Aaron Wan-Bissaka - a statistical anomaly?

[Red4Ever]

Love the guy but the always diving in costs too. As does the positional sleepiness

People used admire headless chickens like rojo and bailly for their last ditch tackling too but a really good defender knows how to defend with just better positional sense (eg Rio/Paul mic Grath/even Wes brown)

on his day though he’s nearly unbeatable
And has been good since Christmas mostly

 

[cpresc]

I remember when we had Schmeichel in goal and if the opposition had a 1on1 against him I'd be thinking "it's okay, he'll save it"

Same with Stam

Same with Martinez now (love him)

And strangely, same with Bissaka.

But with Bissaka I also think the same thing when we're going forward and he gets possession, except it's "uh oh, he'll lose it"

That's the problem.

 

[bringbackbebe]

He makes this many tackles because he’s out of position. Once his athleticism goes with age, he’ll be a major liability. I’d sell him on now to get a more modern and intelligent RB.

This is not entirely true. He is often the one who has to track back and tackle because Maguire played the opposition onside to counter us. AWB has done well this season without Maguire in the fold.

 

[Syphon Wallet]

I remember when we had Schmeichel in goal and if the opposition had a 1on1 against him I'd be thinking "it's okay, he'll save it"

Same with Stam

Same with Martinez now (love him)

And strangely, same with Bissaka.

But with Bissaka I also think the same thing when we're going forward and he gets possession, except it's "uh oh, he'll lose it"

That's the problem.

Yep , I feel the same way.
I remember when we lost to wolves last year , he skinned the defender and got to the byline , (some lovely work) and then proceeded to hoof the attempted cross straight at me in the stands.
The waste after such good work was crazy , I declared him finished at that point.
But his improvement has been very surprising to me in 2023, he's changed my mind , you can't let a player go after such obvious improvement.

 

[golden_blunder]

It's such a weird statistic.

There are still painful memories under Ole with the combination of him playing passively and often tucking in with a haemorrhaged Lindelof playing next to Maguire, but I've really enjoyed watching him in 2023 under EtH.

We all know he has limitations in the ball playing side of things, but up against some of the absolute best dribblers in world football he has always done a great job.

I really thought Dalot was the better of the two but I think come May we'll be saying AWB has had the better season all things considered.

Under ole, for a lot of the time he was on his own on that flank and the expectation was on him to create and defend. It was not a fair expectation: then we bought a RW and turns out his favourite spot is LW. Let’s show him a bit of love, he has shown under ETH that he can meet the managers brief. Which seems to be carrying the ball forward as an inverted fullback. Occupying a different channel from Anthony yet forming a good understanding with him

 

[golden_blunder]

The issue is, if we move on Dalot (which would be my preference if any) he's unlikely to move to an English club so we'd end up fielding a bunch of low ball offers from European clubs. AWB would fetch more from PL clubs with far more cash to throw around.

If we end up being in the position of having to sell players to raise funds, then AWB could be the one to go simply through it being more financially beneficial to us.

On the flip side it will cost us 50m to replace him

 

[Messier1994]

He makes some great tackles, but his success rate isn't much of an anomally though, and considering the number of attempts it means that his unsuccesful number of tackles(not rate/percentage, but number) is ridiculously high then?

For example, he made 122 unsuccessful(?) tackles in total, which means he was left on his arse while opposition continued to build the attack 122 times. In comparision with other players from that list, it's about 5-6 times more.

I am really not sure that's entirely positive stat.

The only threshold to get on the list is 100 or more tackles over the last 6 seasons and being top 5 in success rate. Saliba is 22. You can have someone having played 50 games and someone having played 350 games on that list.

The top 5 in tackles attempted in the top 5 leagues could look very different.

 

[Brightonian]

His attacking and possession football have noticeably improved under Ten Hag. Not playing with Maguire as much seems to have helped too. I wouldn't sell unless someone made us a very good offer. Defensively he's one of a kind, and I don't believe he makes that many tackles because he has to chase a lot; he chooses to tackle when most modern players wouldn't. He actively creates situations where he can tackle. And he's often the player we choose to leave back in situations precisely because he can make recovering tackles (and because of his pace).

 

[Ekeke]

Honestly, I really like the guy but that profile isn’t for us going forward. It’s the same as the argument around De Gea - another statistical anomaly.

What it should mean though is that for the right team he could be world class and therefore we should be able to ask a good fee for him.

That said if he wanted to stick around as second choice that’s cool too.

