2030 World Cup awarded to Spain, Portugal and Morocco

[Rood]

You're wrong. I'm pointing out how arbitrary and ill-defined the term "sportswashing" is, because if there's a country where the accusation of "sportswashing" can be applied given parallel traits, it's Morocco. Case in point:



Since when did the definition of "sportswashing" include being a wealthy nation? Is there a GDP per capita threshold that needs to be reached?

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/protesting-sports-washing-and-supporting-western-sahara

Yes it is always about wealthy nations/companies who spend money to 'wash' their image (can be sportswashing, greenwashing etc)

I actually think you have a point but TBH I'm not that interested in a discussion about what exactly sportswashing is, you should start a seperate thread if that's your priority

 

[D-o-m-i-n-i-k]

Well, a few hours ago I thought for sure that Valencia would be a stadium but it seems that now it is not among the candidates because of the Nuevo Mestalla issue.
There is going to be a fight between the cities to get the venue and I would bet that Valencia city council is going to get in the middle to make sure it gets built.

Thanks for this very interesting answer.

 

[adexkola]

I'll give arbitrary a shot and maybe try real world impact at a later time, because the intersection of sports and global politics is what drew me to follow this sport more closely.

On Arbitrary:

It's a tricky thing because once you invoke sportswashing, you are already in the realm of propaganda. It is a propaganda term use to counter state propaganda by means of sports. In the realm of propaganda, unlike say debate or academic discourse, you can disadvantage yourself or reduce your impact by limiting the scope and ambit of the "tools" at your disposal, in this case the seemingly ill-defined term. So it becomes one of those "you know it when you see it" things because it is a weapon in a dialectic rather than a precision instrument. You want to preserve and optimize the efficacy of your weapons, so to speak, so defining it in such a way as to blunt its force is not helpful.

It is arbitrary in the sense that is used by mostly western journalists and activists as a linguistic social cudgel to point out human rights abuses and enact change. But some of this may also be a matter of practicality and/or triage, if you will. Sure there may be some instances under some definitions where you could label a Morocco or a Rwanda as sportwashers, but why beat that drum to death? They are relatively small players in the global order, whereas your Saudi Arabias, Qatars (e.g. real estate in London) and Chinas a real players with real purchase in global realpolitik. So, if you are reading the deployment of the term charitably (primarily meaning setting aside any accusations of hypocrisy of said western journalists' own countries), what may come across as "arbitrary" might actually be a concerted, triaged effort by activists and journalists to target the worst, most-resourced abusers with the most global purchase. Succeed in these efforts and the rest of the global dominoes will fall into place in terms of aligning global norms and practices with some baseline notion of human rights.

At the end of the day, if activists or journalists see a highlight or reduction of human rights or other abuses as a result of the selective, focused deployment of the term, it should be a net win for them, no? Even if they have not defined the term with precision or deployed it with equal vigor in every instance to which it applies. Change takes targeted, concerted effort which, in the fog of a propaganda war, may come across as arbitrariness.

I just pulled this out of my arse, so hack away with pleasure.

This... is actually an excellent post. Considering where you pulled this from

And I find very little to disagree with here. I think the framework makes sense (I bolded some parts for emphasis):

1. I think a better term for "sportswashing" is "sports propaganda", which is a subset of propaganda, an activity that all competent states engage in. The former implies a weaponized nefarious intent at positively influencing opinions about said state (which there's little proof); the latter is more benign and incidental, which is easier for me to buy into.

2. I'm glad you agree that "sportswashing" as used commonly, fails on the precision front, because when you start to poke at the details and nuances it fails. As a conversation starter it works, however many treat it as a definite statement (X is sportswashing!!) and get touchy when one asks how/when/what/etc. Especially on here (hence the tagline )

3. No accusations of hypocrisy from me, I don't think there's any bad faith accusations from Amnesty International or other journalists reporting on these issues. The intent is good. And I think that for the average sports fan who has a very low attention span, "sportswashing" is more concise and may cause someone to ask more questions than "the interaction of sports and finance and geopolitics and human rights..."

