All Time Chain Draft - QF1: Skizzo vs MJJ/crappy

With playes are career best, who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
None of them are creative to the extent you'd need in this competition. Your attacks would be pretty predictable.
And a passer will make it less predictable?

As long as the front three see the ball often enough, we wont lack for scoring opportunities. Those four I mentioned before are very capable of releasing any one of them. You also have three GOATs in attack who are all capable of scoring and creating chances with vieira joining in from his box to box role. Am struggling to see how that wont be enough in this competition.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
And a passer will make it less predictable?

As long as the front three see the ball often enough, we wont lack for scoring opportunities. Those four I mentioned before are very capable of releasing any one of them. You also have three GOATs in attack who are all capable of scoring and creating chances with vieira joining in from his box to box role. Am struggling to see how that wont be enough in this competition.
That's not really true, you'd probably struggle to score more than one in this game itself. You've plenty of players good/great on the ball but having creativity and vision is a different facet of the game.

As for your question, a creative one, yes.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
That's not really true, you'd probably struggle to score more than one in this game itself. You've plenty of players good/great on the ball but having creativity and vision is a different facet of the game.

As for your question, a creative one, yes.
Guess we will agree to disagree here since I think you are completely wrong about it and that part is laughable.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
We don't need a number 10. We basically need a better version of Kroo sor slightly more attack minded B2B to replace one of Deschamps/Vieira. Even without that, the side is good enough. Sammer and Vieira are no mugs. Both can link up with attacks pretty well. Henry was creative lynch pin for Arsenal raking up so many assists for nothing, Figo too is not just a supporting actor but capable of being the main man in any attack. His best at Barca came when he had the freedom to link up with the forwards from the right rather than play a traditional winger role.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Guess we will agree to disagree here since I think you are completely wrong about it and that part is laughable.
Not really, you are not really playing against a Sunday league defence here, are you. To unlock the defence Skizzo started with you'd have needed a far more creative player than anyone in your ranks. You are heavily relying on just giving the ball to the front three and hoping they come up with some individual brilliance, rather than having someone who controls the tempo of the game and executes a variety of attacks. But yea anyway, to each their own.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
We don't need a number 10. We basically need a better version of Kroo sor slightly more attack minded B2B to replace one of Deschamps/Vieira. Even without that, the side is good enough. Sammer and Vieira are no mugs. Both can link up with attacks pretty well. Henry was creative lynch pin for Arsenal raking up so many assists for nothing, Figo too is not just a supporting actor but capable of being the main man in any attack. His best at Barca came when he had the freedom to link up with the forwards from the right rather than play a traditional winger role.
I agree that Figo is the closest you can come to having a creative force in the team but it ain't enough, not for me at least. Anyway you like MJJ have mixed up having ability on the ball to creativity.
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
While I agree @MJJ and @crappycraperson would win this game, I'd agree with the above comments.

Tbh, I don't think they should have beaten @Pat_Mustard. I didn't vote in that game to avoid any accusations of backing my AM blindly...However, the attack was a somewhat similar level (edged to mjj), but the midfield was a gulf apart.

Off topic somewhat I know, but it ties somewhat in relying solely on that front 3 for everything. They need a much better supporting cast in behind to go all the way imo.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
Then what were Bergkamp and Pires? Number of assists don't directly correlate to creativity, less so for someone who took set pieces.
They both played a supporting part of course. Assists are a good indicator of someone's creativity for sure, not the only indicator though. Henry is capable of creating and he will have support from Marcelo on his wing.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
While I agree @MJJ and @crappycraperson would win this game, I'd agree with the above comments.

Tbh, I don't think they should have beaten @Pat_Mustard. I didn't vote in that game to avoid any accusations of backing my AM blindly...However, the attack was a somewhat similar level (edged to mjj), but the midfield was a gulf apart.

Off topic somewhat I know, but it ties somewhat in relying solely on that front 3 for everything. They need a much better supporting cast in behind to go all the way imo.
And Edgar should have beaten, correction.. would have beaten you if not for that brain freeze. It is a much of muchness, I did not criticize Pat's side much because it was definitely one of the best ones in the draft. I said then that 4 best teams drew each other ( other 2 being Anto's and Joga's). But that's how random draw works. I don't believe we won against Pat due to our front 3 as well, he had Charlton and Law up front, those two are easily bigger vote winners than anyone we had.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
Skizzo has a great team, but anybody facing MJJ/Crappy would lose this round and they'll probably walk the draft too unless something drastic happens. With Figo and Henry there I think they have enough playmaking and creativity behind them to feed Romario with enough balls as well. I just think it would be positive for Figo and Henry to not have a number 10 taking up the central space and the fact that Romario won't occupy that space either just helps.
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,289
The midfield is certainly industrious and lacks a bit of flair but I don't think the team lacks creativity and it certainly wouldn't struggle to score goals IMO.

