All Time Chain Draft - R1: MJJ/crappy vs Pat_Mustard

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

................................. Team MJJ/crappy ................................................................................. Team Pat_Mustard ................................


Team MJJ/crappy

Attack -

The best forward in this draft pool, Romario, leads the line. A brief preview of what he is capable of.

Spoiler

Figo will run the right wing, capable of taking on any full back in this draft. The attack is rounded off by Henry as a left forward. Combined together are handful for any defense complied in this draft. With Marcelo's support, Henry will be cutting in from the left and linking up with Romario. Both he and Figo are capable of creating from either the wing or through the middle. Absence of a designated number 10 in 433 will allow Henry to play a more free role from the left and influence the game more rather than just play as a traditional left inner forward. We have 3 match winners in attack. All 3 attackers are capable of winning the game on their own.

Midfield -

A classic 3 man midfield in 433 with Pep playing the deep lying play maker role, akin to the one he played for Barca. He is flanked by Vieira and Kroos. Kroos has excelled for Bayern and his country in a similar role. A well rounded CM who will contribute to every aspect of the game. Vieira will add steel to the midfield. Overall, the 3 combine to cover every aspect of the midfield. Pep will switch the play from the back plus provide cover in front of the defense, Kroos will keep the game ticking in the midfield and join the attack when possible, Vieira will play his usual B2B role.

Defense -

Kohler, one of the best man markers in the game's history, anchors the defense with Ballon'dor winner Matthias Sammer. They compliment each other perfectly, both will be hard as nails to go up against and Sammer will additionally be capable of stepping out of the defense if needed and play the ball from the back. Thiago Silva will play the tucked in right back role while Marcelo will play his usual left wing back role. The presence of 3 solid defenders at the back will give him the freedom to provide an outlet on the left. Final wall of defense is Oliver Kahn himself, a top 10 GK of all time.

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TEAM PAT_MUSTARD

Tactical Overview:

A well-balanced 4-3-3, with Rosato and Ruggeri flanked by two of the greatest ever defensive full backs in Vogts and Schnellinger. Dino Zoff completes a formidable backline. We deploy a dedicated DM ahead of them in Americo Gallego, an ever-present during Argentina’s victorious World Cup 1978 campaign, and a Copa Libertadores winner with River Plate 8 years later.

This strong base will afford my matchwinners ahead of them considerable freedom. Bernd Schuster and Sir Bobby Charlton will be pulling the strings in midfield, while Denis Law, Mario Kempes and Allan Simonsen form an explosive, well-rounded and truly fluid attacking trio.

How The Game Will Be Won:

This is a fairly brutal first round draw as MJJ and Crappy have drafted one of the strongest squads in the competition, with that Sammer/Kohler axis in defence and Romario up front being particularly formidable. That said…

Square Pegs in Round Holes?

I’ve found it hard to identify a formation that will allow them to get the best out of all their players. Sammer’s brilliant peak was as a libero in a 3-5-2, and two up front would allow Henry to play as a central striker, but in the absence of a plausible right wing back I expect that they’ll have to play a 4-3-3 with Thiago Silva out of position at right back and Sammer as an orthodox centre back rather than in the libero role where he excelled. With Marcelo a stand out weak link at left back, their defence looks rather less than the sum of its parts.

Henry playing on the left of a three man attack has been debated at length in previous draft games and will be revisited later in the match thread, but suffice to say that Henry’s peak came in a more central role, with much more selfless partners up front than Romario.

Midfield Superiority:

I’d argue that Bobby Charlton and Bernd Schuster are clearly the best two midfielders on the pitch here, and in Americo Gallego they have a water-carrier who has proven his mettle at the highest level of the game. I don’t see Guardiola/Kroos/Vieira being remotely able to dominate possession against this unit, and out of possession they’ll seriously struggle – Guardiola and Kroos look very pedestrian off the ball against players of Charlton and Schuster’s calibre.

Attacking Fluidity:

My attacking trio of Kempes, Law and Simonsen are as dynamic as they come, with all three capable of operating across the frontline. Kempes, in particular, seemed to play in pretty much every attacking role at some stage in the 1978 World Cup. Law will nominally lead the line here, and as he drops deep and pulls wide Kempes will be attacking the box, with Charlton in particular surging forward too. Simonsen will provide much of the orthodox width, and his superb dribbling will give Marcelo twisted blood here. As the weakest defender and most attacking full-back on the pitch, I see us targeting Marcelo’s wing regularly, either passing in behind him when he’s caught upfield or simply overwhelming him with the dribbling and movement of our front three. With Kohler presumably having to come across to cover for him, MJJ/Crappy’s defence will be pulled out of position repeatedly.