Theres an Arsenal player and a Barcelona player on that list. They're top of their leagues.

 

[Ekeke]

He makes some great tackles, but his success rate isn't much of an anomally though, and considering the number of attempts it means that his unsuccesful number of tackles(not rate/percentage, but number) is ridiculously high then?

For example, he made 122 unsuccessful(?) tackles in total, which means he was left on his arse while opposition continued to build the attack 122 times. In comparision with other players from that list, it's about 5-6 times more.

I am really not sure that's entirely positive stat.

Um

Did you miss the part where it tells you, in a large font, the exact % ? And that he's top of the list?

Jesus christ. That was their entire point

 

[Pexbo]

Theres an Arsenal player and a Barcelona player on that list. They're top of their leagues.

Yes but we are talking about an anomaly. His stats are incomparable with those players.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes but we are talking about an anomaly. His stats are incomparable with those players.

Not the "true tackle" percentage. Its top of the list but by .6% on 2nd place and 3% over the others

The attempted tackles sure that is a lot higher than the rest. But its more indicitive of our reliance on counter attacking football and letting the other team have more of the ball. And thats not to do with AWB, thats to do with our midfield and playing style from our managers.

Interestingly when LVG was here and we were our most % of the ball focused we've been (and most boring to watch) the ball winning statistics of Jones, Rojo and Smalling were the best they ever had. Despite us having more of the ball. So its not all about the style of the team either.

Its about workloads and where the opposition chooses to try and work their way through the team. And in AWB's case teams will fairly often have their most dangerous player on the ball going directly against him, and he will play maximising his 1 vs 1 strengths by giving the opponent the space to try and run at him, fully confident that he'll reach the ball once they try it. He is baiting them into playing his game and thats why he can attempt so many, and be so successful with his tackling.

Likewise with the stats when LVG was here, our CBs had a high workload. Teams could constantly get their players competing against our CBs and thats why their ball winning stats were so high. If we had Kante in midfield at the time that probably wouldnt have been the case. But we didnt, teams were able to put our CBs to work a lot and they did well under that pressure.

 

[The_Order]

People clutch onto their preconceived views like their life depends on it. None willing to move an inch. It's funny to see but this is the world we live in.

Why question your own ideas when you can double down and argue it out ad infinitum?

Internet discourse.

changing your mind based on new information is a sign of weakness.

 

[Pexbo]

Not the "true tackle" percentage. Its top of the list but by .6% on 2nd place and 3% over the others

The attempted tackles sure that is a lot higher than the rest. But its more indicitive of our reliance on counter attacking football and letting the other team have more of the ball. And thats not to do with AWB, thats to do with our midfield and playing style from our managers.

Interestingly when LVG was here and we were our most % of the ball focused we've been (and most boring to watch) the ball winning statistics of Jones, Rojo and Smalling were the best they ever had. Despite us having more of the ball. So its not all about the style of the team either.

Its about workloads and where the opposition chooses to try and work their way through the team. And in AWB's case teams will fairly often have their most dangerous player on the ball going directly against him, and he will play maximising his 1 vs 1 strengths by giving the opponent the space to try and run at him, fully confident that he'll reach the ball once they try it. He is baiting them into playing his game and thats why he can attempt so many, and be so successful with his tackling.

Likewise with the stats when LVG was here, our CBs had a high workload. Teams could constantly get their players competing against our CBs and thats why their ball winning stats were so high. If we had Kante in midfield at the time that probably wouldnt have been the case. But we didnt, teams were able to put our CBs to work a lot and they did well under that pressure.

You’re missing the point completely.

Percentage wise he is the best in Europe. And it’s only by .6%. Sure.

He’s attempted 571. That’s the key bit. The rest of the top 5 in total have only attempted 612.

It’s like arguing that a striker only has a 0.6% better shot conversion rate when he’s attempted 4 x as many shots as anyone else.

There is no point analysing out style of play and putting it down to that. There are differences but we aren’t that freakishly different to the rest of Europe. If that was the case can you explain why Shaw, Malacia and Dalot or nowhere to be seen?

 

[youngrell]

Um

Did you miss the part where it tells you, in a large font, the exact % ? And that he's top of the list?

Jesus christ. That was their entire point

It was quite impressive to find a negative angle on a stat that showed a player had made overwhelmingly more tackles than his contemporaries along with doing so at the best success rate.

