Ranking our Squad vs the Rest of the League

FrankWhite · Apr 20, 2024

There has been a lot of discussion surrounding our underperformance this season, with the blame potentially lying somewhere between the players and the manager. This made me ponder about the correlation between our expectations and our actual performance, which is a good indicator of how well the manager is doing. Naturally, there are other factors at play, such as the style of play.

Assessing the quality of our squad compared to the other 19 teams, I believe Arsenal, Manchester City, and Liverpool certainly have better squads than us. However, beyond that, it becomes more difficult to determine. In my opinion, a group of six teams including Aston Villa, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspur, Newcastle United, West Ham, and us, is quite evenly matched. I would argue that we possess better depth, but our starting eleven may not be as strong as most of the teams in this group.

What are your thoughts on where you believe we rank and the reasons behind your opinion.

DutchSerb · Apr 20, 2024

I'd put all of those teams above us right now until this team can prove otherwise. We are poorly coached and got some aging stars that make our squad look better on paper only because of their names. Sure Chelsea is a trainwreck too, but at least their football doesn't make my eyes bleed.

FrankWhite · Apr 20, 2024

DutchSerb said:
I'd put all of those teams above us right now until this team can prove otherwise. We are poorly coached and got some aging stars that make our squad look better on paper only because of their names. Sure Chelsea is a trainwreck too, but at least their football doesn't make my eyes bleed.

I get what you mean. Though this thread isnt necessarily about form or style of play. More about current ability vs that group. I agree with you by the way. Chelsea has a better squad than we do. Their issue is something else entirely.
Just watching them now. The reason they're able to go toe to against City unlike us, is because they have the players.

GameOn · Apr 20, 2024

The real tragedy is that over the past decade United have spent more money than any other club on the planet (yep, even more than Chelsea, City and PSG) and yet you look at the current squad and it's barely a top-7 squad in the PL.

AndySmith1990 · Apr 20, 2024

GameOn said:
The real tragedy is that in the past decade United have spent more money than any other club on the planet (yep, even more than Chelsea, City and PSG) and yet you look at the current squad and it's barely a top-7 squad in the PL.

You're confusing squad with team. We don't have a group of players that are 7th best in the league.

A squad of fairly average players can play brilliantly as a team. Title winning Leicester are the ultimate example of that. There are plenty more examples. Liverpool aren't exactly jam packed with world class players but they're still in a title race.

A squad of expensive internationals who've won medals can also play terribly. E.g United

It feels like coaching is massively underrated on this forum.

We look so poor because of Ten Hag, not because we have a squad full of wasters who aren't capable of playing football well

FrankWhite · Apr 20, 2024

AndySmith1990 said:
You're confusing squad with team. We don't have a group of players that are 7th best in the league.

A squad of fairly average players can play brilliantly as a team. Title winning Leicester are the ultimate example of that. There are plenty more examples. Liverpool aren't exactly jam packed with world class players but they're still in a title race.

A squad of expensive internationals who've won medals can also play terribly. E.g United

It feels like coaching is massively underrated on this forum.

We look so poor because of Ten Hag, not because we have a squad full of wasters who aren't capable of playing football well

interesting points. So you are of the believe that talent and ability isn't issue and it's mostly a coaching problem. So the question is, if you were to remove the coaching variable hypothetically, where would you expect us to rank?

Irwin99 · Apr 20, 2024

It's a top 4 challenging squad that can go either way, but it isn't, nor has it ever been since Sir Alex retired, a title challenging squad. Arsenal, Liverpool and City simply have better quality players.

It should be doing better but anyone thinking this squad gets 80+ points season in and season out is very wrong.

Leftback99 · Apr 20, 2024

It's around 6th best at best and that's due to spending £400m terribly and not improving it at all.

Pintu · Apr 20, 2024

City has the best squad by far. Arsenal and Pool follows. So these are obviously 3 clubs with better squads than us… Ours is 4th IMO, but it is closer to the followers(Chelsea, Spurs, N’Castle and Villa) than it is to Liverpool and Arsenal.

Red Royal · Apr 20, 2024

Pintu said:
City has the best squad by far. Arsenal and Pool follows. So these are obviously 3 clubs with better squads than us… Ours is 4th IMO, but it is closer to the followers(Chelsea, Spurs, N’Castle and Villa) than it is to Liverpool and Arsenal.

