Next Season

Plant0x84

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A hypothetical question inspired by TOTD podcast today.
So Erik is still in charge next season, you have 2 options

1) You get a different playing style and tactical plan - with the same players as the current squad

2) You get the same crazy chaotic style of football but with new younger players.

Obviously neither of these options is the ideal, but which compromise are you taking? Which option moves us forward and gets us closer to the league leaders?
 

romufc

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I am so surprised that no one at the football club, the manager, hierarchy, coaches hasn't pulled Ten Hag aside and said.. this is not sustainable. We cannot play this man to man marking football, we leave gaps, from throw ins, from basic basic errors.

Our pressing is poor, we run and the person pressing presses then doesn't track back, leaves the defence open.

There should never be an option to play this style of play.
 

Desert Eagle

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Plant0x84 said:
A hypothetical question inspired by TOTD podcast today.
So Erik is still in charge next season, you have 2 options

1) You get a different playing style and tactical plan - with the same players as the current squad

2) You get the same crazy chaotic style of football but with new younger players.

Obviously neither of these options is the ideal, but which compromise are you taking? Which option moves us forward and gets us closer to the league leaders?
Click to expand...
I'm going with option 1 if forced to pick because I think it will lead to better results for next season. Obviously ideally we would have a different play style and tactical plan but with new players
 

Annihilate Now!

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Obviously option one.

Nothing about our current tactical set-up is sustainable, no matter which players are playing in it and, a bunch of youngsters playing it wolld a) ruin them and b) have us midtable or lower.
 

Plant0x84

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romufc said:
I am so surprised that no one at the football club, the manager, hierarchy, coaches hasn't pulled Ten Hag aside and said.. this is not sustainable. We cannot play this man to man marking football, we leave gaps, from throw ins, from basic basic errors.

Our pressing is poor, we run and the person pressing presses then doesn't track back, leaves the defence open.
Click to expand...
Maybe somebody has said this to the manager, and we are now in limp over the line mode for the end of this busted season.

You’re right though that this style isn’t sustainable in its current incarnation, so do you stick with it but get players who can play it better, or do you change the style to suit the players we have?
 

RORY65

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In terms of next year alone then probably option one but I don't think either makes us much cop next year so probably option two overall. Currently we have no elite players, we have has-beens, second rate players and some really exciting players, and the biggest job is going to be fixing this squad to make it younger, better technically and more athletic.

If the style still didn't work, as I would imagine, we could then make a change of manager but presumably feel a bit better about the players while if we play a different style with these current players then we will at best continue to challenge for top 4 and still not be a good watch.
 

Scandi Red

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Both terrible options. We need better players and better football.

I have very little faith the current project to begin with. But I have zero faith if we don't sign any good players this summer.
 

Plant0x84

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Desert Eagle said:
I'm going with option 1 if forced to pick because I think it will lead to better results for next season. Obviously ideally we would have a different play style and tactical plan but with new players
Click to expand...
Annihilate Now! said:
Obviously option one.

Nothing about our current tactical set-up is sustainable, no matter which players are playing in it and, a bunch of youngsters playing it wolld a) ruin them and b) have us midtable or lower.
Click to expand...
Maybe I should have said ‘better younger players’. The idea is that they are ideally suited to this high intensity transitional style.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Plant0x84 said:
Maybe I should have said ‘better younger players’. The idea is that they are ideally suited to this high intensity transitional style.
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But then would it not be a different tactical set-up anyway? I assume then we'd play with a high-line, and one DM and two 8's (as opposed to one DM with no positional discipline, one 8 (whio is often a 10) and a 10 who runs around everywhere like a lunatic) - which already seems pretty far removed from what we're doing currently.
 
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bosnian_red

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#2 easily. It's about the long term process. Next season is basically year 0, our squad needs a big change in age and profile of player. Make squad improvements and replace ten hag in 2025 when his contract ends with the new structure having the time for everyone to get aligned in what they want us to be as a football Club, and then hiring a manager to fit that.

#1 would give us a much better season next season, but we've got a lot of work that needs to happen in our squad that ignoring the squad changes would set us back much further than having the wrong manager in.
 