Dealing With Romario:

With Henry presumably not playing in his ideal role and both Henry and Figo well-marshalled by Vogts and Schnellinger respectively, Romario is MJJ and Crappy’s biggest threat. Ruggeri is as rugged and tenacious as they come, but Romario’s wicked acceleration and movement will doubtless pose him problems. Cutting off the supply of potential through balls will be key here. I’m confident that Kroos will have a quiet game versus Gallego and Schuster. Guardiola springing Romario is the bigger concern, and to that end I’m fortunate to have two exceptionally hard-working forwards in Law and the three-lunged Kempes. They’ll play an important role in pressing him when we lose possession to minimise the chances of a defence-splitting through ball on the counter.

Overall, I feel that MJJ and Crappy are going to struggle to find a formation that doesn't involve playing key players out of position. Combined with a clear quality differential in midfield and a defensive weak link in Marcelo that will be repeatedly attacked, I feel my team has a decisive edge here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Game on ~

@MJJ @crappycraperson @Pat_Mustard

All the best!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Rado_N @Damien @Raoul

Could you please help to put up a poll? Thanks

With players at their peaks, who will win?
Team MJJ/crappy
Team Pat_Mustard

votes visible without voting
votes can be changed
24 hours

 

[crappycraperson]

I find it odd that Pat has talked about us not fitting the players in their best roles.

Neither of Simonsen or Kempes are traditional wingers. Not sure you are playing them in their best role. In fact Henry is easily playing in far more suitable role for him here. Unlike the Barca 433 where he had to play the supporting role to Ronaldinho or Messi, here he could play the main role and influence the play much more from a central position as well.

I also do not understand criticism for Sammer. He will be fine in this role, other liberos from history like Sciera are frequently employed as center backs without being criticized. His experience as libero/midfielder means he is comfortable stepping out from defense, something the presence of Kohler and Thiago, capable of tucking in and covering, will allow him to do.

 

[Gio]

Think this is the highest quality match-up so far. Two very strong teams. Early thoughts:

• Simonsen attacking the space behind Marcelo looks like a fruitful route to goal
• What sort of player is Rosato and how does he deal with the pace of that front line, with particular reference to Romario?
• Would prefer Kempes a bit narrower - only a mentalist puts him out wide left.
• MJJ/Crappy will play some stunning and slick football when they get hold of it.
• Off the ball I'd be concerned that they have a number of passengers as the likes of Romario, Henry, Kroos, and even Pep and Figo weren't the most industrious or effective.
• It's a bit risky in an all-time draft to have a player operating clearly out of position in Thiago Silva. But Silva's all-round qualities mean he could do a passable job there

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Is voting not open? And did @rimaldo influence this?

 

[crappycraperson]

Think this is the highest quality match-up so far. Two very strong teams. Early thoughts:

• Simonsen attacking the space behind Marcelo looks like a fruitful route to goal
• What sort of player is Rosato and how does he deal with the pace of that front line, with particular reference to Romario?
• Would prefer Kempes a bit narrower - only a mentalist puts him out wide left.
• MJJ/Crappy will play some stunning and slick football when they get hold of it.
• Off the ball I'd be concerned that they have a number of passengers as the likes of Romario, Henry, Kroos, and even Pep and Figo weren't the most industrious or effective.
• It's a bit risky in an all-time draft to have a player operating clearly out of position in Thiago Silva. But Silva's all-round qualities mean he could do a passable job there

Regarding Silva, this is not akin to Cal playing Leonardo in a CM role. Thiago is not playing in his best role but he is by no means a liability. I also think you are being harsh on Kroos there, he has been a hard-worker for both Madrid and Germany.

And yes, it is a massive shame we drew each other. Alongside anto-Joga probably the 4 strongest side are facing each other.

 

[Gio]

Regarding Silva, this is not akin to Cal playing Leonardo in a CM role. Thiago is not playing in his best role but he is by no means a liability. I also think you are being harsh on Kroos there, he has been a hard-worker for both Madrid and Germany.

