It is another formation thread. But lets talk about why we should or shouldn't play with this formation. The reason why I think we need to play with this formation is that our LB and RB are either good/acceptable defensively or attacking wise. No one of them is good both defensively and in attack. The other reason I chose 3-4-3 is because we have many wingers and this style would suit them more. Ralf talked yesterday about playing 3 at the back and I hope he tries this formation from the first minute instead of changing to it in the middle of the game.
3-4-3
- Thread starter Giggsyking
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But we have not enough CB to play in 3-4-3 formation consistently.
Bailly and Jones cannot play week in week out and we have 3 CB left for this formation. If Shaw move to LCB and we have not enough LWB.
We have not enough energy to play 4-2-2-2 to get pressing every minutes when we need
We have not enought DM (in ability) to play 4-3-3 to cover our third when 2 CM go forward.
Sadly, we left at least one or two decent and injury free players for every formation.
Bailly and Jones cannot play week in week out and we have 3 CB left for this formation. If Shaw move to LCB and we have not enough LWB.
We have not enough energy to play 4-2-2-2 to get pressing every minutes when we need
We have not enought DM (in ability) to play 4-3-3 to cover our third when 2 CM go forward.
Sadly, we left at least one or two decent and injury free players for every formation.
When Baily is back, we will have one CB as backup, we should try this while Jones is our CB backup. Telles can play LWB while Shaw play LCB if we have a crisis in CB position. The only downside is Bruno not playing, but we can change to 3-5-2 in this case to play Bruno.
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All of our attackers have struggled with the inside roles this season. 3-4-3 is another formation where you have 2 players in behind the striker. We also dont have much end product from our fullbacks this season so moving them into the side midfield roles might see that exposed, the other side of the coin is we could trust 2 wingers who will work up the sides to help out a bit defensively. Judging from their pressing stats that would be Lingard and Sancho as the options
I dont believe this is a better way to use the players we have
I dont believe this is a better way to use the players we have
It will be a disaster, you want a two man midfield of mcfred, ralf will not embark on this suicide mission.
We should understand that any formation without a sound midfield will turn into a caricature, simply put in £45m for bissouma or £40m for nevez, let them sort out that ineffective central midfield.
Bissouma/Nevez plus Fred in a double pivot in 4231 with bruno sitting on top of them will serve us well till season end.
We should understand that any formation without a sound midfield will turn into a caricature, simply put in £45m for bissouma or £40m for nevez, let them sort out that ineffective central midfield.
Bissouma/Nevez plus Fred in a double pivot in 4231 with bruno sitting on top of them will serve us well till season end.
Formations are not a problem, we have seen the 4-2-3-1, the 4-2-2, 3-4-3 and what not, but when players are not trying, players not passing the ball then you it does not matter what formation you play.
Why is it that formations are talked about most when teams are losing?
Why is it that formations are talked about most when teams are losing?
They tried to pass the ball, but 5 yards+ passing were missed all the time.
No matter short pass, long pass, 1-2 pass or face to face pass....
Nothing to do for the manager/formation when a professional player cannot pass the ball....
Probably because we look like a lost team that doesn't actually know what they are doing.
I don't think that playing 2 strikers with poor hold up ability is helping either. Ronaldo worked well with Benzema because he held the ball up brilliantly and had the quick feet/mind to play him through in tight areas.
Cavani can't do that. They are both goal poachers who rely on movement in the box, but they aren't getting the service.
IMO we need to either go 3-5-2 and have Bruno behind the 2 strikers with Shaw and Dalot as wing backs, or drop 1 of the strikers and go back to 4-2-3-1.
We will look bad in any formation until players start playing better. Even if we go back to the 4-2-3-1, Ronaldo isn't going to hold the ball up, Bruno is so off form, he can't even create anything anymore.
I don't actually know how we get out of this. I have read and watched alot of fan channels call for Maguire and McT should be dropped but they won't say Bruno should be dropped, who's been just as bad.
Only DDG is in form at the moment, which is the biggest worry.
We don’t have 2 good centre backs never mind 3
Same as any other formation, CMs not good enough on the ball, right backs not good enough at all.
Bruno did get dropped and we looked even worse. The moment he came onto the pitch we looked lively again.
As you say unfortunately it seems that way when practically everybody is off form. Who right now in our team is actually playing up to their usual standard? only DDG.