Romario, Figo and Henry are all capable of running at defenders and creating chances, whilst Sammer, Vieira and Lahm are more than capable of playing out from the back and getting the ball into that front three.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
I agree that Figo is the closest you can come to having a creative force in the team but it ain't enough, not for me at least. Anyway you like MJJ have mixed up having ability on the ball to creativity.
That Arsenal side also functioned without Bergkamp. A lot of times Wiltord lined up alongside Henry and they still stretched and scored against many a teams. Don't think either Ljunberg or Pires are as creative as Figo. Same with United, pre 2000 Butt lined up alongside Keane plenty of times. So even without Scholes missing we functioned pretty well with just Beckham and Giggs primarily creating for the side. Brasil 2002 pretty much relied on their front 3 and that's a good comparison since Henry's role is similar to Rivaldo's while Figo will provide the width on right while Goofy had the freedom then to go either side and finally peak Romario is more capable on ball than that version of Ronaldo. Only thing that side had attacking wise on us were the full backs. Carlos is much upgraded version of Marcelo while I don't think Lahm is that inferior to Cafu.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
Are you seriously saying Bergkamp was Henry's deputy when talking about creativity? You have such a weird description of Henry. :D
:lol: I will be honest.. I pulled a bit of anto when it came to Bergkamp in the last draft. I don't think he was that critical to Arsenal's success post 2000.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
That Arsenal side also functioned without Bergkamp. A lot of times Wiltord lined up alongside Henry and they still stretched and scored against many a teams. Don't think either Ljunberg or Pires are as creative as Figo. Same with United, pre 2000 Butt lined up alongside Keane plenty of times. So even without Scholes missing we functioned pretty well with just Beckham and Giggs primarily creating for the side. Brasil 2002 pretty much relied on their front 3 and that's a good comparison since Henry's role is similar to Rivaldo's while Figo will provide the width on right while Goofy had the freedom then to go either side and finally peak Romario is more capable on ball than that version of Ronaldo. Only thing that side had attacking wise on us were the full backs. Carlos is much upgraded version of Marcelo while I don't think Lahm is that inferior to Cafu.
There is no shortage of teams that won games and trophies without having ample creativity in the team, but that wasn't my point here. I already said you'd win this game most times.

:lol: I will be honest.. I pulled a bit of anto when it came to Bergkamp in the last draft. I don't think he was that critical to Arsenal's success post 2000.
:nono:
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
And Edgar should have beaten, correction.. would have beaten you if not for that brain freeze. It is a much of muchness, I did not criticize Pat's side much because it was definitely one of the best ones in the draft. I said then that 4 best teams drew each other ( other 2 being Anto's and Joga's). But that's how random draw works. I don't believe we won against Pat due to our front 3 as well, he had Charlton and Law up front, those two are easily bigger vote winners than anyone we had.
:lol:

Stop getting your panties in a bunch. Fecks sake you get so dramatic when anyone says anything not entirely positive about your team.

I've said multiple times your team is better than mine here.

I told Edgar himself that he should have won that game. No one is in any denial about that. You only bring it up to puff your chest and show off your big boy pants.

All I said was I think you need more behind that front 3 to go all the way.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
There is no shortage of teams that won games and trophies without having ample creativity in the team, but that wasn't my point here. I already said you'd win this game most times.
Our side is very much a functional one than a super creative one. Sammer's dropping into defense along with 2 tough midfielders in front allows us to sit deep and absorb pressure and then hit the opposition on counter where the front 3 will get the chance to take on defenders 1 v 1. If necessary, Sammer as a MF will allow us to dominate the proceedings and build up attack using the front 3 and the full backs. We can play Pep who will be that creative player you are looking for but I don't believe that would be a better side who will win most contests.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Not to mention that henry has an absurd number of assists for a striker given his short time in the PL, cant remember the exact number but its close to a 100 in 7/8/9 seasons while vieira was a very good short passer who opened up a lot of space with his runs as well.