CM

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I'm taking option 3, new manager. I don't believe Ten Hag can suddenly stumble upon a tactical system that works for him after a year of stubbornly persisting with one that doesn't, nor do I believe that a few new players can paper over the cracks of an unworkable, cavalier style.
 

bosnian_red

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Annihilate Now! said:
Obviously option one.

Nothing about our current tactical set-up is sustainable, no matter which players are playing in it and, a bunch of youngsters playing it wolld a) ruin them and b) have us midtable or lower.
Click to expand...
Option 1 only if you are looking at next season, but we have to look at it like a process that'll take a few years. What is going to be the best plan for us to become a title challenger by 2027?

For me that's without a doubt option 2, start the rebuild of players, wait for the structure to get aligned with what we want to be as a club, hire a manager in 2025 who fits that, and then push on from there. Our strength is in our top young talents. Mainoo is 18, Garnacho 19, Hojlund 21, then Dalot and Mount are 25. That's basically the core we will build around, and we want the rest of our squad to be in peak ages by the time those 3 are ready to step up, with our next manager having been here and worked on implementing the right system.

A year of ten hag with better tactics but with Bruno, Case, Shaw, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof all basically 30+ and injury prone leaves a massive rebuild job to come and at best a fight for top 4, but with the squad worse off. Better short term results, worse long term prognosis.
 

Plant0x84

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CM said:
I'm taking option 3, new manager. I don't believe Ten Hag can suddenly stumble upon a tactical system that works for him after a year of stubbornly persisting with one that doesn't, nor do I believe that a few new players can paper over the cracks of an unworkable, cavalier style.
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There is no option 3. This is my hypothetical and I say Erik stays. :D
 

Redstain

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I know it's hypothesis but its not realistic for one reason, if Erik was going to change the style and approach of football he would have done so 8 or so games into the season where the evidence of the issues was apparent.

By his own admission he's of the notion that there has been progress. The reality of keeping ETH will be him trying the same things this season in the next campaign with newer faces. He's demonstrated the incapability to adapt, it's not going to change.
 

Lyng

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Option 1 but with the caveat of asking Erik who the players are that have forced him to play this transition basket ball and then replace those.
 

mu4c_20le

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This chaotic football tag is rather flattering, when its really just Oleball on steroids. Instead of making it obvious by parking the bus, we open up pockets of space to draw in the opposition, inviting shots, and looking to counter. Most of our goals are still from individual brilliance rather than patterns of play.
 

Sarni

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Ask ten Hag to provide us with a list of players to make his preferred tactics efficient and provide him with these signings. So whichever he prefers, whether 1 or 2, but with players he thinks are capable of delivering it.
 

Smores

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Why is it necessary to link transfers to a change in tactical setup, makes no sense.

We should be signing new younger players and changing tactics. Is there some blocker to this I'm not seeing?
 

Plant0x84

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Smores said:
Why is it necessary to link transfers to a change in tactical setup, makes no sense.

We should be signing new younger players and changing tactics. Is there some blocker to this I'm not seeing?
Click to expand...
It’s just a hypothetical choice dude, no biggy. Obviously as I said above the ideal is both better players AND a better system but I thought it was interesting to see how people would compromise if it were necessary.
 

Plant0x84

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bosnian_red said:
#2 easily. It's about the long term process. Next season is basically year 0, our squad needs a big change in age and profile of player.
Click to expand...
This is maybe the only post so far that has plumped for option 2, and you make an interesting point. I guess reading between the lines what I’m asking is do people want short term success for a small while or long term longer lived success?
 

Rista

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There isn't much to suggest this kind of football would work with any squad so obviously option 1. It is also by far the more realistic option with FFP and everything.
 

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If Berrada and co. tell ten Hag to play his style from Ajax and will support it with the right signings in midfield and defence then there is a good chance ten Hag will stay. Ten Hag thrived when he was working with Overmars. A similar structure where ten Hag can focus on coaching rather than recruitment might be a welcome change for him and a weight lifted from his shoulders.
 

