Alabama outlaws abortion

KirkDuyt

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adexkola said:
That makes no sense. To a prolife person, the concept of murder is extended to the fetus which they now see as a human being. Most human beings think murder is wrong, and that human beings should be restricted from murdering human beings. If you are pro life then the next step is logical.
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This is a good point. It's quite understandable that prolife people are so vocal about their point. If you think a fetus is a child, you think people are murdering children. Quite understandable that they don't want someone to have the freedom to decide whether or not they want to murder their children. If anything, I'm quite surprised some prolifers aren't more vocal about driving their point home. If a group of people went around murdering their children I imagine most of the world would rise in anger collectively?

Well unless it's in the 3rd world of course, then no one would bat an eye, but still.
 

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adexkola said:
That makes no sense. To a prolife person, the concept of murder is extended to the fetus which they now see as a human being. Most human beings think murder is wrong, and that human beings should be restricted from murdering human beings. If you are pro life then the next step is logical.
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I guess if you characterise the prolife position in exactly those terms, you're right, it may not be logically consistent.

However, I feel most people who are pro choice aren't pro choice because they love abortion (and not saying that is what you're saying either by the way).

For example, my wife has never had an abortion. I personally wouldnt be amazingly happy for that to happen in our relationship, though I would never tell her what to do with her body and would support her whatever she chose to do.

I'm not an O&G but if I was, I think I would really struggle to do abortions unless they were threatening the mothers life.

Those are my own personal opinions. I don't like abortion, in fact, I find it relatively nauseating.

However, I would never want to take away the ability to perform abortions across a country or state. For moral reasons, for ethical reasons, for safety reasons.

Is that not kind of simaltaneously both pro choice and pro life?
 

Dr. Dwayne

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It's pro-choice, a stance which gives you the freedom to be pro-life if you wish, without infringing on the freedoms of your fellow citizens.
 

Adisa

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If Dems can't energise their base over this issue and judges in general, there's no hope for America.
 

nimic

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I mean he's the pope. He's a fairly nice one, as popes go, but he's still the head of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church is going to do Catholic Curchy things.
 

crappycraperson

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He said even if doctors know that the fetus is not going to survive, they should let the pregnancy reach full term and try to deliver....
 

matherto

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How does nobody challenge even the basic mistakes like that in real time?

Consensual rape doesn't make any form of sense whether you're for abortion or against it.
 

Atze-Peng

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KirkDuyt said:
This is a good point. It's quite understandable that prolife people are so vocal about their point. If you think a fetus is a child, you think people are murdering children. Quite understandable that they don't want someone to have the freedom to decide whether or not they want to murder their children. If anything, I'm quite surprised some prolifers aren't more vocal about driving their point home. If a group of people went around murdering their children I imagine most of the world would rise in anger collectively?
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Emphathy can come a long way. Neither is "the bible/quran/talmud say so" a valid argument, nor is "but its [insertcurrentyear]".
Both sides of the coin would do well trying to understand the other side first before engaging in an argument. It really isn't rocket science to understand that, if people think that a fetus is a human being, then it is murder and thus reprehensible by most peoples moral compass. It also isn't rocket science to understand that, if people view the fetus as a clump of cells and flesh, then it is no big deal.

That's also where the discussion should start. What constitutes a human being/life?

And to answer your second part - I assume many prolifers hold back, because at this point most mainstream media has a clear left-wing bias. There are plenty of questionnaires among journalists in several western countries about it. So my assumption is that it feels like an uphill battle to most.


unchanged_lineup said:
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Despicable person.


adexkola said:
Meanwhile in Missouri...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/24/politics/missouri-abortion-bill-signed/index.html
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Well, there are plenty of pro-abortion democratic states. Missouri voted strongly red so it's fairly safe to assume that's what the majority of people in Missouri want. Same with Alabama. That's what democracy is about.


Blackwidow said:
In the answers was a text of a christian pastor that is worth reading
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It's all a matter of framing. Yes, you can frame it that unborns are a convenient group of people to advocate for. But you can just as much frame it that it is protecting those who can't protect themselves. Or in short, this statement is highly manipulative.
 

adexkola

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Atze-Peng said:
Well, there are plenty of pro-abortion democratic states. Missouri voted strongly red so it's fairly safe to assume that's what the majority of people in Missouri want. Same with Alabama. That's what democracy is about.
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1. In a lot of these states, the majority support the current abortion provisions, and these anti-constitutional laws being passed go against public sentiment.

2. A lot of these states are actually anti-democratic in that they promote voter discrimination and suppression of poor and minorities.

3. Democracy is more than the will of the majority. It should as much as possible not infringe on the basic rights of the minority. And these regulations are infringing on the basic rights of women to the autonomy of their body.
 

calodo2003

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Well, there are plenty of pro-abortion democratic states. Missouri voted strongly red so it's fairly safe to assume that's what the majority of people in Missouri want. Same with Alabama. That's what democracy is about.

Please name the pro-abortion Democratic states.

In many of the red states, the gerrymandering allows Republicans to be able to maintain control in the state legislatures, Missouri being one of the states, so your assumption that ‘it’s what the majority of people want’ is incorrect, almost ignorantly Pollyanna-ish.
 

jungledrums

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Dave89 said:
It's a shitty position, but the lesser of two bad outcomes. I assure you I'll never punish you for your father's actions either.
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You seem to care a lot about foetuses. Does your care extend to when they’re born? When they grow old? When their views differ from yours? Are you just a great humanitarian that loves all people and wishes for all people to flourish? How, then, can you discount the concerns of the actual women involved? Barbaric.
 

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adexkola said:
Which is why I think all male babies should be given vasectomies so that pregnancies only occur as deliberate acts
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Is this a possibility? Could it have repercussions for fertility later in life?

There's definitely an argument to be made for it if it's safe and feasible.
 

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jungledrums said:
You seem to care a lot about foetuses. Does your care extend to when they’re born? When they grow old? When their views differ from yours? Are you just a great humanitarian that loves all people and wishes for all people to flourish? How, then, can you discount the concerns of the actual women involved? Barbaric.
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To paraphrase what someone said earlier in this thread, foetuses don't talk back. It's easy to overlay any ideology you want on them.
 

Blackwidow

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This thread is not about limiting abortion to a special period of the pregnancy or necessary consultations you have to do as women before you can have an abortion. I am not in for a legal abortion without medical reasons after the 5th or 6th month. And I think it is in the interest of the women if she has to participate in a neutral consultation with somebody that tells her everything about possibilities for e.g. financial help after the birth of her kid before she can get the abortion.

The problems I have with that prolife (pro whose life anyways - it should be that of mother and child because you do not get lucky children from mothers that aren't) movement especially in the USA is that there is so much to do with the social conditions of families or especially single mothers in the USA - that for everybody that should be the priority. And to prevent that women come into the situation that they expect an unwanted child. It already starts with the number of pregnant teens - it does not really surprise that the numbers of that are especially high in the bible belt and midwest.
 

iammemphis

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adexkola said:
Which is why I think all male babies should be given vasectomies so that pregnancies only occur as deliberate acts
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Care to explain how on earth this would make sense? Like, reversing a vasectomy is extremely costly and the odds of it working are pretty slim, especially the longer it takes. How would you harvest sperm from them so they can have children in the future? You can’t be serious.
 

adexkola

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iammemphis said:
Care to explain how on earth this would make sense? Like, reversing a vasectomy is extremely costly and the odds of it working are pretty slim, especially the longer it takes. How would you harvest sperm from them so they can have children in the future? You can’t be serious.
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Tongue in cheek post.
 
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