I wouldn't say we are 4th with the midfielders we have available even on the off chance we had no injuries.

RuudTom83 · Apr 20, 2024

Problem with comparing squads is you need to compare with the current players available.

Shaw/Martinez look good on paper. Varane and Casemiro have had great careers.

But the reality is grim when you look at the season 23/24 versions of those players.

Not many teams in the Top 10 would do a swap deal for any of those players, especially not at +250k a week wages each.

Pintu · Apr 20, 2024

Red Royal said:
I wouldn't say we are 4th with the midfielders we have available even on the off chance we had no injuries.

Bruno, Casemiro, Mainoo, Mount, Eriksen, Amrabat, McTominay… This may not be title challenging level but it is not inferior to our top 5 rivals.

AndySmith1990 · Apr 20, 2024

RuudTom83 said:
Problem with comparing squads is you need to compare with the current players available.

Shaw/Martinez look good on paper. Varane and Casemiro have had great careers.

But the reality is grim when you look at the season 23/24 versions of those players.

Not many teams in the Top 10 would do a swap deal for any of those players, especially not at +250k a week wages each.

The 23/24 versions are a part of a poorly coached team that is managed by a moron who sets us up to concede 20+ shots per game. The players cannot be judged accurately

FrankWhite · Apr 20, 2024

Red Royal said:
I wouldn't say we are 4th with the midfielders we have available even on the off chance we had no injuries.

Even looking at the attackers we have, westham for instance arguably have a better front 4 than us.

Red Royal · Apr 20, 2024

Pintu said:
Bruno, Casemiro, Mainoo, Mount, Eriksen, Amrabat, McTominay… This may not be title challenging level but it is not inferior to our top 5 rivals.

I am taking age into account (so Casemiro and Eriksen on decline plus Amrabat I think will be gone soon) it is where I think we need to prioritise our rebuild - just the eye test to me seems everyone we play against has a better midfield (not always a better defence or attack)

RuudTom83 · Apr 20, 2024

AndySmith1990 said:
The 23/24 versions are a part of a poorly coached team that is managed by a moron who sets us up to concede 20+ shots per game. The players cannot be judged accurately

The four players I mention can 100% be judged without hiding behind the manager.

2 of them have been missing all season.

Casemiro has fallen off a cliff performance wise, the eye test will tell you that.

Varane plays in a defence that sits deep, again no excuses.

But if you wish to give the players another clean slate then fair enough.

SirBillNic · Apr 20, 2024

I think a better measure of the level a team/squad is playing at is goal difference, rather than league table position. Now I think United's squad is approximately the same level as Spurs/Villa/Newcastle. So with a goal difference around 15-20 worse than those teams, I think it's a team that's underperforming, and that is down to the manager imho.

In terms of goals scored, United is 12th in the league behind Fulham and Brentford, and level with Bournemouth and Luton (?!). That HAS to be underachievement in attacking play. The attacking players are definitely above that level.

In terms of the level of players, I don't really think there's much in it between these four squads overall. If I were a neutral manager coming to the premier league and could pick the players of one team as a starting point, I'm not sure which one I'd go with. And I would throw Chelsea in there too - similar quality squad imo.

Earth Wind and McGuire · Apr 20, 2024

I’d say we sit around 6th in terms of the quality of the squad behind the obvious top three as well as Spurs and Chelsea. I believe Newcastle and Villa have slightly inferior squads but are managed far better.

The individual player quality in our squad on paper is relatively high, however, I would sell all but maybe 4 of them. It’s really hard to see where any of our players displace players from any of the squads I’ve mentioned above.

TheNewEra · Apr 21, 2024

Don't think we are as shit as people feel I think it's a mixture of the clubs structure and the players mentality.

Arsenal bought a few players and suddenly they are close to a title, we arent that far off.

amolbhatia50k · Apr 21, 2024

We are either 4th or 5th in terms of squad quality depending on how you judge us and Chelsea.