4. There is a triage going on, agreed, in terms of nation selection and activity (sports here). I don't think the current triage is optimal. I do think it is biased (again, not in bad faith, we are all biased to a point, and this is a football forum). But I think that there is a better path of triage/focus that would maximize societal benefit. I think the pressure from activists is medicine for the corpse (the bad regime is locked in already). There is only so much activists can do, but a focused campaign on highlighting how entangled Western nations are with these nations in more substantial ways (finance/military/trade) would have a greater impact than the focus on sports, which is just the cherry on top. But if (and this remains to be seen) the current cudgel does have an impact, it is a net win. Unfortunately I don't think it worked in the Qatar WC.

 

[Rood]

Rabat - Morocco will dedicate six stadiums to host matches in the 2030 World Cup, President of the Royal Moroccan Football Federation (FRMF) Fouzi Lekjaa announced today.

“To date, we have identified six locations to host the 2030 World Cup, namely Rabat, Tangier, Marrakech, Agadir, Fez, in addition to the Grand Stadium of Casablanca, which will be built soon,” Lekjaa told radio station Mars.

The locations are also set to host matches in the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) 2025.

The FRMF chairman stressed that the country bid on the Casablanca Grand Stadium to host the final of the global tournament. Other sites are also currently under consideration with the final list to be announced soon.

Lekjaa also spoke about other competitions that Morocco is hosting in preparation for the World Cup, including the Women Africa Cup of Nations (WAFCON) 2024 and AFCON 2025.

There are also plans to host the FIFA Club World Cup in the new format featuring 32 teams in 2029, Lekjaa said.

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2023/10/358097/six-moroccan-stadiums-to-host-world-cup-2030-games

 

[JogaBonitoRooney]

Here's where you need to consider the difference between consistency of principle and whataboutery. The former is a fine quality and a standard you can reasonably hold people to, the other is a low trick, a strawman whereby you can undermine a point of principle without having to actually argue against it.

In this case, the practical difference between the two comes down to whether you're calling for more protest against J/K, SA, RUS, or if you're arguing against protest against Saudi Arabia because there wasn't enough protest vis-a-vis the others. It looks pretty clear to me where you are in that picture, so I'm calling bullshit on your consistency point. Your actual point is that HR record shouldn't affect these things. If you thought otherwise, you'd see a problem with Saudi Arabia regardless of what happened in previous cases. So why don't you just come out and argue that, instead of this consistency bullshit?

Oh, right. Well, same point applies.

Yes I was referring to adexkola's post asking if we should criticise Morocco for human and LGBT rights too. Haha nah same point does not apply. Maybe you're just saying that to look less silly.

Saudi Arabia and Morocco are very different. Even in the Islamic world Saudis are seen as the most strict and worst human rights. They also practice a stricter form of Islam, Wahhabism. Morocco is not Saudi. Morocco is right next to Spain and has been a friendly place to visit for Western tourists for a long time.

 

[Jacob]

The more countries it's hosted in. The more bribes you have. Simple.

 

[africanspur]

Not really because there are massive human rights issues in Saudi Arabia but not so much in Morocco

You don't think there are massive human rights issues in Morocco?

 

[Ragnar123]

The bribe rates must have increased, if one country alone isn't able to bribe them anymore, provided the money doesn't come out of the earth in liquid form.
I've already missed the last WC, just watched the final to see Messi's career being completed. Now I have zero reasons to continue watching this.

 

[Real Name]

So whichever team will have to fly to South America will be in disadvantage, same with SA teams flying to Europe.

Makes sense.

72 teams in 2034 I reckon.

 

[antohan]

My understanding is the Conmebol president was using the bidding process to garner support for hos own power play vs Infantino.

Cue Infantino making his own power play aka "you sods will waste a ton of money because I'll now make sure you don't get it".

Cue the bidding countries losing the will to do so and concocting this rubbish idea and announcing it as a negotiated agreement (notice they made the announcements initially, not FIFA).

