All time British/Irish fantasy draft, S-F: Chester vs MJJ

Who will win with players at their peak?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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vs


............................ Team Chester ................................................................... Team MJJ ............................


Team Chester

Tactical remarks:

The most obvious difference from my set-up in the quarter final is that Haynes finds himself on the bench for this one. Why, ye ask? Well, mainly because I feel that too much of his game overlaps with that of Blanchflower. The latter will operate in a central midfield/playmaker role here – and it doesn't really make sense to field both a deep AND a No 10 style playmaker.

At the back my central trio remains unchanged, though their roles are slightly different: Woodburn and Wright are still stoppers (mainly) and Franklin is still a libero of sorts, but with two sidebacks in the form of Rice and Byrne, we can no longer call that defence an Italian job. It's still a fluent defensive set-up, though: When Franklin operates at his highest, one can, if one so wishes, regard him as a DM almost, with a more or less straight bank of four behind him.

My opponent will attack down the wings here to a greater extent than they have done in previous games, having acquired Matthews now. I feel reasonably well protected against that. If we regard this in the somewhat unnatural “battle” mode, I have Byrne/Woodburn on Matthews' side and Rice/Wright on Giggs'. This should be enough to keep those excellent wingers in check to the extent that they won't run amok. I also have Franklin to rely on in his free defensive role, plus the considerable defensive support of Duncan Edwards in particular, but also Blanchflower (who is anything but a passenger in a defensive sense).

If we enter “battle mode” again, then, I have seven players who are either brilliant, good or decent defenders against my opponent's four main attackers: I stress that this is an unnatural way to look at a football match, but it gives you an idea of where my boys stand in terms of general defensive capability. I can contain my opponent's wide players well enough – and I have (without dragging my midfielders into this) three central defenders to deal with two central attackers, neither of whom are pure strikers.

As has been the case in every match so far, I will rely more than anything on the versatility of the players I field. Duncan Edwards will play the box-to-box role more unshackled here than was the case in the last match, where he was specifically tasked with tracking his present teammate (the spoils of war, eh?), Jinky Johnstone, one of the most skillful players to ever play for a British side, widely recognized as the best Celtic player ever, which should ring a bell for those who have followed this draft. This is significant: Duncan will still work his arse off, doing a shift defensively, but he is now freer to venture forward, combine with Barnes on the left and provide an added distraction for my opponent's defenders to worry about. Rice and Byrne will push up when this is opportune and seek to combine with their wingers, giving me an extra dimension to the wide threat which I have largely lacked thus far.

The basic roles of the three designated/pure attackers remain as before: Dean will seek to move into dangerous positions either to finish directly (with his head from a cross, or with his feet) or to bring Barnes or Johnstone (or Edwards) into play with a simple pass. He will also seek to drag his marker wide, giving either Barnes or Johnstone the chance to cut inside (I have stated in each write-up thus far that Dean, the legendary finisher, is very much capable of doing just that – he isn't simply a box player and a poacher, contrary to what many might think).

Last but not least: Blanchflower. He will be the main director, the one mainly responsible for feeding the wingers balls to work with – and for that matter Dean, more centrally and directly, when this is the better alternative. His passing range, precision and game-reading ability make him a natural orchestrator – slap his dynamic overall game on top of that and I think (of course, what else could I think?) you have an ideal CM combo (an engine room with both range and first rate creativity) in Edwards and Danny B.

Key: Again, I would say, versatility. I have players who fit the bill – but who are capable of doing more than one thing at a time. Simple as that, really.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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Team MJJ


Some observations:-

1) My wingers are better than his so will create more chances but his striker is more deadlier so it will even out a bit. That being said lofthouse scored 30 goals for england in 33 games so while he might be inferior to dean, there isnt a lot into it in terms of taking their chances which will be the key here.
2) Midfield I will say I will probably edge it, with robson and souness both being compete midfielders who can defend and attack. In front of them is the best player on either side, charlton in his favoured role with pace out wide to give him the space needed.
3) Having two ball playing defenders is a huge plus, with the midfield being crowded as it is and the blistering pace I have on the flanks. I can very easily counter chester's attack with rio/raisbeck perfectly capable of finding my wingers when needed(Note: This isnt my primarily tactic but a facet of the game)

Overview

In the centre of defence, I have one of the most complete defenders of any generation, Rio Ferdinand and Alex Raisbeck On the flanks, I have Ray Wilson and Alf Sherwood.