GoonerGirly · Apr 21, 2024

I think you're somewhere on the level of Spurs, Villa, Newcastle, Chelsea but your biggest issue IMO is your midfield. Injuries aside, the likes of Casemiro and Eriksen are done at this level. Amrabat was never an improvement on what you already had (and is a downgrade on Fred), even on loan. Mount and Bruno are probably too similar in terms of their overall strengths/weaknesses and Mount has hardly featured so hard to properly judge him. It is pretty damning IMO that your best midfielder is an 18 year old. Bruno is a good player but is best in transition and not the controlled possession style that modern football has become. Your negative goal difference speaks for itself and IMO that's largely down to your poor midfield options, which pretty much every team can drive a truck through. I'm not sure why ETH hasn't done more to address it and set up more compact, unless it is just beyond the players. Hard to believe that's the case.

MiceOnMeth · Apr 21, 2024

Ask again when a decent manager has us for 6 months

NICanRed · Apr 21, 2024

It always strikes me that our passing is way below the level of the other teams. I'm sure some of you will have access to the statistics that would prove or disprove my theory.
Is it possible to teach adults to pass or is that something that one learns as a younger player and if you don't have it as an adult you never will be truly competent. There are other factors like the ability to learn tactics and maintaining fitness that are important too but the inability to make a high percentage of passes must be a real factor in differentiating between success and failure.

bringbackbebe · Apr 21, 2024

We are a team in transition. I know people will quickly point out that we've been that way for a decade, and that's true and that's exactly why we should rate our "squad" from that lens. We've always had top squads (except from 2020-2022 with the best "squad" in 2014-15 season). As a team we've consistently failed. We are an example of 1+1 = 1.

FootballAI · Apr 21, 2024

GameOn said:
The real tragedy is that over the past decade United have spent more money than any other club on the planet (yep, even more than Chelsea, City and PSG) and yet you look at the current squad and it's barely a top-7 squad in the PL.

Top 7 squad we have not, if we look at the actual performance versus their names.

Ten Hag has been wasteful with money than the Pentagon. Frankly all of his expensive purchases would not make it to the starting line up in at least half of the EPL teams. There are only 4 players who might make it are Ganarcho, Mainoo, Bruno and Dalot; 2 are from our academy and the other 2 are older purchases. The other people that may count but rarely played are Shaw and Martinez.

didz · Apr 21, 2024

TheNewEra said:
Don't think we are as shit as people feel I think it's a mixture of the clubs structure and the players mentality.

Arsenal bought a few players and suddenly they are close to a title, we arent that far off.

They've signed 24 under Arteta not including loans.

Banana Republic · Apr 21, 2024

You can see how good our squad are, when you look at the lack of depth and strength on the subs bench, in most games.
Before you count the injuries we’ve had, we are threadbear, particularly in central midfield and up front.

When it comes to performances on the pitch, it’s not just the coaching that’s failing (which it clearly is).
We have accumulated a squad of players who mostly have the same failings or weaknesses when it comes to ability and desire in the physical combat part of the game.
A bunch of players that, apart from whatever their individual skills, lack the basic ability to fight for and win the ball, or to stop the opposition.
Even in the short periods when they try, they are just plain weak, both physically and mentally.
They are not “winners”.

.

JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo · Apr 21, 2024

In terms of talent we are 2nd or 3rd in the league in terms of mentality we are maybe 15th.

amolbhatia50k · Apr 21, 2024

JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
In terms of talent we are 2nd or 2rd in the league in terms of mentality we are maybe 15th.

How on earth are we 2nd? You think our squad is better than Liverpool or Arsenal’s?

JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo · Apr 21, 2024

amolbhatia50k said:
How on earth are we 2nd? You think our squad is better than Liverpool or Arsenal’s?

Absolutely. Talent wise.

Varane is a better defender than anyone in either squad, but is mentally fragile. Refuses to play through niggles.

Casemiro is laughably more talented than Declan Rice or Endo or anyone, but he has dropped off a cliff. He's given up.

Rashford is a 30 goal a year left winger and neither other squad has this. Breaks up with his missus and he's now a mess personally and professionally.

Fernandes has better stats over the past few years than Odegaard, McAllister, whoever. However he panics when things don't go his way and loses his positional discipline.

Arsenal have Saka, Liverpool have Salah and Alisson, but there's no one else in those squads more talented than what we have. But I would take the likes of Robertsons mentality any day of the week.

amolbhatia50k · Apr 21, 2024

JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
Absolutely. Talent wise.