 

[Giggsyking]

He makes some great tackles, but his success rate isn't much of an anomally though, and considering the number of attempts it means that his unsuccesful number of tackles(not rate/percentage, but number) is ridiculously high then?

For example, he made 122 unsuccessful(?) tackles in total, which means he was left on his arse while opposition continued to build the attack 122 times. In comparision with other players from that list, it's about 5-6 times more.

I am really not sure that's entirely positive stat.

What are you talking about?
He has the highest success rate in Europe despite the fact he made 3 times the tackles made by the ones who are in the list behind him as high success rate tacklers.

 

[We need an rvn]

You’re missing the point completely.

Percentage wise he is the best in Europe. And it’s only by .6%. Sure.

He’s attempted 571. That’s the key bit. The rest of the top 5 in total have only attempted 612.

It’s like arguing that a striker only has a 0.6% better shot conversion rate when he’s attempted 4 x as many shots as anyone else.

There is no point analysing out style of play and putting it down to that. There are differences but we aren’t that freakishly different to the rest of Europe. If that was the case can you explain why Shaw, Malacia and Dalot or nowhere to be seen?

It’s a great stat and I’m not denying he’s great in a tackle. Had mitoma in his pocket over the weekend.

Could you make a point though that maybe his positioning is wrong too often / loses possession too often and thus he needs to make a tackle when others don’t need to (ie positioning) hence why you don’t see city / Barca etc defenders there?

 

[youngrell]

It’s a great stat and I’m not denying he’s great in a tackle. Had mitoma in his pocket over the weekend.

Could you make a point though that maybe his positioning is wrong too often / loses possession too often and thus he needs to make a tackle when others don’t need to (ie positioning) hence why you don’t see city / Barca etc defenders there?

There's probably some element of this within the stats, there's no denying he has positioning issues. But the highest contribution factor is that he is a really good tackler and uses it to his advantage. Shaw and our other full backs prefer to jockey, intercept and block passes/crosses, he is just a bit more aggressive and proactive in his defending.

 

[Bilbo]

On the flip side it will cost us 50m to replace him

Not necessarily. In my opinion full back is one of the few positions left where you can still get excellent value for money

 

[golden_blunder]

Not necessarily. In my opinion full back is one of the few positions left where you can still get excellent value for money

Complete unknown perhaps

but look at frimpong, his club want 50m+ for him

 

[ZupZup]

Could you make a point though that maybe his positioning is wrong too often / loses possession too often and thus he needs to make a tackle when others don’t need to (ie positioning) hence why you don’t see city / Barca etc defenders there?

See I don't get this argument at all. You watch the way we play under Ten Hag when we have the ball... if Antony goes wide, Wan-Bissaka needs to position himself inside, sometimes almost in a right side #10 sort of position. This has great benefits when we have the ball and are attacking, but one misplaced pass from a team mate and you will find you have to potentially sprint back into a defensive position and make a tackle. That's not Wan-Bissaka's fault or whomever is playing full back.

 

[Skills]

Players not making tackles is an outdated concept. Teams aren't defending space anymore like the 90s and 00s - man to man is the preferred way to defend especially in the middle third. You need to be able to win your match ups and AWB is elite at it.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I’ll just put this here.

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[Ekeke]

You’re missing the point completely.

Percentage wise he is the best in Europe. And it’s only by .6%. Sure.

He’s attempted 571. That’s the key bit. The rest of the top 5 in total have only attempted 612.

It’s like arguing that a striker only has a 0.6% better shot conversion rate when he’s attempted 4 x as many shots as anyone else.

There is no point analysing out style of play and putting it down to that. There are differences but we aren’t that freakishly different to the rest of Europe. If that was the case can you explain why Shaw, Malacia and Dalot or nowhere to be seen?

Because AWB is. You missed the point. Workload and where the players are actually worked. AWB invites it, and teams take us up on taking him on and working down his side despite his success rate. Thats all work the others dont have to do because there is only 1 football on the pitch and if AWB is being taken on and challenging for the ball, then Shaw and usually the CBs (sometimes the RCB might be drawn into it) dont have to. And thats contrary to LVG's United where the CBs were big ball winners. They didnt have an AWB inviting and being very successful with work down the rightback's side.

Also theres far more tackles per games than goals, so no its nothing like your example. Even shots on target theres usually far more tackles than that

 

[MadDogg]

Love the guy but the always diving in costs too. As does the positional sleepiness

People used admire headless chickens like rojo and bailly for their last ditch tackling too but a really good defender knows how to defend with just better positional sense (eg Rio/Paul mic Grath/even Wes brown)

I'd say the difference is that AWB is almost always fully in control of his tackling. It's quite rare that I feel that he was taking a risk when he makes one.