Finally, Spain, Portugal and Morocco happy with guaranteeing it and Infantino with the absolute annihilation of his opponent. So FIFA make a statement endorsing it but "to be confirmed in 2024" (ergo, "play nice and we may yet pull the rug from under you"), clarifying it doesn't automatically qualify the three Conmebol countries, thus making it unclear which poor feckers will have the transatlantic flights.

Their statement rounds off stating how this ensures the history of the World Cup is appropriately celebrated with an opening game were it all started, the only legitimate virtue in the Conmebol bid. Some feckers will have to go play in Argentina and Paraguay as well, just because, probably Honduras vs Iran.

Personally, I'm delighted I will take my then teenage kids to a World Cup in Spain, Portugal and Morocco. Should be a blast. Also delighted we won't be saddled in debt overcommitting to something we can't afford. Always felt the right solution was having the Iberian bid and some sort of ceremony at the Centenario stadium.

 

[RoyH1]

Well, a few hours ago I thought for sure that Valencia would be a stadium but it seems that now it is not among the candidates because of the Nuevo Mestalla issue.
There is going to be a fight between the cities to get the venue and I would bet that Valencia city council is going to get in the middle to make sure it gets built.

I've read that Spain is going to pump in a lot of public money to upgrade stadium infrastructure. Wouldn't be surprised if Valencia would want to tap into that (or Barsa for that matter with their financial issues). Makes it easier to get your stadium financed and approved.

 

[Rood]

So this bid was on/off/on for a while due to political issues between Morocco and Spain (long history of disputed territory) - now it seems both are expecting to host the final so will be interesting to see how this gets resolved

 

[antohan]

So this bid was on/off/on for a while due to political issues between Morocco and Spain (long history of disputed territory) - now it seems both are expecting to host the final so will be interesting to see how this gets resolved

Simple, FIFA will hold it in Ceuta or Melilla and they can both claim to have hosted the final.

 

[RoyH1]

Maybe Saudi will have some competition after all?

https://www.reuters.com/sports/socc...with-australia-malaysia-singapore-2023-10-11/

 

[Moby]

More tourists. Ugh.

 

[Mike Smalling]

By 2030 I fully expect it to be too hot to play football in Spain, Portugal and Morocco during the summer months.

 

[Camara]

By 2030 I fully expect it to be too hot to play football in Spain, Portugal and Morocco during the summer months.

So only desert countries will be able to challenge us. Damn the Saudis thought of everything

 

[van der star]

By 2030 I fully expect it to be too hot to play football in Spain, Portugal and Morocco during the summer months.

Nevermind 2030, I'm in Morocco right now and it's hitting 35-37 degrees during the daytime and we're almost halfway through October, can't imagine how hot the summer months must have been.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

By 2030 I fully expect it to be too hot to play football in Spain, Portugal and Morocco during the summer months.

Should consider living somewhere better

 

[Rood]

Nevermind 2030, I'm in Morocco right now and it's hitting 35-37 degrees during the daytime and we're almost halfway through October, can't imagine how hot the summer months must have been.

I assume you are in Marrakech?
The coastal cities where most games are planned are much cooler

Plus that's the peak heat of the day which is just a few hours, morning and evening kick offs should be ok

Even the next World Cup in USA/Mexico is likely to have some crazy temperatures

 

[MrMarcello]

Oh it will be hot and humid as feck in 2026 Mexico and USA. But some venues will probably be under retractable roofs in Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston, with the Final rumored to be either Dallas or Meadowlands as the host venue. But Mexico City in July with that altitude and smog, ugh. No clue how it will feel in Canada, guess hot but no/little humidity.

 

[Globule]

Nevermind 2030, I'm in Morocco right now and it's hitting 35-37 degrees during the daytime and we're almost halfway through October, can't imagine how hot the summer months must have been.

I'm in Marrakech right now too and yeah, I wouldn't fancy playing football in this heat.

 

[Cal?]

They were in a joint bid with Paraguay, Chile and Argentina.