Varane is a better defender than anyone in either squad, but is mentally fragile. Refuses to play through niggles.

Casemiro is laughably more talented than Declan Rice or Endo or anyone, but he has dropped off a cliff. He's given up.

Rashford is a 30 goal a year left winger and neither other squad has this. Breaks up with his missus and he's now a mess personally and professionally.

Fernandes has better stats over the past few years than Odegaard, McAllister, whoever. However he panics when things don't go his way and loses his positional discipline.

Arsenal have Saka, Liverpool have Salah and Alisson, but there's no one else in those squads more talented than what we have. But I would take the likes of Robertsons mentality any day of the week.

So if we had bunch of 50 year old greats we’d have a more talented squad than City’s. Yaay. Not sure how that’s relevant to this thread at all.

Rashford is not a 30 goals a year winger. He’s a 30 goala thar one year winger. Saka is miles ahead of him.

Feels like you’re not able to accept the lack of quality.

JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo · Apr 21, 2024

amolbhatia50k said:
So if we had bunch of 50 year old greats we’d have a more talented squad than City’s. Yaay. Not sure how that’s relevant to this thread at all.

Rashford is not a 30 goals a year winger. He’s a 30 goala thar one year winger. Saka is miles ahead of him.

Feels like you’re not able to accept the lack of quality.

I feel you have completely misunderstood my point.

Bwuk · Apr 21, 2024

In terms of talent we have a very good squad.

In terms of mentality and leadership, very poor.

Red Regista · Apr 22, 2024

Actually I think it's pretty tough to rate this squad.

Some players are easy to judge, because they are just not good enough, no matter the circumstances, then there is a plathora of players who looked good at their former club or even in periods at United under a different manager and only started to look bad for the last 1-2 seasons.

I think we have the third best squad in the PL on paper, but with so many players underperforming (for whatever reason), 6th or 7th place is probably right where we belong.

CloneMC16 · Apr 22, 2024

City, Liverpool, and Arsenal definitely have better squads than us.

Our squad should be able to compete with Villa and Spurs. This squad cant compete for a title, but it should compete for 4th. Nobody can convince me that Villa and Spurs have better individual players than us. They play better as a team and are managed better. Our setup is so bad and it makes individuals look worse than they actually are.

SecondFig · Apr 23, 2024

FrankWhite said:
I believe Arsenal, Manchester City, and Liverpool certainly have better squads than us. However, beyond that, it becomes more difficult to determine.

I'd agree with this. I think our squad (only on paper) is stronger than Spurs', Villa's or Newcastle's. But combination of coaching, tactics, and a toxic dressing room culture are seeing us punch well below our weight. We shouldn't be expecting to challenge for the league, we should expect to be right in the battle for top-4 (even if it's scraping 4th). As it is I'd argue we're massively underperforming

SecondFig · Apr 23, 2024

Red Regista said:
Actually I think it's pretty tough to rate this squad.

Some players are easy to judge, because they are just not good enough, no matter the circumstances, then there is a plathora of players who looked good at their former club or even in periods at United under a different manager and only started to look bad for the last 1-2 seasons.

I think we have the third best squad in the PL on paper, but with so many players underperforming (for whatever reason), 6th or 7th place is probably right where we belong.

Interested which of Liverpool, City or Arsenal you think we're stronger than (on paper of course)?

Red Regista · Apr 23, 2024

SecondFig said:
Interested which of Liverpool, City or Arsenal you think we're stronger than (on paper of course)?

City and Arsenal have better squads than us.
Pool's squad is not better, but Klopp is getting the best out of them, meanwhile our chumps are not interested or misused by Ten Hag.

iHicksy · Apr 23, 2024

GameOn said:
The real tragedy is that over the past decade United have spent more money than any other club on the planet (yep, even more than Chelsea, City and PSG) and yet you look at the current squad and it's barely a top-7 squad in the PL.

Chelsea spent 1 BILLION in the last two transfer windows alone. So i don't think that's true.

RoyH1 · Apr 24, 2024

We're third or fourth by my reckoning. Makes you really wonder how some of these players would perform with another manager and in a place with winning culture/structure in place.

Ranking our Squad vs the Rest of the League

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