DWelbz19

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Plant0x84 said:
You’re right though that this style isn’t sustainable in its current incarnation, so do you stick with it but get players who can play it better,
Click to expand...
I don't think it possible to find a full team of players who can actually play well in this system. You might be okay finding a better winger or some younger and quicker CBs, but in particular -- those midfield areas, you'll really struggle with this setup.

You'd need a no.6 who is a monster interceptor, also has the ability to play composed on the ball, and then also has the legs and pace to cover all the ground left behind. You'd need another no.8/10 to replace Fernandes to create chances but also have the discipline on the ball to retain it better and also him too to have the outrageous stamina levels that Fernandes does.

I just don't think these players exist. Or if they do, they sure aren't on the market for us.
 

DWelbz19

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Giggsy13 said:
If Berrada and co. tell ten Hag to play his style from Ajax and will support it with the right signings in midfield and defence then there is a good chance ten Hag will stay. Ten Hag thrived when he was working with Overmars. A similar structure where ten Hag can focus on coaching rather than recruitment might be a welcome change for him and a weight lifted from his shoulders.
Click to expand...
I think what's becoming clearer and clearer is that it wasn't "his style", but rather "Ajax's style". I think he played a style of football that had been ingrained in that football club for eons and benefited from an absolutely incredible set of players (relative to that level -- they had Tadic, de Jong, de Ligt, Mazraoui and Ziyech all in one side, for instance).

I don't think it's near as easy as getting some competent guys in above him and saying "okay, play how you used to" - I'd wager that I don't think he can.
 

bosnian_red

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Plant0x84 said:
This is maybe the only post so far that has plumped for option 2, and you make an interesting point. I guess reading between the lines what I’m asking is do people want short term success for a small while or long term longer lived success?
Click to expand...
To be honest I think many people here have incredibly flawed expectations of what this summer will look like, given Ashworth and Wilcox are on gardening leave and our FFP situation is not great, and we have a lot of older players. There is no short term success, it's a fight for top 4 one way or the other.

The better question is which option leaves you better placed for seasons 25/26 and 26/27, because 24/25 likely won't be all that good. Is it better for our long term growth to have the right system next year, but leave summer 2025 with an enormous rebuild job, or do we start a big part of our player rebuild this summer and fix coaching summer 2025 (and doing normal transfer window things)?
 

Irwin99

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I'd go with option 2 and hope some stability is created with more physically gifted players who are capable of closing spaces on the pitch and pressing more quickly. Either sack EtH or commit to a long-term plan of building a side of players with the right profile.

Ditch some of the older players, rebuild around a core of the young players coming through/recently established such as Dalot, Hojlund, Garnacho, Onana, Martinez (if he can stay fit) and Mainoo.

Onana
Dalot New CB Martinez new LB
Mainoo new DM
Mount
Garnacho Hojlund new LW
​
Finding those new players who are technically and physically excellent and who, like Garnacho and Dalot, rarely get injured might be more of the problem :nervous: .

If anyone wants to fill in those positions with names of suitable players be my guest. Honestly, i'd like to see how this system could work.
 
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Smores

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DWelbz19 said:
I think what's becoming clearer and clearer is that it wasn't "his style", but rather "Ajax's style". I think he played a style of football that had been ingrained in that football club for eons and benefited from an absolutely incredible set of players (relative to that level -- they had Tadic, de Jong, de Ligt, Mazraoui and Ziyech all in one side, for instance).

I don't think it's near as easy as getting some competent guys in above him and saying "okay, play how you used to" - I'd wager that I don't think he can.
Click to expand...
Even If he could do we actually now think his Ajax tactics could work here week in week out? Might be great to take it to a big team and pull off a shock but I'm not convinced it can get consistent results.

Missing out on the champions league twice in a row would be too much so I'm Option 1. We still need to appear an exciting option for players and we're becoming less and less desirable as it is.
 

Beachryan

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It's worth emphasising how much squad trimming has been done, which should at least set us up well for the INEOS reign. Since ETH came in we've culled: Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Mata, De Gea, Telles, Tuanzebe, Fred, Garner, Elanga, Pereira, Bailly, Chong, Jones, and more or less gotten rid of Greenwood, Sancho, Williams, Martial and VdB. That's 21 players shifted in two seasons. And why our wage bill has dropped significantly.