I doubt there are many countries that could host the 48 team format alone.

Plenty can do it: USA, England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan can all do it with little to no new stadiums.

 

[Cal?]

Did you call Japan / Korea, South Africa, Russia sporting washing projects too for LGBT and human rights because they are no angels in those areas either or do we only target Islamic countries?

Back on topic this 2030 setup isn't too bad but ideally it should only be Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay on its own or Spain, Portugal, Morocco on their own. They're all in the same geo location smaller than the size of Brazil. The whole first 3 games in SA is weird and it might stop SA from getting a proper world cup in the near future. This WC is mainly just Spain, Portugal, Morocco. I don't believe they'll be much complaints when it's 2030.

Japan is very LGBT friendly, the only thing they're lagging behind is same-sex marriage.

 

[Cal?]

By 2030 I fully expect it to be too hot to play football in Spain, Portugal and Morocco during the summer months.

Another winter World Cup!!!

 

[Cal?]

Maybe Saudi will have some competition after all?

https://www.reuters.com/sports/socc...with-australia-malaysia-singapore-2023-10-11/

Australia would be perfectly fine.

Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia? They'd be lucky to keep their goal difference to -12 in the 3 games.

 

[simonhch]

When will England next get the World Cup? Never done it in my life time, yet during that lifetime, assuming I live until 2026, there will have been two in the USA, two in Mexico…..I know we rotate continents etc., but it’s ridiculous we’ve had world cups in Russia, Qatar, probably Saudi Arabia - nations with either terrible human rights, or preposterous climates for football, or little footballing culture, or all three, before the tournament comes back to England. The country that invented the fecking game. I think we lost out on our last bid to Qatar. The most corrupt, ill suited bidding process and award ever.

At least we get the Euros again in 2028.

 

[Rood]

When will England next get the World Cup? Never done it in my life time, yet during that lifetime, assuming I live until 2026, there will have been two in the USA, two in Mexico…..I know we rotate continents etc., but it’s ridiculous we’ve had world cups in Russia, Qatar, probably Saudi Arabia - nations with either terrible human rights, or preposterous climates for football, or little footballing culture, or all three, before the tournament comes back to England. The country that invented the fecking game. I think we lost out on our last bid to Qatar. The most corrupt, ill suited bidding process and award ever.

At least we get the Euros again in 2028.

We never lost out to Qatar as England mostly only competes with other UEFA nations - we lost recently to Germany (mostly due to our fans acting like twats abroad) and once to Russia (a poor bid which got the least votes of 4 options). Before that we were beaten by French (but we got Euro96 instead) and Italian bids in the 90s.

 

[Alex99]

Plenty can do it: USA, England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan can all do it with little to no new stadiums.

That's hardly many, especially when you consider the rules around hosting in the same continent within two cycles.

Hosts need to have fourteen all-seater stadiums with a minimum capacity of 40,000, and at least seven of those have to already exist. Two of the stadiums need to be at least 60,000 capacity to host the semi-final, and one needs to be at least 80,000 to host the opening game and final. It's not even so much the stadiums, but the training facilities. Hosts need to have 72 training facilities with at least four available per stadium.

Your assessment of the countries that "can do it all with little to no new stadiums" is being very generous.

England has 13 stadiums of over 40,000 capacity, and six of them are in London (and one of them is a rugby stadium). Assuming they wouldn't want to just host half the tournament in London (or if they'd even be allowed to), you're looking at building or seriously upgrading at least four stadiums, if not more when you consider the state of some of them.

Spain only has 10 stadiums of over 40,000 capacity. France only has seven. Italy only has six. I can't speak for the standard of the facilities at these stadiums and would imagine at least some upgrades would be needed to just the existing.

Japan and Germany just about squeak in, but again, I can't speak for the standard of facilities.

There simply aren't that many countries with the capacity to host a 48 team world cup alone. Joint bids are going to be standard going forward, unless you have a massive country (and even then the US went for a joint bid), or a country like Saudi that will just throw loads of money at it.

