That 2009-10 season if Rooney didn't get injured against Bayern we would have won the league.
Last edited by a moderator:
A moment to appreciate the 06-11 side Fergie built.
- Thread starter Alex99
- Start date
Great team.
Rio and Vidic was the catalyst for that. Settled back four and the attackers having freedom because they know the guys behind them won’t concede many.
Rio and Vidic was the catalyst for that. Settled back four and the attackers having freedom because they know the guys behind them won’t concede many.
Is there even a debate on this? It's by far our most successful period, and we played great football to go with it whilst also being solid as a rock defensively.
Imagine if Ronaldo never left.
Likely 7 straight league titles til Fergie's retirement.
Why couldn't he have been British haha.
Likely 7 straight league titles til Fergie's retirement.
Why couldn't he have been British haha.
To be fair, if Fergie had invested the Ronaldo money better (Ribery) we probably would have hit 7 on the bounce too.
Isn't it something like in his last 6 years we were only bested on points once in the league?
Sadly those last few years did coincide with a growing number of fans who valued net spend over trophies. Silverware was almost of secondary importance to the debate. "Yes we've just won the league...BUT LOOK AT OUR NET SPEND!!
"
Sadly those last few years did coincide with a growing number of fans who valued net spend over trophies. Silverware was almost of secondary importance to the debate. "Yes we've just won the league...BUT LOOK AT OUR NET SPEND!!
"Yeah, should have signed Robben and Sneijder as part of the deal. Without that we missed 2 league titles by 1 point and GD. Man was a genius.
As far Ollie is concern, this is all nonsense. Pep is the best ever. Period.
It's hard to criticise Fergie all things considered, but that was a truly awful window for us.
The side that won the 3 CL was a joy to behold, a perfect machine that could face any team. We had the best defence in the world, a rock solid midfield and a stellar forward line with Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo doing all sort of damage. Its a shame that
a- SAF messed with it (Tevez was way better for us then Barbietov)
b- we went in full skint mode. The value strategy was a disaster and we're still feeling the effects of it till this very day.
Going full skint mode after a massively successful season was part and parcel with SAF's administration. We did pretty much the same with the treble side were we tried to replace world class articles like Schmeichel, Irwin and Stam with the likes of Bosnich, Silvestre and Blanc. In my opinion, that the single reason United weren't able to win more CLs during SAF's reign.
a- SAF messed with it (Tevez was way better for us then Barbietov)
b- we went in full skint mode. The value strategy was a disaster and we're still feeling the effects of it till this very day.
Going full skint mode after a massively successful season was part and parcel with SAF's administration. We did pretty much the same with the treble side were we tried to replace world class articles like Schmeichel, Irwin and Stam with the likes of Bosnich, Silvestre and Blanc. In my opinion, that the single reason United weren't able to win more CLs during SAF's reign.
What a load of rubbish - sides still have to be beaten - Real Madrid run in 2016 Roma, Wolfsburg, Man City, Atletico - hardly full off big names nobody remembers the route.
Last edited by a moderator:
Also worth noting that we had not won the league for 3 seasons. Crashed out of the UCL in the group stages and there was a lot of talk about SAF being finished as a manager and United are on a downward spiral.
Remember reading an article, when we were knocked out of the UCL group stages, that ended with, "At the theatre of dreams, the nightmare has just begun."
Then we go on to enjoy the most successful period in our club's history.
Sweet sweet times.
Remember reading an article, when we were knocked out of the UCL group stages, that ended with, "At the theatre of dreams, the nightmare has just begun."
Then we go on to enjoy the most successful period in our club's history.
Sweet sweet times.
Yeah, tbf to Fergie, he did what he had to, to win the league and he did it so consistently.
We lost 2009-10 because Rooney was injured late in the season and Berbatov failed to step up.
2010-11, we were one kick away from winning the league. That Everton game was so bad, we were 4-2 up, Evra hit the post which should have been 5-2 and game over but we conceded 2 to make it 4-4. Very small margins.
Anyways, should have signed Robben and Sneijder. That 2009 summer window was really bad. Losing the best player in the world, losing Tevez and the replacement were Valencia, Obertan and Owen. Only Fergie can win the league titles after those kind of transfer windows.