While marcelo gets a very healthy amount of assists for a defender as well, think he led la liga in assists for defenders last year or the year before.

The whole argument is absurd unless aldo thinks that skizzo team wont be able to score at all during the duration of the match.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
Not to mention that henry has an absurd number of assists for a striker given his short time in the PL, cant remember the exact number but its close to a 100 in 7/8/9 seasons while vieira was a very good short passer who opened up a lot of space with his runs as well.

The whole argument is absurd unless aldo thinks that skizzo team wont be able to score at all during the duration of the match.
I don't think Aldo is talking just about this match, he is talking in general.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
:lol:

Stop getting your panties in a bunch. Fecks sake you get so dramatic when anyone says anything not entirely positive about your team.

I've said multiple times your team is better than mine here.

I told Edgar himself that he should have won that game. No one is in any denial about that. You only bring it up to puff your chest and show off your big boy pants.

All I said was I think you need more behind that front 3 to go all the way.
Ha! It was just a small dig :D

I did tell MJJ we would lose the match against Pat.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
He thinks we will struggle to score more than a goal in this match and we will win this match ergo skizzo's side doesnt score at all.
Yeah, both teams started with pretty defensive setups, it would have been a 1-0 to you as far as predictions go.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Our side is very much a functional one than a super creative one. Sammer's dropping into defense along with 2 tough midfielders in front allows us to sit deep and absorb pressure and then hit the opposition on counter where the front 3 will get the chance to take on defenders 1 v 1. If necessary, Sammer as a MF will allow us to dominate the proceedings and build up attack using the front 3 and the full backs. We can play Pep who will be that creative player you are looking for but I don't believe that would be a better side who will win most contests.
Yeah I am not disputing your ability to win this game, as I've already said a couple of times. I touched upon a very specific aspect that is creativity and that is clearly lacking here. Pep is a creative player, of course but a very specific one that needs a bit of setting up the team in specific ways to work, but I won't say a player of that style is the only way to resolve that issue in your team.
The game is over so a bit futile to discuss these things but you ain't getting many 1v1s with three attacking players against a bank of 5 defenders shielded by two hard working CMs.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,341
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
That Arsenal side also functioned without Bergkamp. A lot of times Wiltord lined up alongside Henry and they still stretched and scored against many a teams. Don't think either Ljunberg or Pires are as creative as Figo. Same with United, pre 2000 Butt lined up alongside Keane plenty of times. So even without Scholes missing we functioned pretty well with just Beckham and Giggs primarily creating for the side. Brasil 2002 pretty much relied on their front 3 and that's a good comparison since Henry's role is similar to Rivaldo's while Figo will provide the width on right while Goofy had the freedom then to go either side and finally peak Romario is more capable on ball than that version of Ronaldo. Only thing that side had attacking wise on us were the full backs. Carlos is much upgraded version of Marcelo while I don't think Lahm is that inferior to Cafu.
Yeah I think it's a difficult one. Sammer can pass well, Figo is very creative and can drift, I see the Brazil comparison but Rivaldo and Ronaldinho were endlessly inventive in a way that Henry has never been. The midfield's fine as it is IMO - it's going to be difficult to upgrade that midfield while retaining your current shining lights. Depends if this is a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-1-2. If it's the former then Deschamps as the watercarrier doing a Deiter Eilts and covering Sammer, Vieira doing the box-to-box stuff, and Figo roaming horizontally and into the channels is a well balanced arrangement. It's a strong team and favourites for the tournament for me.
 

Cal?

CR7 fan
Joined
Mar 18, 2002
Messages
34,976
Wow... shockingly one-sided affair... whilst I do prefer MJJ/crappy's side, I didn't think this would be 23-6...
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,341
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
It's a pity Skizzo couldn't get any real upgrades. His first-round team is arguably better than this one.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
@Skizzo, why do you have some chap called Sivoro on the pitch? Also, I only see Pirri instead of José Martínez Sánchez "Pirri"
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
It's a pity Skizzo couldn't get any real upgrades. His first-round team is arguably better than this one.
Zanetti was waiting for me :p

@Skizzo, why do you have some chap called Sivoro on the pitch? Also, I only see Pirri instead of José Martínez Sánchez "Pirri"
:lol: because it's an absolute fecking nightmare using sharemytactics.com on my phone
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,810
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Oh man...brutal scoreline that doesn't really reflect Skizzo's quality, particularly with Sivori/Charles up front, Hierro/Pirri in midfield and Cannavaro/Santamaria at central defence. I can't even vote to even it up a bit as I'm still an AM of sorts for Skizzo, albeit one of the worst absentee AMs in the history of draft games since MJJ/Crappy beat me in their last match. I must have took that loss harder than I realised as I've barely looked at the draft since :lol:.