Wilson was renowned for his vision, passing ability and surging runs down the left flank.He is going to form a deadly partnership with Ryan Giggs and help me tear teams apart. Interestingly Wilson was never booked for a foul till he was 32 and even that was for dissent. Giving one an idea of his pace and positioning.

On his opposite flank is Alf Sherwood or the king of sliding tackles. Sherwood was blessed with pace and positioning sense.Stanley Matthews described Sherwood as the most difficult opponent he ever played against. Here he is partnering that very mathews to hopefully glory.

All of my defenders are known for having excellent positioning and rarely being booked or giving fouls away. Having defenders who are excellent at timing their tactics is a huge plus while initiating quick counters and catching the other side out.

Both Robson and Charlton are both in their favourite positions, with Robson playing a box to box role while Chalrton is playing as the advanced playmaker.


On the flanks I have Giggs and Mathews, the wizard of the dribble.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/stoke/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8517000/8517497.stm



Lesser Known Player Profiles
Liverpool had on show the archetypal traditional centre-half, an all-action player capable of covering huge distances during play both in attack and defence, of breaking up moves and starting his own, of inspiring ten others to achieve more than the sum of their collective parts and of carrying the hopes and expectations of the fans on his own broad shoulders.

Alex Raisbeck was for 11 seasons the crown prince of Anfield, club captain, centre-half and object of wonder for fans across the country.

Today the club website suggests he would today ‘undoubtedly be a pin-up’ along the lines of a Fernando Torres (might need updating, that).

While I accept the point being made, it’s a little like when people say if Shakespeare were alive today he’d be writing for Eastenders. They’re reflecting the fact he was a popular dramatist at the time, but ignoring the huge gulf in class between Shakespeare’s words and those of BBC soap opera scripts – a gulf which time does nothing to narrow.

Torres was a key man for Liverpool, and at his best is among the most dangerous players in world football. The club came to depend on his talents too much, and here the contrast with Raisbeck is stark.

While the natural gifts of a willowy striker who at times seemed to move on air were always an unsteady foundation on which to build a long-term challenge for honours, in Raisbeck Liverpool had a rock.

Strong, tall for the time, quick in thought and deed and utterly fearless, Raisbeck most closely resembles Steven Gerrard at his most impressive, with Gerrard in turn carrying echoes of Graeme Souness. The fact he achieved high enough standards to drag otherwise patchy Liverpool sides to two league titles is a testament to his overwhelming influence as a player and a man.

In every facet of his life Alexander Galloway Raisbeck seemed to embody the kind of values fans love to see in players.

From the type of Kopite whose sole tactical exortation to the side is a primal scream of ‘gerrintodem’ to those of us who prefer the clever pass or artful switch of play to the brutal lunge, Raisbeck by all accounts catered for everyone.

The hero of the munich air disaster. Transferred to Manchester United for a world record fee for a goalkeeper. It says it all about the man that 4 months after the disaster he was voted the best goalkeeper at the 1958 World Cup ahead of the legendary Lev Yashin, when helping minnows Northern Ireland reach the quarter finals. Was renowned for his fearless style of goalkeeping.
http://thegoalkeeperco.com/features/harry-gregg-an-inadequate-tribute-to-an-ill-remembered-icon/

He had a knack of sliding in, hooking his leg around the ball, the winger would go arse over tit and Wilson would be up and away on the attack.
Wilson was renowned for his vision, passing ability and surging runs down the left flank. Interestingly wilson was never booked for a foul till he was 32 and even that was for dissent.