The CL defeats to Barcelona in 2009 and 2011 were pretty bad but we could have no complaints. We were outplayed and simply second best on both occasions. Probably 2011 was worse because there were higher expectations given that we had faced them before and SAF was confident we would do much better. The exit to Bayern Munich though hurts so much even to this day. How we didn't win the game (or the tie should I say) I will never know. Rooney was the best striker in the world at the time and the injury he picked up in the 1st leg screwed us big time. Perhaps in hindsight he shouldn't have started the 2nd leg because it ended up costing us the league as well. I remember SAF was fuming at the Bayern players for putting pressure on the referee. Rafael had Ribery under total control and they were never going to beat us with 11 men. Never. The referee won it for them. Had we gone through I'm 100% certain we would've won the CL that year and Inter Milan's treble possibly would never have happened.
very unlucky to face best Barca side twice
We could've won in 09 had we converted one of the 3/4 chances we had in the first 10 mins, once Barca settled into the game, we had no chance.
In 11 we were not that special, but when we went into HT at 1-1 I really expected SAF to change the shape or tactic to try to keep it at 1-1 and maybe nick a goal or go into extra time and even pens.
Agree that the exit to Bayern was more painful than the two finals, even the exit to Madrid was hard to take because we matched them and would've won if RvP was more clinical.
Such fine margins, really goes to show how difficult it is to win the UCL.
In 11 we were not that special, but when we went into HT at 1-1 I really expected SAF to change the shape or tactic to try to keep it at 1-1 and maybe nick a goal or go into extra time and even pens.
Agree that the exit to Bayern was more painful than the two finals, even the exit to Madrid was hard to take because we matched them and would've won if RvP was more clinical.
Such fine margins, really goes to show how difficult it is to win the UCL.
Even before that, if there was a proper refereeing in the semi-final, I think we could have won pretty easily against Chelsea.
Surely through to his retirement? That side was phenomenal and City only really fluked the title on the last day through a set of fortunate circumstances the year before and a bundle of ridiculous decisions that robbed us of points through the season.
SAF was a complete genius. Undoubted.
SAF was a complete genius. Undoubted.
There'll be never another like him again. He'd won the title at least twice in the last four years if he hadn't retired.
Actually very similar to Liverpools run this year, we beat Chelsea in the quarters and got Schalke in the semi's. They have faced City in the quarters and possibly Roma in the semi's.
I've been discussing relative records of clubs and managers with a work colleague this morning. He's a Real fan, so discussing European cups with him is a bit like turning up to a gunfight with a water pistol, but we agreed Fergie should have had another CL or two and that Pep's recent record in that competition is becoming the strongest argument against his candidacy as a genuine GOAT-tier manager.
Fergie is very safely a GOAT (as I imagine Pep will be when he finishes) but though I'm receptive to many of the arguments in this thread and others; Barca 09 and particularly 11 were otherworldly, CL has a larger luck factor than leagues, Fergie had more on his plate staying at the top in PL than other coaches had in their respective leagues, we still had a great record between 06-11 etc. I can't shake the conclusion this Fergie side should have had more than one CL to show for its class.
Fergie is very safely a GOAT (as I imagine Pep will be when he finishes) but though I'm receptive to many of the arguments in this thread and others; Barca 09 and particularly 11 were otherworldly, CL has a larger luck factor than leagues, Fergie had more on his plate staying at the top in PL than other coaches had in their respective leagues, we still had a great record between 06-11 etc. I can't shake the conclusion this Fergie side should have had more than one CL to show for its class.
Depends if you prefer Domestic or Euro success - we had back to back doubles and a treble in the '94 to '99 which is still unprecedented, tended to struggle a bit in Europe though but alot of that was due to the foreigner rule
ID say our football was actually more exciting in the 90s, we became more tactically astute later which is why there was more success in Europe
Ultimately he was responsible for those players, whether it was nurturing their development and graduation to the senior squad, or simply signing them.
We've seen many sides full of great players that have enjoyed nowhere near that level of success, some arguably better than United were, particularly post-Ronaldo, but Fergie was a master at balancing performances across multiple competitions, whatever he had at his disposal.
We had some great players, that goes without saying, but in an age where the "best team ever" managed by the "best manager ever" looks set to settle on the league and league cup after being eliminated from the FA Cup by lower league opposition and humiliated in the CL, when no team has retained the PL since our last run of three in a row, I think it's good to look back at quite how unique Fergie was as a manager
They were incredible but people here talk about them as if there's nothing you could have done when it was hardly the case. Chelsea in 2009 and Arsenal in 2011 were incredibly close to knocking them out, both teams were worse than United in the same year.
