to avoid collisions, then we ought to rely on tugboats again just like in the old days.
I didn't see the power restored, will have to give it another look. Jamming it straight in to reverse would be a rookie error indeed but would only be an issue if it was from being full ahead to full astern If the power has failed you would have expected them to have put the engines in neutral. At worst the props would just be cavitating a few seconds and churning rather than propelling the boat backwards, but I suppose every second counts in a situation like that. Again, we need to wait for the report to come out.As far as i can guess, they have one blackout and less than 60 seconds later the lights come on, which makes sense. Then you have the black smoke and ship going off course followed by another blackout. Human error in various form is most def involved here. I reckon there are two cock ups, one related to the initial blackout and one related to what they did when power was restored, which then caused the second blackout. My gut feeling would be that they panicked and went full reverse without having sufficient power available.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date