So in theory if we could get more signings right with our spiffy new setup, we could actually be pretty well-placed. If.
 

Plant0x84

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romufc said:
I am so surprised that no one at the football club, the manager, hierarchy, coaches hasn't pulled Ten Hag aside and said.. this is not sustainable.
Click to expand...
I think a seasoned campaigner like McClaren would be key in this aspect. He isn’t going to sit by and let Erik run a mock. He’s also the coach with prior experience of the English game so I’m sure he’s in ten Hags ear when he feels it’s necessary.
 

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Plant0x84 said:
A hypothetical question inspired by TOTD podcast today.
So Erik is still in charge next season, you have 2 options

1) You get a different playing style and tactical plan - with the same players as the current squad

2) You get the same crazy chaotic style of football but with new younger players.

Obviously neither of these options is the ideal, but which compromise are you taking? Which option moves us forward and gets us closer to the league leaders?
Click to expand...
2 because at least we'll have a better squad when we sack him
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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Irwin99 said:
I'd go with option 2 and hope some stability is created with more physically gifted players who are capable of closing spaces on the pitch and pressing more quickly. Either sack EtH or commit to a long-term plan of building a side of players with the right profile.

Ditch some of the older players, rebuild around a core of the young players coming through/recently established such as Dalot, Hojlund, Garnacho, Onana, Martinez (if he can stay fit) and Mainoo.

Onana
Dalot New CB Martinez new LB
Mainoo new DM
Mount
Garnacho Hojlund new LW
​
Finding those new players who are technically and physically excellent and who, like Garnacho and Dalot, rarely get injured might be more of the problem :nervous: .

If anyone wants to fill in those positions with names of suitable players be my guest. Honestly, i'd like to see how this system could work.
Click to expand...
Personally think the best way to use Martinez going forward is as a LB/DM. He just doesn't defend wide spaces well enough for it to be sustainable even though he's a brilliant box defender and aggressor stepping up from the back.

But Diomande/Branthwaite/Todibo/Yoro are all great shouts for CB prospects. Onana seems like the obvious DM choice to sit behind Mainoo. Attack wise there are a bunch of ways you could go that make sense.
 

Irwin99

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Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Personally think the best way to use Martinez going forward is as a LB/DM. He just doesn't defend wide spaces well enough for it to be sustainable even though he's a brilliant box defender and aggressor stepping up from the back.

But Diomande/Branthwaite/Todibo/Yoro are all great shouts for CB prospects. Onana seems like the obvious DM choice to sit behind Mainoo. Attack wise there are a bunch of ways you could go that make sense.
Click to expand...
Not seen enough of Branthwaite but is he quick enough? I know he's a left-footed centre back and a big guy but that's about all i know of him :lol:

Another point i didn't mention is squad depth which, again, eats into the transfer kitty and means we simply can't solve everything in one window. Martial is leaving which means another striker is a must, arguably two centre backs are needed if two of Maguire, Lindelof, Varane and Evans leave. There are so many players that could realistically leave in the summer.
 

TheNewEra

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Plant0x84 said:
A hypothetical question inspired by TOTD podcast today.
So Erik is still in charge next season, you have 2 options

1) You get a different playing style and tactical plan - with the same players as the current squad

2) You get the same crazy chaotic style of football but with new younger players.

Obviously neither of these options is the ideal, but which compromise are you taking? Which option moves us forward and gets us closer to the league leaders?
Click to expand...
1. And this is not down to ETH it's down to footballing operations. Whatever is deemed long term success overrides any current footballing decision.
 

hobbers

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Getting a different style and tactical plan can only happen by getting a new manager. There is no possible way to "encourage" a coach to play a different brand of football outside of their own preferences.
 

saivet

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Option 2 may leave us with a better squad but ultimately I don't think these tactics will work in the short or longer term. I think even with peak Casemiro we'd be struggling. It's a near impossible job for the no.6 that we'd like require at least one, if not two freaks of nature to pull it off, which I think isn't viable. You get one of these players and you're fecked when they are unavailable. Put simply, I don't think it's sustainable in it's current iteration.
 
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