Alfred Sherwood was a former miner who threw himself into everything. Especially sliding tackles. So much so, the Cardiff City man was known as the 'king of the sliding tackles'. Sir Stanley Matthews, on the other hand, knew him simply as 'the most difficult opponent I ever played against'.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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Well, my first observation would be that you boys are fielding a player who isn't in your 15 man roster:

1. Bobby Charlton 2. Bryan Robson 3. Kenny Dalglish 4. Ray Wilson 5. Harry Gregg 6. Alex Raisbeck 7. Nat Lofthouse 8. Jack Charlton 9. Lee Dixon 10. Phil Thompson 11. G. Hoddle 12. Ryan Giggs 13. Rio Ferdinand 14. Stan Matthews 15. G. Souness
 

Chesterlestreet

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Jack Charlton?
Sherwood. He isn't listed. They sported Sherwood in the q-f, which means (or should mean, don't think it was ever stated) they discarded Whiteside after the group stage. What they declared after the q-f was that they discarded Beardsley, but they had to discard one more player in order to comply with the 15 man rule. I assumed that one man was Sherwood, given the list they posted (the one I cited above). No Sherwood on that list.
 

MJJ

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Voted Chester due to the rule break.

:lol: that's the lamest reason yet.
Sherwood. He isn't listed. They sported Sherwood in the q-f, which means (or should mean, don't think it was ever stated) they discarded Whiteside after the group stage. What they declared after the q-f was that they discarded Beardsley, but they had to discard one more player in order to comply with the 15 man rule. I assumed that one man was Sherwood, given the list they posted (the one I cited above). No Sherwood on that list.
I thought i
discarded Thompson from our list, my bad. don't know what happened there.
 

Chesterlestreet

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To make it clear: I based my write-up on the 15 man roster posted. I assumed they would field Dixon at RB and Dalglish up front. My claim (in the write-up) that they ain't playing any pure strikers is obviously based on this assumption.

Now, if they're allowed to field Sherwood, I ask the voters to disregard said claim. Not that it makes an immense difference - I still think my lads are capable of dealing with what's there. But fair is fair, I suppose. And you do base your tactics on the players available to your opponent.
 

MJJ

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yeah sorry I miscounted my players, the list I used had sherwood missing(took the last one annah posted) so thought only need one player to discard,
 

MJJ

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one thing I did not expect was for you to play 5 2 3, was expecting a 4 3 3. think this will give the initiative to my side and allow my side to have more control in the middle
where as it was previously pretty even.
 

Chesterlestreet

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one thing I did not expect was for you to play 5 2 3, was expecting a 4 3 3. think this will give the initiative to my side and allow my side to have more control in the middle
where as it was previously pretty even.
The middle, as it stands now, is pretty much a clash of the titans: Robbo and Souness versus Edwards and Blanchflower. That's pretty hard to call, as far as midfield "battles" go, I'd say. And I have Franklin pushing up into DM territory (as he did last match) too.
 

MJJ

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The middle, as it stands now, is pretty much a clash of the titans: Robbo and Souness versus Edwards and Blanchflower. That's pretty hard to call, as far as midfield "battles" go, I'd say. And I have Franklin pushing up into DM territory (as he did last match) too.
I regarded it pretty even with you having Haynes there and me with Charlton, but now will almost always have a man advantage whenever Charlton drops deep or if Franklin follows him space for my other attackers to exploit since he is perfectly capable of finding the right pass.
 

harms

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The middle, as it stands now, is pretty much a clash of the titans: Robbo and Souness versus Edwards and Blanchflower. That's pretty hard to call, as far as midfield "battles" go, I'd say. And I have Franklin pushing up into DM territory (as he did last match) too.
It's not fair to overlook Sir Bobby here.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I regarded it pretty even with you having Haynes there and me with Charlton, but now will almost always have a man advantage whenever Charlton drops deep or if Franklin follows him space for my other attackers to exploit since he is perfectly capable of finding the right pass.
Numerically that doesn't add up. Your other attackers, when Charlton drops deep, are three men. I have a bank of four behind Franklin when he pushes up. When I'm defending, that is - and I would be defending in a scenario where Charlton drops deep and tries his hand at orchestratin', so to speak.
 

Chesterlestreet

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It's not fair to overlook Sir Bobby here.
It's never fair to overlook Sir Bob. Don't think I did, though. If he wants to add Bobby to this hypothetical "midfield battle", then I can add Franklin just as easily.
 

harms

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It's never fair to overlook Sir Bob. Don't think I did, though. If he wants to add Bobby to this hypothetical "midfield battle", then I can add Franklin just as easily.
Well, you did add Franklin and there wasn't any word about Charlton in your post :rolleyes:
I believe this battle to be 3 vs 3, not just Edwards and Blanchflower vs Robson and Souness.
 