We used to scrape through matches with Bruno, Pogba or Rashford coming up clutch with a goal or an assist. Martial used to earn penalties and held the ball up well when in the mood.
Suddenly we don't have any of that. Sancho is still adjusting, Ronaldo is a downgrade in terms of hold up play and workrate, you could say a better finisher but even he's been missing some golden chances.
Perhaps its a lack of confidence, pressure getting to them? it's hard to say exactly.
There are a lot of reasons it won't work.
First of all, we only have 1 decent ball playing CB and he's injured. Our other decent CB is new to the league and injured as well.
Our CM's are wank at moving the ball, in any direction. With this formation, our wingbacks would need to be Telles and Dalot, as they're the only wingbacks that can move the ball and, most importantly, cross to save their lives.
First of all, we only have 1 decent ball playing CB and he's injured. Our other decent CB is new to the league and injured as well.
Our CM's are wank at moving the ball, in any direction. With this formation, our wingbacks would need to be Telles and Dalot, as they're the only wingbacks that can move the ball and, most importantly, cross to save their lives.
It really doesn't matter what formation we play and we have played a lot of them this year, if the players don't gel, can't pass to each other regularly, no one on the pitch to rally them, take no notice of tactics anyway then there is no formation that's going to make it work.
Exactly, nothing to do until new bloods to join in or the players suddenly wake up.
I mean we looked just as bad without Bruno as we did with him, remember Newcastle game?
Bruno is that kind of player when he is on the bench, he does come on and try, we have seen it in many games, its almost as if he doesn't like being benched. So if we can bench him in a few games, he strikes me as the player that will be motivated.
Rashford was dropped for Burnley, came on against wolves and nothing changed.
I 100% agree that alot of these players cannot play under pressure.
I think it could work with Telles and Dalot as the wing backs, and Shaw as a LCB.
I don't think the formation makes a jot of difference.
We've seen 4231,442,352,433 and it's been the same sort of abject performances with poor teamwork and passing.
Teams needs a whole new spine of players capable of leading and commanding the players on the pitch. Until that happens we'll see these gowls continue to show up and play when and how they feel like.
We've seen 4231,442,352,433 and it's been the same sort of abject performances with poor teamwork and passing.
Teams needs a whole new spine of players capable of leading and commanding the players on the pitch. Until that happens we'll see these gowls continue to show up and play when and how they feel like.
I agree- it's an issue with the players that we need to resolve. A lot gets said about the problems we have in midfield and I don't think anyone disputes this, but the best teams don't just control the game because of their midfielders, the full backs and attacking players all play a critical role in how they control games.
The only thing I can think with the formation is that if you did go with more defenders and make it harder to breakdown then maybe we give ourselves a chance to nick a goal based on a moment of quality however this can't be the right way forward.
I personally think that we do have enough quality in the squad to compete for top 4 this season, but the players have to be willing to change and we have to think more about balance for example I don't think we can really accommodate Rashford, Ronaldo and Bruno in one team. They are too selfish in how they play and prone to losing the ball. We need to decide of our best players who do we want to use and then build a team from there that provides balance- the formation will come out of that.
I agree. We may have to go with a 5 back just to be more solid and build something then when we get some confidence change formation.
I don't think we can accomodate Rashford and Ronaldo either, although, I do not think Bruno is that selfish, he is our best creator. Its when we start Greenwood, Ronaldo, Rashford which does't help.
I still think out best lineup includes Sancho, Greenwood and Bruno.
It literally doesn't matter, none of our players will bother doing the hard work anyway. Until 5 or 6 players are gone from our lineup and replaced then it won't work
I think 3-4-3 could work if we try to do it more like Tuchel does.
The wingbacks are more attacking players than defensive players, he sometimes uses Ziyech and Hudson-Odoi there who are really midfielders. He even tried Pulisic there against lower placed teams. Against better teams he uses more natural wingbacks.
For the attacking players it’s easier to press with three attackers. And we have a lot of wingers.
For our centre backs it will be better to play with three because with two they are just not good enough, with three they can cover more ground. Obviously we need another central defender if we would play with three. Maybe Matic and McTominay can play there for now but we really need some good defenders. If we get the build up play better and faster it will benefit the whole team and structure we play.