I think by 2011 United weren't as good and Barcelona were better but Fergie got it wrong for the 2009 final imo. That one shouldn't have been as easy as it was at least.
Absolutely, that period is the best the club has ever been in Europe, just our luck that we ran into the best club side ever at the peak of their powers. 2010 was a missed opportunity, very careless loss to Bayern, even without Ronaldo that was still a very good Utd team with a solid defensive unit and Rooney at his peak. 2011 was unexpected to get to the final, Barca that year were as close to unbeatable as any team I have seen, especially with that years Utd who had dropped off badly. Rome was more frustrating, Utd could have won that game, just under performed badly and not picking Scholes despite his poor form was a mistake against their pressing.
CL was rarely kind to Utd, Dortmund still rankles me to this day, Utd with no exaggeration could have scored 15 goals over the tie, they got a deflected shot in both games, it was a nightmare loss. Monaco was terrible with an injury crisis killing that season, the first loss to Real in 2000 was a shambles, better team, should have won the tournament that year Barthez against the Galacticos in 03 was giving them the tie, another host of chances spurned in those 2 games. Leverkusen another disaster. Milan in 06/07, defensive injuries and fatigue in a small squad killed them at the end of that season.
In fact since SAF left, all teams (bar City in 2014/15) haven't even made the top 4 the season after winning the league, something Chelsea look set to continue this season.
Yes otherworldly is hyperbolic and it's also fair to point out that it's hardly reasonable to enter a competition then complain you didn't win because someone was better than you. However Barca 09-11≈ are widely considered to be the most talented and complete set of players ever assembled by a club, almost a freak class graduating together along with quality external additions, and though as you say I would rather focus on what United could have done in those finals among fellow United fans and other sympathetic ears I'm not above a collective shrug and holding up of hands to that Barca team.
It's a painful collection for sure, not to mention adding failures in the 90s due variously to tactical naivety (for me Queiroz deserves credit for our improvement in Europe in the 00s) and the foreign quota rule.
The one that sticks out for me was 2010. I was in Castleford filming a documentary for my final project and sat with my brother in absolute horror as we threw it away to Olic and Robben. We still occasionally do Robben's daft face and hand gesture celebration after he scored that goal; we can look back now and laugh but at the time it was horrific.
Incredible run. I've always thought the achievements of the 96 - 02 team were better though. Might just be nostalgia, but I also think the era was better globally in a football sense. Still the 06-11 team was frighteningly good.
If Pep and Barca didn't happen .. we would equal Liverpool in CL titles. Bah humbug
I don't worry too much about the 94 team, even without the foreigner rule I doubt they are winning the CL at the time. Weak squad outside the first 12/13(though to be fair that was true for most teams then) and defensively Parker, Bruce and Pallister was a problem at that level. Utd were used to being able to counter against teams who did not value the ball, in Europe some of the tactical naivety was exposed.
Fergie made a hash of 2010, the late change sticking Berbatov on to go 2 up top in the first leg to try and kill it when we were 1 up and comfortable, opened up the midfield for Bayern, and then not acting on Rafael when he was on a yellow and still charging into tackles. He was having a great game but he was a kid and playing with his heart rather than his head. Playing Rooney when he was clearly not fit another mistake.
Personally I reckon we would've won one of those finals (09 or 11) if Ronaldo stayed, the difference between a great team (e.g. invincibles, current man city, chelsea 04/05) and a legendary team (madrid late 50s, milan late 80s, man united late 00s, barca early 10s), is the really great teams have that one, ballon d'or level player or better yet GOAT tier player (Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona) who takes them to a truly unstoppable level. These players carry teams which without them would be about as good as the 'great' teams I mentioned (milan side had multiple ballon dor winners). Potentially man city could get here if someone there turned into a ballon dor level player, someone like Sane. I mean its totally possible United could hit this level in a few years, say players live up to their big potential.
Lets imagine with our optimistic crystal ball (let the dream begin): ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.......
"Commentator 1: Ahem, today is the big day, the champions league final 2022, man united vs bayern, a rematch of a famous game over 20 years ago now.
Commentator 2: Okay today with our starting lineups man united will line up in a 4-3-3:
In goal David De Gea, hes been the worlds best for a number of years now.
And the defence, the brick wall eric bailly partners axel tuanzebe, the classy young centre half.