This also ignores all of the other infrastructure that would be needed (e.g. training facilities, accommodation for teams, officials and fans, transport networks, etc.).

I actually don't know what the deal will be regarding this supposed Saudi bid for 2034. I can only assume they're allowing them to include the yet to be upgraded/built stadiums included in their hosting of the AFC Asian Cup in 2027 as their "existing" stadiums, because they currently only have two that meet the minimum 40,000 criteria.

FIFA have set out their stall now of allowing at least six automatic qualifiers, not even from the same side of the globe. I fully expect a number of daft multi-nation bids going forward, with FIFA eventually expanding the tournament further to allow 64 teams.

 

[Cal?]

That's hardly many, especially when you consider the rules around hosting in the same continent within two cycles.

Hosts need to have fourteen all-seater stadiums with a minimum capacity of 40,000, and at least seven of those have to already exist. Two of the stadiums need to be at least 60,000 capacity to host the semi-final, and one needs to be at least 80,000 to host the opening game and final. It's not even so much the stadiums, but the training facilities. Hosts need to have 72 training facilities with at least four available per stadium.

Your assessment of the countries that "can do it all with little to no new stadiums" is being very generous.

England has 13 stadiums of over 40,000 capacity, and six of them are in London (and one of them is a rugby stadium). Assuming they wouldn't want to just host half the tournament in London (or if they'd even be allowed to), you're looking at building or seriously upgrading at least four stadiums, if not more when you consider the state of some of them.

Spain only has 10 stadiums of over 40,000 capacity. France only has seven. Italy only has six. I can't speak for the standard of the facilities at these stadiums and would imagine at least some upgrades would be needed to just the existing.

Japan and Germany just about squeak in, but again, I can't speak for the standard of facilities.

There simply aren't that many countries with the capacity to host a 48 team world cup alone. Joint bids are going to be standard going forward, unless you have a massive country (and even then the US went for a joint bid), or a country like Saudi that will just throw loads of money at it.

This also ignores all of the other infrastructure that would be needed (e.g. training facilities, accommodation for teams, officials and fans, transport networks, etc.).

I actually don't know what the deal will be regarding this supposed Saudi bid for 2034. I can only assume they're allowing them to include the yet to be upgraded/built stadiums included in their hosting of the AFC Asian Cup in 2027 as their "existing" stadiums, because they currently only have two that meet the minimum 40,000 criteria.

FIFA have set out their stall now of allowing at least six automatic qualifiers, not even from the same side of the globe. I fully expect a number of daft multi-nation bids going forward, with FIFA eventually expanding the tournament further to allow 64 teams.

Ok, I didn't realize so many stadiums in Europe are in the mid-30k range, but it wouldn't be far-fetched to upgrade some of those to 40k.

USA went for a joint bid as it makes it easier to win, otherwise they could host 7 concurrent World Cups with the 14 stadiums over 40k capacity requirement or just use all 14 with over 80k capacity.

Joint bids are the way forward because Fifa wants to receive bribes from as many countries as possible.

Anyway, according to their own rules, Saudi cannot host 2034, it's between Japan & China, but we all know Fifa will somehow find a way to bend their own rules.

64 makes sense, the tournament won't be any longer and and group stage will be cleaner (without the 3rd placed team fixed final match issue).

 

[Alex99]

Ok, I didn't realize so many stadiums in Europe are in the mid-30k range, but it wouldn't be far-fetched to upgrade some of those to 40k.

USA went for a joint bid as it makes it easier to win, otherwise they could host 7 concurrent World Cups with the 14 stadiums over 40k capacity requirement or just use all 14 with over 80k capacity.

Joint bids are the way forward because Fifa wants to receive bribes from as many countries as possible.

Anyway, according to their own rules, Saudi cannot host 2034, it's between Japan & China, but we all know Fifa will somehow find a way to bend their own rules.

64 makes sense, the tournament won't be any longer and and group stage will be cleaner (without the 3rd placed team fixed final match issue).