The wingbacks are more attacking players than defensive players, he sometimes uses Ziyech and Hudson-Odoi there who are really midfielders. He even tried Pulisic there against lower placed teams. Against better teams he uses more natural wingbacks.
For the attacking players it’s easier to press with three attackers. And we have a lot of wingers.
For our centre backs it will be better to play with three because with two they are just not good enough, with three they can cover more ground. Obviously we need another central defender if we would play with three. Maybe Matic and McTominay can play there for now but we really need some good defenders. If we get the build up play better and faster it will benefit the whole team and structure we play.
People still thinking a change to formation is going to have any impact on our performances 
People do it on video games and it works for them so they think they can do it in real life as wellPeople still thinking a change to formation is going to have any impact on our performances
Yeah I think with Bruno he is someone who is more prone to losing the ball. Some of that is for the right reasons but some of it, I think, errs on the side of being a pass that wasn't worth the risk but overall I agree he should be in the team.
I agree with you that I think our best team includes those three plus Ronaldo. Sancho tends to be more risk adverse in how he plays (although he does need to up his game still) which counters the others to an extent and I don't think Greenwood often gives the ball away cheaply however I think if you have Greenwood then you need he and Bruno to make better decisions between them. Ronaldo is who he is and is going to try and score himself first, which I think is fine but between Greenwood and Bruno they need to then balance that. Personally I think that's more with Bruno as the more experienced player. If we could get Bruno to play a bit deeper to strengthen the middle and be more sensible with his passing and Sancho/Greenwood working hard on the flanks then I think that is a much more balanced team.
That's because we keep playing him wide. Bruno's stats have fallen off since Rangnick stopped playing 4-2-3-1 and went 4-2-2-2 and stuck him into a wider area.
He's now essentially playing as a cross machine which is a complete waste of his talent.
Just like benching Shaw, benching Bruno will only be a detriment to the team IMO.
Yep, if we are playing well, I don't think Bruno will be losing the ball as much as he does. If we develop a fluid system and the attackers are balanced, he will find players that make runs.
I don't mind Bruno giving away the ball if he is finding an opening but, he needs to learn to keep the ball when we are under pressure so we can keep the ball and control the game.
I understand Sancho needs to step up, I do feel he has looked like our best winger, he is the only one who actually helps out defensively too.
I do think the formation can have a big impact on how the team plays, although you can't blame our players being unable to make 5 yard passes on formation misplaced passes are more likely to happen in an uncomfortable / unfamiliar formation because the players won't know where others are supposed to be. In the case of the 4222 it has either been very narrow forcing our players to play very intricate football (which they can't do) or (in the last couple of games) it has left us outnumbered in the centre of midfield meaning passing options were limited for our midfielders.
Agree on the balance of the team - personally I would bench ronaldo because this enables us to play with just one centre forward in a 4231 or 433. I would bring bruno back but ask him to play a bit deeper than he often did under ole
If it was 3-4-3 then you need wide midfielders, not wing-backs. Now I like the look of this in the sense that we have multiple creative outlets. Sancho and Telles have the best delivery from wide areas and would stretch play. Bruno in a central role has three forwards to find. Bruno as a CM may seem bold but that's what three center-backs are for.
One of our big problems is that Greenwood and Rashford are goal scorers and don't create much for Ronaldo. Having Sancho and Telles in wide areas should provide some service. Bruno can be looking for the runs of Greenwood and Rashford in behind.
Surely it would be something like this:
De Gea
Varane
Maguire
Lindelof
Sancho
Bruno
Fred
Telles
Greenwood
Ronaldo
Rashford
2nd XI - Obviously this team would never play but it shows the options and backups that we would have.
Henderson
Bailly
Jones
Shaw
Dalot
McTominay
Pogba/Van De Beek
Lingard
Amad
Cavani
Elanga
One of our big problems is that Greenwood and Rashford are goal scorers and don't create much for Ronaldo. Having Sancho and Telles in wide areas should provide some service. Bruno can be looking for the runs of Greenwood and Rashford in behind.
Surely it would be something like this:
De Gea
Varane
Maguire
Lindelof
Sancho
Bruno
Fred
Telles
Greenwood
Ronaldo
Rashford
2nd XI - Obviously this team would never play but it shows the options and backups that we would have.