While I agree @MJJ and @crappycraperson would win this game, I'd agree with the above comments.

Tbh, I don't think they should have beaten @Pat_Mustard. I didn't vote in that game to avoid any accusations of backing my AM blindly...However, the attack was a somewhat similar level (edged to mjj), but the midfield was a gulf apart.

Off topic somewhat I know, but it ties somewhat in relying solely on that front 3 for everything. They need a much better supporting cast in behind to go all the way imo.
And Edgar should have beaten, correction.. would have beaten you if not for that brain freeze. It is a much of muchness, I did not criticize Pat's side much because it was definitely one of the best ones in the draft. I said then that 4 best teams drew each other ( other 2 being Anto's and Joga's). But that's how random draw works. I don't believe we won against Pat due to our front 3 as well, he had Charlton and Law up front, those two are easily bigger vote winners than anyone we had.
Ha! It was just a small dig :D

I did tell MJJ we would lose the match against Pat.
:D That was an awfully harsh draw for both of us really. I did feel I had the quality to shade that match, particularly in midfield, and I loved the balance of my team, but it was a 50/50 for me going in. Strangely, I don't think Law is much of a vote winner at all in draft matches. Invariably seems to end up on the losing side in close matches, and despite the best efforts of @Joga Bonito and I at spamming footage of him, he generally attracts very little discussion in match threads.

Thago Silva playing as a tucked in RB/RCB was a masterstroke though. I'm not a fan of Sammer getting used in a back four but that was a brilliant work-around, and it looked so much better when it was laid out in the match thread than I was expecting. That said, I much prefer your set up here and you'd be good value for a win against any team in the competition really. There's little arguing against Sammer and Kohler in a back three, and whilst I dont rate him as highly as some Thiago Silva is a fine foil. Marcelo initially looks a weak link in an all-time draft but as a wing-back with good protection he's a fine fit really, and on the other side Lahm and Figo can both go outside or come infield when building attacks which gives nice variety.

As far as creativity goes, its not quite perfect at this stage but far from a terminal weakness. With Sammer as a libero, Deschamps looks upgradable for a more expansive player. There's a few knocking around who are basically as good defensively while being much better all-rounders, but whether they're available for you I'm not sure.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,243
That was an awfully harsh draw for both of us really. I did feel I had the quality to shade that match, particularly in midfield, and I loved the balance of my team, but it was a 50/50 for me going in. Strangely, I don't think Law is much of a vote winner at all in draft matches. Invariably seems to end up on the losing side in close matches, and despite the best efforts of @Joga Bonito and I at spamming footage of him, he generally attracts very little discussion in match threads.
Tbh, I don't think they should have beaten @Pat_Mustard. I didn't vote in that game to avoid any accusations of backing my AM blindly...However, the attack was a somewhat similar level (edged to mjj), but the midfield was a gulf apart.

Agreed with this. Had Pat as the dark horse for this draft and I was pretty shocked that he went out. He had the more balanced team (apart from 2 defensive FBs but the quality of his forwards and attacking midfielders more than made up for that) and better quality overall, with better individual match ups. Rosato was bit of an unknown but Romario was playing as a lone CF (with Ruggeri there, still not an ideal match-up but a decent one) and didn't have much support - runs in from behind/goals (Kroos, Viera, Guardiola) and Henry would have been well-shackled by Vogts. Pat on the other hand had Schuster-Charlton against Viera-Guardiola and had great match-ups with Kempes against Thiago and Simonsen against Marcelo. Law was the perfect center-forward to bring it all together as well and didn't necessarily need to score a goal to have a good game in that context (playing as a foil and help exploit Charlton, Simonsen and Kempes goalscoring abilities and enhance their favourable match-ups).

As crappy said, they should have lost that one. Also, MJJ/crappy could do with a playmaker/creative influence in midfield. With Sammer playing as the libero and Vieira's physicality in midfield, perhaps Guardiola would have been more suitable than Deschamps, unless they are playing on the counter and are up against a monstrous midfield. Probably the favourites going forward, once they upgrade Marcelo and get that midfielder imo.