Normally I would say that a player diving in all the time is due to them being out of position too often, but I'm not sure that is applicable to AWB. He knows how ridiculously good he is at it, so he often seems to deliberately show the opposition player just enough space to get them interested at trying to get into that space then he just shuts the door on them and either wins the ball back or puts it out for a throw.

AWB definitely does have issues with his positioning at times (although he does seem to have improved it this season), but I'm not sure it has anything to do with the vast majority of his tackles.

 

[Pexbo]

Because AWB is. You missed the point. Workload and where the players are actually worked. AWB invites it, and teams take us up on taking him on and working down his side despite his success rate. Thats all work the others dont have to do because there is only 1 football on the pitch and if AWB is being taken on and challenging for the ball, then Shaw and usually the CBs (sometimes the RCB might be drawn into it) dont have to. And thats contrary to LVG's United where the CBs were big ball winners. They didnt have an AWB inviting and being very successful with work down the rightback's side.

Also theres far more tackles per games than goals, so no its nothing like your example. Even shots on target theres usually far more tackles than that

You either don’t seem to know what point you are arguing anymore or you have a misunderstanding of statistics. Or both.

 

[M Bison]

Become a big fan over the past 6 months and his ability on the ball and to move forward with the ball has improved massively. He's still a lot of room for improvement but definitely showing positive signs.

I always thought he'd end up playing centrally too.

 

[Skills]

I’ll just put this here.

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AWB doesn't make an unusually high number of tackles. He's only in the 64th percentile for tackles made this season for a fullback. He's just elite at winning the ones he does make.

Lisandro Martinez on the other hand is in the 90th percentile for tackles made this season Vs other CBs. And he's only won 51% of them. Now that's a player I can imagine someone like Maldini wouldn't rate - might explain his absence from the Argentine starting XI over the likes of Otamendi?

 

[FrankWhite]

I remember when we had Schmeichel in goal and if the opposition had a 1on1 against him I'd be thinking "it's okay, he'll save it"

Same with Stam

Same with Martinez now (love him)

And strangely, same with Bissaka.

But with Bissaka I also think the same thing when we're going forward and he gets possession, except it's "uh oh, he'll lose it"

That's the problem.

While I love what Martinez brings to the team, he's no where near AWB in tackling or one on one defending in space. They are very different type of defenders and body types.

The more Martinez I see, the more I appreciate why he can't play in CDM. He's great when he gets to jump the attacker. However, once the attacker turns and faces him up, he struggles (See the game against Westham at OT). He's not a great open space defender against quick players. In close spaces however, he's supreme. His short limps and low centre of gravity means he's able to sort out his feet quicker than most attackers and nick the ball.

AWB on the other hand, is great in open space against anybody. His long limps means he can delay a tackle longer than most people and still not be late. Be interesting to see if AWB can do Martinez style close space defending. I would love to see AWB against Saka, who give Shaw fits at the Emirates.

 

[stevoc]

I used to think football was about scoring goals and making sure opponents don't score. Here we have a guy who even if he is positionally weak, makes sure the opponent doesn't score by taking the ball off them. But revolutionary geniuses here would make you believe that's a bad thing because he doesn't do it in a way they prefer to see.

This stuff always reminds me of the old Beckham arguments back in the day. Don't know how many times I heard people say he wasn't a great winger because he wasn't a great dribbler. Obviously ignoring the fact he didn't need to be a great dribbler, he was so much better at crossing than most wingers that he could cross from anywhere.

 

[tenpoless]

What's crazy about that stat is how was he required to make 4.83 times more tackles than second guy on the list? has he always played for teams that sit back and let forwards have a go at them?
If it's just about the success rate, sure that's good. But I doubt there's a sane manager who looks at that stat and go "yeah, I wish he make more tackles, we can do with 200 tackles next season". That implies squeezy bum times kind of defending.

I prefer him to continue becoming better at controlling the ball and going forward. He's been improving in that aspect this season. He's good at tackling, we already knew, now to be good at attacking. He can still improve he's still young.

 

[Skills]

What's crazy about that stat is how was he required to make 4.83 times more tackles than second guy on the list? has he always played for teams that sit back and let forwards have a go at them?
If it's just about the success rate, sure that's good. But I doubt there's a sane manager who looks at that stat and go "yeah, I wish he make more tackles, we can do with 200 tackles next season". That implies squeezy bum times kind of defending.

