Arsenal 2023/24 - Have bottled the Champions League and are Bottling the League

Powderfinger

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This is why Arsenal fans rightly make sure to mention Edu as well when people are praising Arteta. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Arsenal are a club that is in complete sync from top to bottom. Yes Arteta has the personality to get players to buy in but as we've seen, an overhaul like that takes time and if he was at Chelsea, and probably even United (and Tottenham even?), he would probably have been sacked after his second season. The majority of Arsenal fans wanted him sacked. You have to credit Edu and the club for believing in the plan and sticking with it even when nobody else believed in it. I typically advocate for time for managers. My ideal situation is what Liverpool and Arsenal have. A long term manager that everyone believes in. Arteta does need to win for all this to be cemented but I'm pretty certain they will, sadly, if not this season then definitely in the next 2 seasons.

It might get laughed at now but the reason I wanted to give Potter time was because I'd seen how he had improved Brighton over 3 years and then I'd seen how Arteta had improved Arsenal over the same period and I had hoped if we just persevered through the adversity we could come through the other side in a great place. There's a pretty seismic difference between our board and their board though and for me, that ultimately doomed Potter, will likely also doom Poch.
I think this is pretty much dead accurate.

One additional thing about Arteta that doesn't get emphasized enough is that he was very honest with the fanbase, the players, and the club ownership from the beginning. In so many words, from the beginning he basically said that the club was a total mess that needed radical changes at every level. Even when we had good moments during his first year, like beating Liverpool in their title winning season, his post-match message was that we did well to match their hunger but were nowhere near their level and that nobody should expect those kinds of results to be repeatable. When he was asked during his lowest point during the fall of 2020 how many new starting players he would need to really implement his football, he said nine!

He always stressed that it was a long term job that needed to be done the right way and he never resorted to making cheap promises just to make supporters or ownership feel better or claimed that his team was better than his results and was being hard done.

I'm not saying that saved him from the sack. But I think on the margin it probably helped, just by bringing expectations closer to reality and because his brutal honesty probably helped build trust with Edu and the Kroenkes.
 

Bucephalus74

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Both deserved the credit they rightly deserved for rebuilding the team and also the cultural side of the dressing room. I don't understand how internal works in Arsenal but from the first couple episodes in the Amazon documentary, Josh had confidence in Arteta and backed him 100%. I don't know what Arteta did and convinced Josh he was the right man when the results were bad at the time. I am not sure if Edu is the man who has the authority to call the shot on the manager either at the time.
I don't know, but here's my guess. Josh got this one right, ironically by being an American. There's a thing they do in the NFL called "hiring from the coaching tree": you suck, so you hire the top assistant from the top team, and give him the players and the resources to try and recreate it. Josh wanted Pep-ball in North London, and despite some mis-steps that pushed things back (the Auba mega-contract, the ridiculous dalliance with Willian), he committed to the project and pushed through to see what the result would be. And now we're seeing it.
 
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CannonBalls

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I am not sure if I am comfortable hearing Arsenal is a well run club by fans of others teams. Its happening after so long that it makes me nervous...
 

ThierryHenry14

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I am not sure if I am comfortable hearing Arsenal is a well run club by fans of others teams. Its happening after so long that it makes me nervous...
If Arsenal lose tomorrow and draw in the weekend, Arsenal will be back to be a laughing stock. Relax.
 

GoonerBear

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I don't know, but here's my guess. Josh got this one right, ironically by being an American. There's a thing they do in the NFL called "hiring from the coaching tree": you suck, so you hire the top assistant from the top team, and give him the players and the resources to try and recreate it. Josh wanted Pep-ball in North London, and despite some mis-steps that pushed things back (the Auba mega-contract, the ridiculous dalliance with Willian), he committed to the project and pushed through to see what the result would be. And now we're seeing it.
Yep, people are rightly mentioning Edu, but the Kronkes (and Josh in particular) are just as important in this process.
Josh wanted the Arteta hire (talk is he wanted him as far back as when Emery was hired). He was Josh’s man, they backed him when the going was very tough with Arteta, they backed him with signings, especially during Covid seasons where they absorbed big losses, and they backed him and Edu making big decisions including the pay off of several players such as Ozil, Auba and Kolasniac to help change the cultivate a different culture in the dressing room.