Commentator 1: What a top player Bailly is, for me hes the very best, I mean its no wonder he was picked in the world XI this year.
Commentator 2: Mmmm, yes, moving on, in fullback, luke shaw is on the left. And...
Commentator 1 (interrupts): To think only a few years many thought he was done at United, what fools we were, now he well and truly established as one of the best left backs the premier league has to offer.
Commentator 2: Anyway, at right back, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, the powerful dutch fullback.
And in midfield, the dynamic brazilian, fabinho, solidifying the centre of the park, and ahead of him, Paul Pogba, the key driving force of this man united outfit. Next to him, Milinkovic-Savic, the powerful serbian with an eye for goal.
Commentator 1: He certainly showed us that last week when he scored the 2nd consecutive premier league for Man United at Anfield with that late winner.
Commentator 2: Now with the front 3, at right wing, Tahith Chong, the young academy graduate who took the premier league by storm last year, winning the pfa young player of the year. And in the middle, Romelu Lukaku, the captain of this United team, he'll be looking to lead this United outfit to glory through his goals tonight.
And last but not least, Anthony Martial, the man everyone will be watching.
Commentator 1: Well of course, he is the favourite to win this year's ballon d'or award."
Ah, we can hope.
Lets imagine with our optimistic crystal ball (let the dream begin): ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.......
"Commentator 1: Ahem, today is the big day, the champions league final 2022, man united vs bayern, a rematch of a famous game over 20 years ago now.
Commentator 2: Okay today with our starting lineups man united will line up in a 4-3-3:
In goal David De Gea, hes been the worlds best for a number of years now.
And the defence, the brick wall eric bailly partners axel tuanzebe, the classy young centre half.
Commentator 1: What a top player Bailly is, for me hes the very best, I mean its no wonder he was picked in the world XI this year.
Commentator 2: Mmmm, yes, moving on, in fullback, luke shaw is on the left. And...
Commentator 1 (interrupts): To think only a few years many thought he was done at United, what fools we were, now he well and truly established as one of the best left backs the premier league has to offer.
Commentator 2: Anyway, at right back, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, the powerful dutch fullback.
And in midfield, the dynamic brazilian, fabinho, solidifying the centre of the park, and ahead of him, Paul Pogba, the key driving force of this man united outfit. Next to him, Milinkovic-Savic, the powerful serbian with an eye for goal.
Commentator 1: He certainly showed us that last week when he scored the 2nd consecutive premier league for Man United at Anfield with that late winner.
Commentator 2: Now with the front 3, at right wing, Tahith Chong, the young academy graduate who took the premier league by storm last year, winning the pfa young player of the year. And in the middle, Romelu Lukaku, the captain of this United team, he'll be looking to lead this United outfit to glory through his goals tonight.
And last but not least, Anthony Martial, the man everyone will be watching.
Commentator 1: Well of course, he is the favourite to win this year's ballon d'or award."
Ah, we can hope.
Side stacked with quality.
I honestly didn't see it coming given Man. United's league level between 03-06 and also selling RVN during that summer.
Man. United could win games different ways during that period. Side with Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov and Owen as forward options could win by 4/5 but pretty sure in 08-09 you also had a long period of 1-0 wins so at the back Rio-Vidic were rocks and Evra and Van Der Sar were also great.
Formula worked well in europ of course, 3 champions league finals in 4 seasons.
I honestly didn't see it coming given Man. United's league level between 03-06 and also selling RVN during that summer.
Man. United could win games different ways during that period. Side with Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov and Owen as forward options could win by 4/5 but pretty sure in 08-09 you also had a long period of 1-0 wins so at the back Rio-Vidic were rocks and Evra and Van Der Sar were also great.
Formula worked well in europ of course, 3 champions league finals in 4 seasons.
I fecking loved that team. Quality all over the pitch, characters, leaders and above all that old man in the dugout.
I was desperate for RVN to go by that point. Didn't matter how many goals he could score, he was restricting the overall attacking potential of the side, making Utd predictable and stifling the growth of Rooney and Ronaldo. Not hating on RVN, his first 2 1/2 years he was brilliant for Utd but injuries slowed him down and Utd needed to get back to spreading the goals and attacking variations.
Real pity that Saha had such issues with his body, he was a wonderful foil for Rooney, Giggs and Ronaldo, solid all round game, quick, good in the air, technically excellent. Average finisher but he opened up our attacking play and is one of the reasons why that 06/07 team remains among the most enjoyable Utd teams ever to watch.