Henderson
Bailly
Jones
Shaw
Dalot
McTominay
Pogba/Van De Beek
Lingard
Amad
Cavani
Elanga
Yes let’s pay £45m for an alleged sex offender, sure what could go wrong?
You cannot play inverted forwards with a striker than has no hold up or passing ability due to the problems it causes us with Interlinking our attack.
Until we actually start playing with some commitment I don't think it makes any difference.
A manager usually has principles, a way of playing - many are quite happy to change a formation occasionally. Of course it can have an impact or they wouldn't do it, but they wouldn't expect it to work without instilling the foundations. It's more like rearranging deck chairs.
RR needs to find a structure that gets these guys buying in. The job is that simple at the moment. That's the starting point. People playing the way they did in the first game against Palace. Everything has tailed off.
A manager usually has principles, a way of playing - many are quite happy to change a formation occasionally. Of course it can have an impact or they wouldn't do it, but they wouldn't expect it to work without instilling the foundations. It's more like rearranging deck chairs.
RR needs to find a structure that gets these guys buying in. The job is that simple at the moment. That's the starting point. People playing the way they did in the first game against Palace. Everything has tailed off.
I think it's fair to say that formations have an impact, as you say I don't think the 4222 has helped as it doesn't address that we don't retain or recover the ball well. I think though that you have to start with the players and how to get the best out of them and then build a formation around that (unless you're going to buy new players!).
Agree would play Bruno deeper as well, I'd have him as a 3rd midfielder who is allowed to push on rather than an out and out 2nd striker which he sometimes feels like. Part of that is tactical e.g. asking him to start deeper but a lot of it is in how he plays, e.g. trying to take more care with the ball/wait for the right moment. Similarly you can 'put' Rashford on the wing however unless he's prepared to track back/be a creative outlet you need to find a way to make sure that doesn't unbalance the team.
Probably better to ask who a 3-4-3 would suit from the current players.
Maguire for definite, Bruno probably as well.
But the downsides are very high. None of our players are good at wing back, let alone having one both sides.
We can barely keep centre backs in form and fit, who would the 3 be?
Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood are much better wide, so none fit into this system.
Ronaldo probably works better with 5 around him working hard and serving him.
McFred we've seen are only effective in certain games, certainly not games we need to take it to the opposition consistently.
Maguire for definite, Bruno probably as well.
But the downsides are very high. None of our players are good at wing back, let alone having one both sides.
We can barely keep centre backs in form and fit, who would the 3 be?
Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood are much better wide, so none fit into this system.
Ronaldo probably works better with 5 around him working hard and serving him.
McFred we've seen are only effective in certain games, certainly not games we need to take it to the opposition consistently.
Considering how awful we have been in having a complete lack of control in midfield 9 times out of 10 in matches I would like to have at least seen a period in the last few years of us trying 31411 like holland used in the 2014 world cup.
____________gk
_lindelof_varane_maguire
_____________ Jones
Mctominay_beek__fred__shaw
____________sancho
___________ronaldo
I put Maguire and ronaldo in there because realistically it seems like both are undroppable. The formation gives sancho a free role like robben had in that holland set up. It's just damn defensive midfielder position that is problematic, as long as he is fit I would put jones there over matic in that position.
____________gk
_lindelof_varane_maguire
_____________ Jones
Mctominay_beek__fred__shaw
____________sancho
___________ronaldo
I put Maguire and ronaldo in there because realistically it seems like both are undroppable. The formation gives sancho a free role like robben had in that holland set up. It's just damn defensive midfielder position that is problematic, as long as he is fit I would put jones there over matic in that position.
Sounds crazy but I'd love to see AWB as part of a back 3.
His positional awareness is a bit suspect at times but there are many examples of dodgy defenders looking class in a well-drilled back 3/5.
His positional awareness is a bit suspect at times but there are many examples of dodgy defenders looking class in a well-drilled back 3/5.
This could work I think -
DdG
Shaw
Varane
Lindelof
Telles
McT
Fred
Dalot
Rashford
Mason
Sancho
DdG
Shaw
Varane
Lindelof
Telles
McT
Fred
Dalot
Rashford
Mason
Sancho
I would take anything that isn't starting with 4 forwards
Formations don't really exist. At least not for us.
I shudder when I see Telles on a team sheet, awful defender, weak, not the quickest and for all the fanfare when he signed his end product is nothingness.
Other than that I like the team!