And yes, it is a massive shame we drew each other. Alongside anto-Joga probably the 4 strongest side are facing each other.

I like the synergy between Guardiola and Kroos here. They'll be gorgeous on the ball. And it's not really a question about their work rate. But they'll offer flimsy resistance off the ball and Vieira will have to work overtime to keep tabs on Schuster and Charlton.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Rado_N @Damien @Raoul

Could you please help to put up a poll? Thanks

With players at their peaks, who will win?
Team MJJ/crappy
Team Pat_Mustard

votes visible without voting
votes can be changed
24 hours

@Rado_N @Damien @Raoul help?

 

[diarm]

Bloody hell this is a game and a half. I'm leaning towards MJJ/Crappy because I just don't think there's a weakness there. They have immense quality all over the pitch but then so does Pat.

I think Henry and Romario could work superbly here. When I look back at Henry, I see him at his best attacking the box from the left hand edge and his pace, coupled with Romario's brilliance will be devastating here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What about making that a back 3 + Marcelo? Sammer being libero would make him more effective and Thiago as RCB is better to digest than as RB . Not that he's going to provide width there anyways! And they are not facing traditional wingers, better to beef up central defence.

Schuster at least has Vieira to contend, but I think Bobby C will have a very good game against Kroos, when they have the ball. Not sure on Rostao and Gallejo, but I'd fancy Charlton/Law to nick a goal here.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Regarding Silva, this is not akin to Cal playing Leonardo in a CM role. Thiago is not playing in his best role but he is by no means a liability. I also think you are being harsh on Kroos there, he has been a hard-worker for both Madrid and Germany.

And yes, it is a massive shame we drew each other. Alongside anto-Joga probably the 4 strongest side are facing each other.

Totally agree there, regardless of my criticisms in the OP. I was gutted when I read the draw! I've been out for most of the evening but I'll be around to take part soon.

 

[Skizzo]

First off, couple of great teams. Both came from different situations. Mjj/crappy drafting fantastically, then getting a bit screwed at the end. Pat picking up a team halfway and putting a great finishing touch to something that could have ended up a train wreck.

As for the match up, I'm not too familiar with Rosato, or how he would deal/cope with Romario. Gallego is another I don't know much about, but there's no number 10 there to match up directly.

Henry popping up in the left in a crappy team is a bit odd for all the criticism he gives him. I read the part about not being a left winger, but I wouldn't count Simonsen or Kempes as traditional wingers either. I'll let you guys duke out about that

Simonsen behind Marcelo could be fruitful, and I see Charlton and Schuster having quite a bit of joy in the midfield. Also not sold on Silva where he is, but he is capable of pulling it off with his skill set, just think it makes the whole back line look "off" somehow.

That being said, a Figo, Henry and Romario front 3 looks quite handy.

I'll have to look up more about the two players in pats team to see how they would cope, but I see both teams scoring here.

 

[Rado_N]

@Rado_N @Damien @Raoul help?

Done, not been on tonight sorry, I swear I'm the only one who responds to these things.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

why not Sammer as defensive rightback? Surely he would be more comfortable there and you get peak T. Silva in his natural position....

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I find it odd that Pat has talked about us not fitting the players in their best roles.

Neither of Simonsen or Kempes are traditional wingers. Not sure you are playing them in their best role. In fact Henry is easily playing in far more suitable role for him here. Unlike the Barca 433 where he had to play the supporting role to Ronaldinho or Messi, here he could play the main role and influence the play much more from a central position as well.

I also do not understand criticism for Sammer. He will be fine in this role, other liberos from history like Sciera are frequently employed as center backs without being criticized. His experience as libero/midfielder means he is comfortable stepping out from defense, something the presence of Kohler and Thiago, capable of tucking in and covering, will allow him to do.

Sammer being competent and Sammer at his peak are two very different propositions. For me, his interpretation of the libero role extended way beyond just stepping out of defence or being a good ball-playing centre back. There was a great video of a performance vs Wales that illustrated this perfectly that has been taken down, but he literally contributed in every phase of play at his best. Just to show I'm not just trying to win votes here, I made these posts to that effect as a neutral awhile back:

Without considering the picks, Sammer and Desailly have to be swapped around. Sammer had one of the iconic Euro tournaments marauding up to centre forward from his sweeper position. Why maroon him as an orthodox centre half?