I think it was more who'd take over the goalscoring mantle.
Rooney could score close to 20 of course but he'd already been there two seasons and Man. United hadn't seriously challenge for the league in either year.
Ronaldo at the time wasn't the goalscoring monster he is now and Saha was regularly crocked. OGS also started getting lots of injuries around that time and had to retire soon after.
Ronaldo-Rooney-Saha for first half of that season worked brilliantly. Think Giggs and Scholes also came back and had brilliant seasons after struggling the previous 18 months.
Rooney could score close to 20 of course but he'd already been there two seasons and Man. United hadn't seriously challenge for the league in either year.
Ronaldo at the time wasn't the goalscoring monster he is now and Saha was regularly crocked. OGS also started getting lots of injuries around that time and had to retire soon after.
Ronaldo-Rooney-Saha for first half of that season worked brilliantly. Think Giggs and Scholes also came back and had brilliant seasons after struggling the previous 18 months.
No, they really wouldn't be.
Also added VDS in 2005 summer and Vidic + Evra in 2005 winter. They were huge additions for the team.
Carrick was added in 2006 summer too. Such a brilliant year to sort out next 5-6 years.
Utd had so much movement with that set up. Rooney, Ronaldo and Giggs behind the striker, constantly interchanging, not tied down to staying on the wing trying to feed RVN. Remember that Roma game, even with Smith instead of Saha, Giggs played as 10, LW and a RW at points of that game, it was fantastically fluid line up and RVN was too one dimensional to allow it to blossom.
That 4-2 at Arsenal with RVN out probably convinced Fergie to move beyond him.
Just shows the power of Fergie. And during this period you had guys like O'Shea, Fletcher, Park, Rafael, etc etc playing in midfield or out of position. Now Mourinho needs another £100m Riaola superstar every summer.
Great days when Fergie could buy three relatively cheap, unfancied/under the radar players and sort three positions for years.
Personally I reckon we would've won one of those finals (09 or 11) if Ronaldo stayed, the difference between a great team (e.g. invincibles, current man city, chelsea 04/05) and a legendary team (madrid late 50s, milan late 80s, man united late 00s, barca early 10s), is the really great teams have that one, ballon d'or level player or better yet GOAT tier player (Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona) who takes them to a truly unstoppable level. These players carry teams which without them would be about as good as the 'great' teams I mentioned (milan side had multiple ballon dor winners). Potentially man city could get here if someone there turned into a ballon dor level player, someone like Sane. I mean its totally possible United could hit this level in a few years, say players live up to their big potential.
Lets imagine with our optimistic crystal ball (let the dream begin): ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.......
"Commentator 1: Ahem, today is the big day, the champions league final 2022, man united vs bayern, a rematch of a famous game over 20 years ago now.
Commentator 2: Okay today with our starting lineups man united will line up in a 4-3-3:
In goal David De Gea, hes been the worlds best for a number of years now.
And the defence, the brick wall eric bailly partners axel tuanzebe, the classy young centre half.
Commentator 1: What a top player Bailly is, for me hes the very best, I mean its no wonder he was picked in the world XI this year.
Commentator 2: Mmmm, yes, moving on, in fullback, luke shaw is on the left. And...
Commentator 1 (interrupts): To think only a few years many thought he was done at United, what fools we were, now he well and truly established as one of the best left backs the premier league has to offer.
Commentator 2: Anyway, at right back, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, the powerful dutch fullback.
And in midfield, the dynamic brazilian, fabinho, solidifying the centre of the park, and ahead of him, Paul Pogba, the key driving force of this man united outfit. Next to him, Milinkovic-Savic, the powerful serbian with an eye for goal.
Commentator 1: He certainly showed us that last week when he scored the 2nd consecutive premier league for Man United at Anfield with that late winner.
Commentator 2: Now with the front 3, at right wing, Tahith Chong, the young academy graduate who took the premier league by storm last year, winning the pfa young player of the year. And in the middle, Romelu Lukaku, the captain of this United team, he'll be looking to lead this United outfit to glory through his goals tonight.
And last but not least, Anthony Martial, the man everyone will be watching.
Commentator 1: Well of course, he is the favourite to win this year's ballon d'or award."
Ah, we can hope.
Why not? I particularly like the detail of commentator 1's interruption to comment on Shaw.