It has been a team effort. I remember Rio saying a couple of years ago after he visited the training ground that he had a sense that everyone was pulling in the same direction, and this was a club that could take off. He could see it back then even though results were mixed.

I don’t even think we’ll win it this season. Looking at the fixtures, I think City will win every game, meaning we’ll have to win every game, which would basically mean a run of winning 17 out of 18 games 2nd half of the season. I don’t think we’ll manage that. I think Liverpool will drop further points in their run at the end of the season, away to Fulham, Everton, West Ham or Villa.
 

Gregawa

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I'm low key supporting Arsenal at the moment. Liverpool and Klopp can do one, and city will outdo us by getting 4 in a row (as hollow as it is).

I also grew up during the period where they were our biggest title rivals consistently and have to admit I'm a little nostalgic about it. Those Arsenal matches in the early 2000s were always amazing to watch. Maybe I'm just getting old.
 

Insanity

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They are the most in-form team in Europe and have the most momentum. They have an excellent defense, solid midfield and an attack that is firing. The only thing they lack is the experience of winning big trophies. I still think they'll overcome that hurdle and win the league. Won't be surprised if they do the double and win the Champions League too.
 

erikcred

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They are the most in-form team in Europe and have the most momentum. They have an excellent defense, solid midfield and an attack that is firing. The only thing they lack is the experience of winning big trophies. I still think they'll overcome that hurdle and win the league. Won't be surprised if they do the double and win the Champions League too.
I'd be surprised. And many Arsenal fans too. Their route to the CL final is brutal.
 

Insanity

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I'd be surprised. And many Arsenal fans too. Their route to the CL final is brutal.
Arsenal fans wouldn't admit it as they probably don't want to jinx it or become a laughing stock if they won't win it, but I am sure they can feel that this is their best chance to win the big prize in decades.

It's the CL knock-outs, the route is the same for everyone. On current form, Arsenal are as good as any team in Europe. In fact, they are playing the best football, imo. Plus, unlike Pep, who'd never abandon his principles, Arteta seems to flexible enough to park the bus if and when required.

I am not saying that they are favorites or anything, but they definitely are one of the top 3 contenders for the CL, imo.
 

footyfan019

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Next 4-5 games are brutal for us. It will be a mental test for the team. But this is where we always wanted to be, team should enjoy at where they are and take 1 game at a time. Last years experience might have taught them few lessons, they are still a very young team.
 

ThierryHenry

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Definitely not comfortable with all of this favourites/ disappointment talk. Opta have us at a 14% chance to win the CL, and a 21% chance to win the Prem. I've no idea if those numbers are accurate, but even if you gave us a 33% chance to win both (i.e. much much more likely than Opta), by far the most likely scenario is that we end the season trophyless.

And that's fine. Results based analysis in a game with a huge element of luck and chance, with excellent competitors, is stupid. We've still become one of the best teams in the world, an incredible achievement, and if we win one Prem and one CL in the next five seasons, most Arsenal fans would be ludicrously delighted. I now think we're set up to do something like that, and I don't think we have to judge success on winning trophies in individual seasons. And that's before we come on to 115 charges FC being the ones most in our way, and the considerations that that raises.

It's probably the best time in decades to be playing Bayern, the semi would be hard but that's about it. And they had a pretty easy RO16. It's anything but "brutal", come on.
I mean, it's clearly pretty hard, unless you're saying that City and Madrid are the only teams that present a tough match-up in the whole competition.
 

Rooney in Paris

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I mean, it's clearly pretty hard, unless you're saying that City and Madrid are the only teams that present a tough match-up in the whole competition.
They're the only ones I'd describe as "brutal", which is the post I was replying to. The RO16 was a pretty nice one that you guys made harder for yourselves and this round should be straightforward considering Bayern's current form. Yeah, the semi against City or Real will indeed be "brutal".
 

ThierryHenry

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They're the only ones I'd describe as "brutal", which is the post I was replying to. The RO16 was a pretty nice one that you guys made harder for yourselves and this round should be straightforward considering Bayern's current form. Yeah, the semi against City or Real will indeed be "brutal".
I agree, but that's a problem of the lack of depth at the top of European football these days. Seems pretty harsh to say Porto, Bayern, City/Madrid, PSG/ Barca/Atleti isn't a tough run to win a CL, given we've so far scraped past our first knockout win in 15 years. :lol:
 

Insanity

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It's probably the best time in decades to be playing Bayern, the semi would be hard but that's about it. And they had a pretty easy RO16. It's anything but "brutal", come on.
Of all the match-ups, I think they have the easiest QF match-up.
 