As regards Sammer, this video somewhat expresses how I remember him playing the libero role - breaking forward with driving runs and one-twos to take shots, dropping right back into defence as needed to anticipate threats (1:27 ish), and providing a strong physical presence in the midfield battle (2:15ish).

Whether I'm right or wrong, I've been pretty consistent with my stance on Sammer.

Thiago Silva at right back speaks for itself really. I appreciate that you're not selling him as Cafu and that him stepping infield to cover for Sammer is a nice strategy, but in an all-time draft between two such strong sides him playing so blatantly out of position is always going to be a major talking point. I'm open to correction here but I don't ever recall him playing as a right back for a sustained run of quality performances or even any single brilliant big game performances, although of course I'm open to correction. Henry post incoming, with incriminating evidence of course

 

[Annahnomoss]

Very risk taking and creative from Crappy/MJJ here. Thiago Silva started off as a right winger in fact, but himself said he wasn't talented enough to make it there and he was pushed further and further back. Kind of a backhanded comment where he shows he's not completely unsure on how to play down the right flank but also admits he wasn't talented enough to make it there and far from making it as a good enough option for an all-time draft of course.

Not so bothered about Sammer and Kohler, clearly Sammer didn't make a name for himself as a pure centre back and he is far from the player he was in his best role. Figo is one of those wide midfielders who relies a lot on a full back to help him stretch the opponents and he wouldn't be beating Schnellinger and cut in on goal very often but he'd still do a job providing great crosses and that isn't too shabby when you have Henry and Romario on the receiving end.

I rate Marcelo though, offensively he's a beast and he'd play great with Henry on that side of the field so in possession MJJ/Crappy has a great side. Off the ball I can see Guardiola and Kroos struggle with a player like Charlton who will break through the middle with his dribbling runs. Pat's team looks very impressive in every way except some slight lack of width but at the same time it is easy to be critical of players we do know like Sammer/Thiago who are being played out of position while we can assume Gallego/Rosato had flaws that could be exposed as well.

Will need to look them up to get a more just picture on it all.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

As for Henry as a left-sided forward in a three man attack, I'm going to choose the path of least resistance and just point out some of the (very good) points Crappy has made about him in similar set ups. I'm trying to avoid the many examples that relate more closely to his Barcelona role:

As tasty as Cal's attacking trio might look, I don't see them as a complimentary at all.

Henry worked best with a striker who dropped deep to let him attack the line from the left when counter attacking, not when he was the one dropping deep to supply someone like Torres.

If you mean playing Henry on the left is his favoured position then that is absurd. He hardly played as a left winger for Arsenal. His peak was a forward who had pretty much the free role but he still was the further forward given that his usual striking partner was DB who dropped back into the midfield. He played ok for Barca on the left but that was far from his best form.

The pace of Henry and Romario is still a massive threat here of course, but its disingenuous to claim now that Henry is playing in his peak role when you've been so vocal about it in the past, as recently as the last draft where you felt Skizzo and I should have went for Giggs instead of Henry in the reinforcement rounds.

 

[green_smiley]

Just want to point out that I don't see any issue with Sammer as CB. Him being famous as sweeper/libero doesn't mean he can only play at back 3 or 5

Also no issue with Thiago Silva at RB as he is not dealing with out-and-out winger, as far as position is concerned. Whether he has enough defensive skill to cope with Kempes, is another subject to debate

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Just want to point out that I don't see any issue with Sammer as CB. Him being famous as sweeper/libero doesn't mean he can only play at back 3 or 5

Also no issue with Thiago Silva at RB as he is not dealing with out-and-out winger, as far as position is concerned. Whether he has enough defensive skill to cope with Kempes, is another subject to debate

Granted, I don't really like to see greats like Sammer restricted to very specific setups, but his peak was absolutely in a back 3/5 in a very specific role, and his best form prior to that IIRC was as a midfielder rather than a centre back. Orthodox centre back in a back four seems to stifle the abilities that made him great. Even defensively, it was his unreal sense for who to cover for and where to appear as a last-ditch covering defender that stood out for me, which will be limited massively if he's performing a normal centre back role. As for Silva, it just seems strange to give him a pass for being shunted out to full back in an all-time draft if he's never shown any credentials there.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Think this is the highest quality match-up so far. Two very strong teams. Early thoughts:

• Simonsen attacking the space behind Marcelo looks like a fruitful route to goal
• What sort of player is Rosato and how does he deal with the pace of that front line, with particular reference to Romario?
• Would prefer Kempes a bit narrower - only a mentalist puts him out wide left.
• MJJ/Crappy will play some stunning and slick football when they get hold of it.
• Off the ball I'd be concerned that they have a number of passengers as the likes of Romario, Henry, Kroos, and even Pep and Figo weren't the most industrious or effective.
• It's a bit risky in an all-time draft to have a player operating clearly out of position in Thiago Silva. But Silva's all-round qualities mean he could do a passable job there

I hope my write up covered it but the formation graphic was probably lazy and a sleep-deprived attempt to portray symmetry. I think/hope the beauty of my front 5 is the interchangeability. Kempes as a left attacker with peak Charlton who was only a few years removed from his prolific left winger incarnation is perfect - Kempes can work extremely effectively from the left wing (see below), Charlton's exceptional dribbling can take him out there to create chances and overloads, and if we lose possession then there's no-one better than Kempes to cover for Charlton's defensive duties.

Simonsen's arrows are meant to indicate that he'll be roaming flank to flank to provide width and search for openings. Far from outrageous:


I've got great footage of Schuster's brilliance popping up on the right wing somewhere if I can find it, but Kempes/Charlton/Schnellinger, with Schnellinger being my more dynamic full back, will be nightmarish for an out of position Silva, Figo and Kroos to control.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I've got great footage of Schuster's brilliance popping up on the right wing somewhere if I can find it,

Plenty of corners/free kicks/crosses from the right from Schuster. This incarnation of Schuster was clearly shot physically (in his thirties) but you could still see his class shining through. @harms also made a vid compilation of the younger Schuster playing a right sided B2B role in the Euro 1980 but think it was taken down.

 

[MJJ]

@Edgar Allan Pillow Thiago is playing as a tucked in right back, that's not different from a rcb. He won't be playing as a natural fullback but more of an auxiliary centre back which will allow sammer to step out of defense when needed as mentioned in the op.

Will respond to the rest of the points later.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Plenty of corners/free kicks/crosses from the right from Schuster. This incarnation of Schuster was clearly shot physically (in his thirties) but you could still see his class shining through. @harms also made a vid compilation of the younger Schuster playing a right sided B2B role in the Euro 1980 but think it was taken down.

I love you .

Simonsen is clearly going to be providing alot of the width, and as such he's going to be targeting Marcelo tonnes as per his starting position, but he's not expected to be Stanley Matthews here. He'll be drifting flank to flank rather than sticking rigidly to his wing. I think I've outlined it above as regards the left wing, but Schuster and less so Vogts and whichever striker drifts over still present a viable right wing whenever Simonsen looks for openings either centrally or on the other flank.

 

[antohan]

I've got great footage of Schuster's brilliance popping up on the right wing somewhere if I can find it, but Kempes/Charlton/Schnellinger, with Schnellinger being my more dynamic full back, will be nightmarish for an out of position Silva, Figo and Kroos to control.

Which Schuster are you playing? Euro 80? Barca with Diego? Barca all by himself? Real?

 

[antohan]

Plenty of corners/free kicks/crosses from the right from Schuster. This incarnation of Schuster was clearly shot physically (in his thirties) but you could still see his class shining through. @harms also made a vid compilation of the younger Schuster playing a right sided B2B role in the Euro 1980 but think it was taken down.

I would decidedly call that an AM role more than a B2B role.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Edgar Allan Pillow Thiago is playing as a tucked in right back, that's not different from a rcb. He won't be playing as a natural fullback but more of an auxiliary centre back which will allow sammer to step out of defense when needed as mentioned in the op.

Will respond to the rest of the points later.

'When needed' is so different from Sammer's best position though. Prime Sammer popped up everywhere from deepest defender to auxiliary centre forward, battling away in midfield where necessary. 'Stepping out of defence' occasionally is just far from libero Sammer, even with Silva stepping in, which I admit is a lovely tactic .

 

[antohan]

Bloody hell, this game has been on for hours and only 2-1? Must be nerve-wracking for both managers.