I prefer him to continue becoming better at controlling the ball and going forward. He's been improving in that aspect this season. He's good at tackling, we already knew, now to be good at attacking. He can still improve he's still young.

Pinnock has 2 seasons of PL football Vs Wan Bissakas 5. (This stat is for top 5 leagues since 17/18).

AWB is a full back - the average fullback makes 2.05 tackles per game.

Pinnocks a CB - the average CB makes 1.53 tackles a game.

 

[Kaos]

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Bit different for a CB I'd imagine.

 

[bosnian_red]

I used to think football was about scoring goals and making sure opponents don't score. Here we have a guy who even if he is positionally weak, makes sure the opponent doesn't score by taking the ball off them. But revolutionary geniuses here would make you believe that's a bad thing because he doesn't do it in a way they prefer to see.

TBF the criticism most had on was Bissaka was the off ball defending and him losing his marker. Up against a winger who likes running with the ball and taking you on, he's pretty much as good as there is. He really tends to struggle vs the pass and move types though. I remember Foden tore him apart a few times in the past precisely because of that.

 

[zaafi]

I’ll just put this here.

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The way you put it out like it's a fact It's a laughable and nonsense quote, because you need context. How does it make sense that every tackle is based on a previous mistake? Elaborate.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Bit different for a CB I'd imagine.

He mainly played left back

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

The way you put it out like it's a fact It's a laughable and nonsense quote, because you need context. How does it make sense that every tackle is based on a previous mistake? Elaborate.

I don’t know, you’d have to ask Maldini.

 

[Messier1994]

AWB’s strengths are somewhat deceptive because his by far biggest strength is his physic — but it doesn’t show in terms of being really fast storming down the pitch, having really quick feet or by being a complete unit who muscles guys off the ball so he isn’t accredited with it. What he does have — and what 90% of his game is built on — is a great long first couple of strides.

A dribble is really about getting past someone so far as so that you can position yourself and protect the ball from any recovery attempt. AWB almost always manage to “just” get dribbled 3/4 of the way, he manage to leap after someone going around him so that they can’t entirely shield the ball and after that making the actual tackle is possible. Especially the fast wingers are used to just leave their defender in the dust in those situations but AWB’s ability to go from facing like 1-2 a clock to turning around facing 6-7 and covering 3-4 meters is unique.

And his game with the ball is based on the same ability. He just runs straight into a defender creating a tempo change, and just before sometimes literary making contact, he puts the ball into an open area and get first to it.

I also think this says a lot about in what situations AWB work the best and of how ETH uses him. If you go by the yard stick that AWB is better defensively and Dalot is better offensively it could indicate that AWB should play against the better teams and Dalot against the worse teams — but I think ETHs usage of them two somewhat has been the opposite. AWB is at his best against physically weaker sides and Dalot is used more when we are pressed hard and must work to get possession and manage the ball better.

I get why we are looking at Frimpong because he would give us another gear all together offensively. He can move up and attack a defense and jump into holes as well as a high quality inverting winger. Especially a combo of Antony and Frimpong could be lethal.

But I have a bit of a hard time making up my mind as to who I would love on from, Dalot or AWB. I don’t rate Dalot as high as many others right now, but the reason for that is that I think his decision making and poise on the ball breaks down a bit too often. You want a player with his profile to be the calm presence who makes the right decisions when he gets the ball, and preferably he would have a even better longer passing game than what he does. But if anything those are things that can be improved with age.

 

[RedStarUnited]

The better we get the less we would need his 'skillset'.

It's a team game.

 

[We need an rvn]

See I don't get this argument at all. You watch the way we play under Ten Hag when we have the ball... if Antony goes wide, Wan-Bissaka needs to position himself inside, sometimes almost in a right side #10 sort of position. This has great benefits when we have the ball and are attacking, but one misplaced pass from a team mate and you will find you have to potentially sprint back into a defensive position and make a tackle. That's not Wan-Bissaka's fault or whomever is playing full back.

There are many aspects of defending though. You're talking of a case when we lose possession in the attacking 1/3 and he has to track back.

I remember when Rio played he hardly ever went to the ground to make a tackle and jst look at @Sparky Rhiwabon 's post of a famous Maldini quote. Hence questioning his positional acumen should be talked about as to the reason why he's so high up on the tackle list. And again, credit for him being so good at it, but is this stat covering up cracks in his game?