BarcaSpurs

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Yeah they'll win the double. Clearly the strongest team in Europe right now they'll demolish Bayern then play a City team that can't score against them then someone crap like Barca or Psg in the final that'll be a walkover. Can't see them dropping any points in the league too and they should be comfortable with the goal difference situation.
 

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Yeah they'll win the double. Clearly the strongest team in Europe right now they'll demolish Bayern then play a City team that can't score against them then someone crap like Barca or Psg in the final that'll be a walkover. Can't see them dropping any points in the league too and they should be comfortable with the goal difference situation.
Name gave it away.
 

awop

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It would also be great to win the last "real" edition before Bayern fix their issues and Madrid gets Mbappe :nervous:
 

erikcred

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Arsenal fans wouldn't admit it as they probably don't want to jinx it or become a laughing stock if they won't win it, but I am sure they can feel that this is their best chance to win the big prize in decades.

It's the CL knock-outs, the route is the same for everyone. On current form, Arsenal are as good as any team in Europe. In fact, they are playing the best football, imo. Plus, unlike Pep, who'd never abandon his principles, Arteta seems to flexible enough to park the bus if and when required.

I am not saying that they are favorites or anything, but they definitely are one of the top 3 contenders for the CL, imo.
Wtf is this?! :lol: Is this the first ever cup competition you've watched?

Last year, City's route to the final was Leipzig->Bayern->Madrid.
Inter's was Porto->Benfica->Milan.

In 2022, Madrid's route was PSG->Chelsea->City.
Liverpool's was Inter->Benfica->Villarreal.

Yes, the route is the same for everyone.
 

daveskimufc

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I'm low key supporting Arsenal at the moment. Liverpool and Klopp can do one, and city will outdo us by getting 4 in a row (as hollow as it is).

I also grew up during the period where they were our biggest title rivals consistently and have to admit I'm a little nostalgic about it. Those Arsenal matches in the early 2000s were always amazing to watch. Maybe I'm just getting old.
I'm from the same "time,"
all my mates at school were arsenal fans and for this reason I fecking hate them. I would rather city win it.
 

Ghirahim

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"Piers Morgan SLAMS Mikel Arteta & says he'd sack Arsenal boss for ex-Spurs manager Pochettino!"

I still remember when Arsenal fans wanted Arteta sacked.
 

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I agree, but that's a problem of the lack of depth at the top of European football these days. Seems pretty harsh to say Porto, Bayern, City/Madrid, PSG/ Barca/Atleti isn't a tough run to win a CL, given we've so far scraped past our first knockout win in 15 years. :lol:
Why does it seem pretty harsh? It's the reality of the current strength of those teams.

It's like saying Utd would be a hard team to face in Europe these days when we're shite, just because we've been a big European team in the past.
 

ThierryHenry14

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Definitely not comfortable with all of this favourites/ disappointment talk. Opta have us at a 14% chance to win the CL, and a 21% chance to win the Prem. I've no idea if those numbers are accurate, but even if you gave us a 33% chance to win both (i.e. much much more likely than Opta), by far the most likely scenario is that we end the season trophyless.
Very likely. Just enjoy the ride.
 

GoonerBear

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"Piers Morgan SLAMS Mikel Arteta & says he'd sack Arsenal boss for ex-Spurs manager Pochettino!"

I still remember when Arsenal fans wanted Arteta sacked.
Ah Piers Morgan, the blanket view of all Arsenal fans.

Could also say you remember when Arsenal fans wanted to sign Ronaldo from Utd last season if that’s the case.
 

Ghirahim

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Ah Piers Morgan, the blanket view of all Arsenal fans.

Could also say you remember when Arsenal fans wanted to sign Ronaldo from Utd last season if that’s the case.
Yeah Piers wanted Pochettino. I couldn't understand why everyone wanted Pochettino because I always thought he was massively overrated.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Ah Piers Morgan, the blanket view of all Arsenal fans.

Could also say you remember when Arsenal fans wanted to sign Ronaldo from Utd last season if that’s the case.
Piers Morgan is such an embarrassment. Not just to Arsenal fans but the human race
 

Irwin99

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Ah Piers Morgan, the blanket view of all Arsenal fans.