There's less than three weeks before bids have to be confirmed for 2034

Currently, the only confirmed bid is Saudi Arabia. China have also expressed interest, but an Australia/New Zealand joint bid seems the strongest contender from what I've read, but they need to confirm and have doubts over getting the stadiums up to scratch

The other potential bids are Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan, Indonesia/Australia/Malaysia/Singapore, and some combination of the ASEAN nations (Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam).

Japan haven't expressed interest at all, from what I've seen.

 

[2cents]

There's less than three weeks before bids have to be confirmed for 2034

Currently, the only confirmed bid is Saudi Arabia. China have also expressed interest, but an Australia/New Zealand joint bid seems the strongest contender from what I've read, but they need to confirm and have doubts over getting the stadiums up to scratch

The other potential bids are Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan, Indonesia/Australia/Malaysia/Singapore, and some combination of the ASEAN nations (Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam).

Japan haven't expressed interest at all, from what I've seen.

Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan all the way.

 

[Alex99]

Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan all the way.

Given 2030 has six hosts, I say just give it to the ASEAN lot and have it over 10.

 

[lex talionis]

Oh it will be hot and humid as feck in 2026 Mexico and USA. But some venues will probably be under retractable roofs in Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston, with the Final rumored to be either Dallas or Meadowlands as the host venue. But Mexico City in July with that altitude and smog, ugh. No clue how it will feel in Canada, guess hot but no/little humidity.

Eastern Canada can get hot and humid in the summer, but western Canada will have fantastic weather absent a freak heatwave like the one from a years ago. But most of the US 5-10 miles east of right along the Pacific Coast is unbearable in the summer.

 

[RoyH1]

Oh it will be hot and humid as feck in 2026 Mexico and USA. But some venues will probably be under retractable roofs in Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston, with the Final rumored to be either Dallas or Meadowlands as the host venue. But Mexico City in July with that altitude and smog, ugh. No clue how it will feel in Canada, guess hot but no/little humidity.

Mexico City in July is actually very pleasant (thanks to the altitude) with high temperatures around the 26, 27 degrees. Much more pleasant than anywhere in southern Europe to be sure. Altitude will be hard for most, and the smog while bad, is much worse in the winter months. It's all a question of being there in good time and getting climatized.
Monterrey on the other hand is pretty hot so I hope they only play evening games there. Lovely stadium though.

 

[Cal?]

There's less than three weeks before bids have to be confirmed for 2034

Currently, the only confirmed bid is Saudi Arabia. China have also expressed interest, but an Australia/New Zealand joint bid seems the strongest contender from what I've read, but they need to confirm and have doubts over getting the stadiums up to scratch

The other potential bids are Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan, Indonesia/Australia/Malaysia/Singapore, and some combination of the ASEAN nations (Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam).

Japan haven't expressed interest at all, from what I've seen.

Australia/New Zealand would be great, but I doubt they'd be willing to bribe as much as the rest.

ASEAN or Saudi will end up another winter WC.

 

[Rood]

The biggest issue with Oz/NZ is difficult timezones for TV - was a problem for FIFA selling TV rights for the Women's WC and that's obviously their main revenue generator

Still I'd be happy for that region to get a World Cup

 

[RoyH1]

Australia/New Zealand would be great, but I doubt they'd be willing to bribe as much as the rest.

ASEAN or Saudi will end up another winter WC.

Not to mention that FIFA Vip's wouldn't get their cherished police escorts.

 

[Cal?]

The biggest issue with Oz/NZ is difficult timezones for TV - was a problem for FIFA selling TV rights for the Women's WC and that's obviously their main revenue generator

Still I'd be happy for that region to get a World Cup

That's true, would be even worse than Japorea 2002, but then again, not so different from ASEAN or China.

 

[Alex99]

Australia/New Zealand would be great, but I doubt they'd be willing to bribe as much as the rest.

ASEAN or Saudi will end up another winter WC.

Part of the Qatar bid's success was supposed to be based on assurances that the tournament could still take place in the summer, with air conditioned stadiums, etc.

Ship's sailed on winter world cups now. They'll keep happening.