MJJ

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Numerically that doesn't add up. Your other attackers, when Charlton drops deep, are three men. I have a bank of four behind Franklin when he pushes up. When I'm defending, that is - and I would be defending in a scenario where Charlton drops deep and tries his hand at orchestratin', so to speak.
numerically no, but from a game pov it does. Franklin is in the middle so both your central cbs will be a bit wider than normal. now when Franklin pushes forward there will be more space there than is normally available. small margins but at this point it all counts.

also am not sure. how much he will be able to move forwaed with lofthouse there who will occupy his opposite number more than a false nine
 

MJJ

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Well, you did add Franklin and there wasn't any word about Charlton in your post :rolleyes:
I believe this battle to be 3 vs 3, not just Edwards and Blanchflower vs Robson and Souness.
and if you consider it as three vs three I have the edge there whereas it would have been more even with Haynes.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Well, you did add Franklin and there wasn't any word about Charlton in your post :rolleyes:
I believe this battle to be 3 vs 3, not just Edwards and Blanchflower vs Robson and Souness.
In what post? In my write-up I consider Charlton as a central attacker, and he is mentioned as such explicitly. That's the part if his game I'm most worried about. Considered as an orchestrator, I don't fear him to the same extent. He can drop deep and feed the wingers, I suppose (not that he's outstanding in that regard in this context, but yeah, sure) but I have those wingers reasonably well covered, I think.
 

Chesterlestreet

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numerically no, but from a game pov it does. Franklin is in the middle so both your central cbs will be a bit wider than normal. now when Franklin pushes forward there will be more space there than is normally available. small margins but at this point it all counts.

also am not sure. how much he will be able to move forwaed with lofthouse there who will occupy his opposite number more than a false nine
Aye - when Franklin remains in his default position, as the central defender. Which is a decent way to set up, defending against top notch wingers, I should say. When he pushes up, however, carrying the ball or harassing whoever carries the ball for you - Woodburn and Wright tuck in to form a bank of four behind the makeshift "DM" that is Franklin (as stated before).
 

MJJ

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Aye - when Franklin remains in his default position, as the central defender. Which is a decent way to set up, defending against top notch wingers, I should say. When he pushes up, however, carrying the ball or harassing whoever carries the ball for you - Woodburn and Wright tuck in to form a bank of four behind the makeshift "DM" that is Franklin (as stated before).
yup but that requires a pretty good understanding as to when he is going to push forward, etc so some times gaps can appear.

like I said small margins as both teams are pretty even so nitpicking.
 

Gio

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That's a hell of a midfield that MJJ has assembled. Kudos for that.

How would you describe your formation Chester? A 2-3-2-3?
 

Gio

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I'd love to see those four central midfielders do battle. Will Blanchflower live with Robson breaking forward? A lot of interesting head-to-head contests in this game. Jimmy Johnstone v Ray Wilson - surely they must have previous from internationals in the '60s? William Dean v Ferdinand/Raisbeck - are those the right 'type' of defenders to live with Dean's ability in the air? Ryan Giggs v Pat Rice - looks a wee bit one-sided? Franklin against Bobby Charlton I presume, that would be intriguing.
 

MJJ

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I don't think Ferdinand ever struggled with strikers who are good in the air, while raisbeck was known for his physical skills.
 

harms

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In what post? In my write-up I consider Charlton as a central attacker, and he is mentioned as such explicitly. That's the part if his game I'm most worried about. Considered as an orchestrator, I don't fear him to the same extent. He can drop deep and feed the wingers, I suppose (not that he's outstanding in that regard in this context, but yeah, sure) but I have those wingers reasonably well covered, I think.
The middle, as it stands now, is pretty much a clash of the titans: Robbo and Souness versus Edwards and Blanchflower. That's pretty hard to call, as far as midfield "battles" go, I'd say. And I have Franklin pushing up into DM territory (as he did last match) too.
Not really a serious issue - I was just stating that you have mentioned Franklin and failed to mention Charlton, which isn't fair as he, obviously, is going to contribute in midfield battle also. I agree that the attacking side of his game is more dangerous than the playmaking one though.
 