Could also say you remember when Arsenal fans wanted to sign Ronaldo from Utd last season if that’s the case.
To be fair, you had two or three seasons outside of the top 4 under Arteta and i seem to recall a lot of fans wanting him gone.

I went back and had a look at your first starting 11 under Arteta and it's a pretty remarkable squad change he and your board have undertaken. The patience and commitment shown has been incredible really.
 

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2-2 with Bayern. More worthwhile as a learning experience for this team than it is a help to us making the semis. We started well but my word did we underestimate Bayern - I heard a podcast where a fella was saying 'Bayern fans being banned gives us a great chance to put the tie to bed in the first leg'. What sort of game was he fantasising about? This isn't the best Bayern but their quality is shrouded by how good Leverkusen have been. They still have phenomenal talent and they ripped us apart on the break.

Bayern will be favourites now. Let's see how the team reacts.
 

ThierryHenry14

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2-2 with Bayern. More worthwhile as a learning experience for this team than it is a help to us making the semis. We started well but my word did we underestimate Bayern - I heard a podcast where a fella was saying 'Bayern fans being banned gives us a great chance to put the tie to bed in the first leg'. What sort of game was he fantasising about? This isn't the best Bayern but their quality is shrouded by how good Leverkusen have been. They still have phenomenal talent and they ripped us apart on the break.

Bayern will be favourites now. Let's see how the team reacts.
The result is fair. No complain.
 

Mogget

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2-2 with Bayern. More worthwhile as a learning experience for this team than it is a help to us making the semis. We started well but my word did we underestimate Bayern - I heard a podcast where a fella was saying 'Bayern fans being banned gives us a great chance to put the tie to bed in the first leg'. What sort of game was he fantasising about? This isn't the best Bayern but their quality is shrouded by how good Leverkusen have been. They still have phenomenal talent and they ripped us apart on the break.

Bayern will be favourites now. Let's see how the team reacts.
The way I've seen other Arsenal fans online talking about this game, and in general recently, makes me feel like I've been supporting a totally different Arsenal to them over the last 10 years.

I genuinely don't know where the overconfidence comes from.
 

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The way I've seen other Arsenal fans online talking about this game, and in general recently, makes me feel like I've been supporting a totally different Arsenal to them over the last 10 years.

I genuinely don't know where the overconfidence comes from.
Happens with all fanbases when their underachieving side gets close to achieving/does.
 

Captmfla

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Arsenal has the hardest remaining fixtures and the weakest team among the 3. They will choke once again with 95% certainty.
 

ThierryHenry14

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Arsenal has the hardest remaining fixtures and the weakest team among the 3. They will choke once again with 95% certainty.
If arsenal is the weakest team then why it is “choke" if not winning the league? Does United choke not winning the league and CL this season?
 

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Both teams didn't create much chances but the general play Arsenal looked like elite team and reduced Bayern to just a counter attacking one, who defends deep and transition quickly.

Looks like Arsenal will stay at the top 2-3 for years, they look complete team.
 

ArtetasHair

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We beat a better Bayern side I think 10 odd years ago 2 nil away after losing 3 1 at home.

However it'll be very hard. We seem as naive as City did early on in their CL campaigns. Our tactics were suicidal and showed a total lack of respect against Bayern. Camping with our DCs inside their half with the pace they have

They were like United on steroids on counters. And what I fear we will face at OT.

Saka also dived
Should have had a shot.
 

Mogget

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Happens with all fanbases when their underachieving side gets close to achieving/does.
Maybe I notice it more when it's Arsenal fans doing it but it does get annoying to read. It's possible to be confident and support your team without being delusional
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Maybe I notice it more when it's Arsenal fans doing it but it does get annoying to read. It's possible to be confident and support your team without being delusional
Arsenal fans not being delusional? I’d try another club if that’s what you’re after!
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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They're the only ones I'd describe as "brutal", which is the post I was replying to. The RO16 was a pretty nice one that you guys made harder for yourselves and this round should be straightforward considering Bayern's current form. Yeah, the semi against City or Real will indeed be "brutal".
Bit unfair on Bayern. They’ve not had as disastrous a season as it looks. Solid CL campaign and a good BL campaign. Leverkusen being Spectacular isn’t within their control. Their squad is still stacked with talent and they can still beat anyone on their day.