Chesterlestreet

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That's a hell of a midfield that MJJ has assembled. Kudos for that.

How would you describe your formation Chester? A 2-3-2-3?
Hehe, yeah - that ain't bad, actually. It's a custom thing, really. Byrne and Rice are certainly not wing backs in the traditional sense. Rice is pretty much your standard defensively-sound-but-still-useful-offensively type of RB. Byrne is an old school fullback who played as a winger in his youth and who liked to get forward even as a defender (so he wouldn't be a horrible fit for a wingback, actually, but I won't push that angle). Woodburn and Wright are CBs in a modern sense, fullbacks/centre halves in an old school sense. Franklin is a libero - I mean, that is exactly what he is, and his skill set makes that very plausible, as I see it.
 
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Annahnomoss

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Would love to know more about Raisbeck here. Can't see a central defender from 1900 competing to be one of the best defenders in this draft for a four man defense which he never played. Albeit a lot of things overlapping between defending back then and right now as much differs.
 

MJJ

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with both my wingers constantly beating cheaters fullbacks, it would require the central defenders to go wide a lot.

now the question is. a) can they handle that and b) can Franklin and the remaining cb stop charlton,lofthousr and co? I think not
 

Annahnomoss

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Didn't you say yourself in another game that you didn't believe that the wingers would in fact beat world class defenders so easily? Positional intelligence and all that.
 

Chesterlestreet

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with both my wingers constantly beating cheaters fullbacks, it would require the central defenders to go wide a lot.

now the question is. a) can they handle that and b) can Franklin and the remaining cb stop charlton,lofthousr and co? I think not
With respect, your own fullbacks would appear to have some trouble too. I find the term "constantly beating" perfectly ludicrous in this context, to put it bluntly, but even if we assume that Giggs and Matthews are capable of "constantly beating" my men, they still A) face the central trio of Woodburn, Franklin and Wright, B) have to capitalize on their "constant" advantage either by finishing themselves (neither of them are anything to write home about in that department) and/or C) have to deliver a ball to Lofthouse, mainly, Charlton, secondly.

Your argument is pretty much generic, given the context. If your wingers can beat my men "constantly", then my wingers can do the same to yours. I have two of the best wingers in British football history on the pitch, just as you do. Unless you propose that your fullbacks are significantly better than mine (and that would be, pardon my French, positively idiotic) your point is as moot as it gets.
 

MJJ

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With respect, your own fullbacks would appear to have some trouble too. I find the term "constantly beating" perfectly ludicrous in this context, to put it bluntly, but even if we assume that Giggs and Matthews are capable of "constantly beating" my men, they still A) face the central trio of Woodburn, Franklin and Wright, B) have to capitalize on their "constant" advantage either by finishing themselves (neither of them are anything to write home about in that department) and/or C) have to deliver a ball to Lofthouse, mainly, Charlton, secondly.

Your argument is pretty much generic, given the context. If your wingers can beat my men "constantly", then my wingers can do the same to yours. I have two of the best wingers in British football history on the pitch, just as you do. Unless you propose that your fullbacks are significantly better than mine (and that would be, pardon my French, positively idiotic) your point is as moot as it gets.
I think my wingers are better than yours so haVe more of a chance to beat the opposing full backs than vice versa.

I apologize on using the term constantly, let's change it to occasionally or with my wingers having space to run to. I think giggs has the pace advantage on rice which will count for lot while not sure about bryne but like you said converted winger up against one of the greatest so giving the edge to nathews

.
I know they are facing the central trio which was my point, that one of those three will be dragged wide. now are the other two good enough to contain lofthouse, Charlton and sometimes Robson?
 

BigDunc9

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Dean would get a lot of joy out of Ferdinand, I have seen him struggle against that type of striker many of times.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I see MJJ having a edge in midfield. Bobby C and Giggs are hard working and would help out in the middle, much more so that Franklin or Dean on Chester's team. Barnes will the one suited to to support middle in Chester's team and if he drops back, it will have direct impact in his attack threat.

I think MJJ shades this game.