First impresssions:

- @MJJ s attack is awesome, midfield a bit meh overall (will provide fine support on the ball but poor in recovery), defence has some great players but looks a bit makeshift.

- @Pat_Mustard has the better midfield, the attack is more of an acquired taste but I buy that it will work very well with Charlton and Schuster joining them. The central defensive pair doesn't look right to deal with Romario, but the fullbacks are exactly what @MJJs frontline calls for.

These sort of games ìnevitably go down to minor details which look petty relative to the overall potential in a side. Still not sure whether that's @MJJ not getting the most out of Sammer and not really having a rightback per se (Charlton being the concern there, not really Kempes for whom the tucked in Silva will be fine), or whether it is Romario likely skinning that defensive pair (and I rate Ruggeri very highly but he wouldn't be the sort of player I would think about for this job).

Difficult.

1) How deep/high are your respective defensive lines?
2) Which Schuster?
3) What is expected of Sammer here?

I would like answers to these questions before making up my mind.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Which Schuster are you playing? Euro 80? Barca with Diego? Barca all by himself? Real?

I would decidedly call that an AM role more than a B2B role.

Schuster provided that level of quality from the right wing position at the beginning of his career, and right at the end. Given the sustained brilliance in between, I don't see it as a stretch that he'd do so in this incarnation in any stage of his career. That said...

 

[mazhar13]

I'm not sure who to really vote for. Marcelo going forward will cause problems for Pat's team, but Henry on the left side does balance things out in Pat's favour. Henry will rarely want to receive the ball out wide, and he'd rather try to receive the ball towards the middle rather than out on the left. Romario will definitely cause problems for Pat's defence. Even though Rosato was an excellent stopper, Romario's skill, trickery, and flair will cause him problems. Thus, cutting out the supply to him is paramount for Pat, and he has the midfield to do that.

With three hardworking midfielders in Charlton, Schuster, and Gallego, Guardiola, Kroos, and Vieira won't have it easy in there, and Vieira may be overworked against that midfield. However, Vieira's dynamism, strength, and skill on the ball can drag players out of position similar to how Yaya Toure creates spaces for his creative teammates in Man. City, so whilst CrappyJJ's midfield may not be able to cover enough ground and close down spaces for Pat's team to threaten with, they can potentially peg back Pat's team. Guardiola-Kroos seems like a fruitful partnership, and Kroos is in the perfect midfield for him: with Guardiola holding the midfield with his intelligent positioning and passing and Vieira rampaging all around with his physical traits, Kroos will get the space and time to dictate the game and supply the attacking players or even take long shots. The sad thing here is that this midfield is facing such an energetic, tenacious, and well-rounded midfield, so it's not like Kroos, Guardiola, and Vieira will be able to have as much influence as one would expect.

In terms of attacking players, Pat's forwards are just tasty! Simonsen, Kempes, and Law have great synergy with each other. My only problem is that Kempes is playing on the left, which doesn't suit him well enough as he's not a wide player in any fashion (unlike Simonsen) and he's more of a left-footed player as well. Playing Kempes on the left leaves Pat's left side easier to deal with for MJJ/Crappy. Still, though, it's not like Thiago Silva will have a field day against Kempes, whose movement and positioning left opposing defenders confused quite often.

I think Pat's midfield and forward line edges it for him. Whilst CrappyJJ's defence is quite good, its left side will be quite open, and Kempes + Law with their movement and ability on the ball will cause problems for the back line, who won't know whether to push up or stay back, and whose runs to stop. Still, though, I'll give CrappyJJ's team a chance as it has the potential to control a game and run Pat's team ragged with their passing and movement.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

1) How deep/high are your respective defensive lines?
2) Which Schuster?
I would like answers to these questions before making up my mind.

1) A typical Utd circa 2008 line up in possession. We push high up in possession and drop back quickly off the ball, the big difference being that Schnellinger is much more cautious than Evra about being caught upfield, relying more on the Kempes/Charlton axis to provide the width. Schnellinger will advance behind them, but more to put in crosses or to provide the outball behind than to attack the byline. On the other side Vogts/Simonsen is a reasonable approximation of Brown/Ronaldo in terms of defensive shape, except that Vogts is far better than Brown defensively and Simonsen will be attacking the left back directly more than Ronaldo generally did.

In general, a high defensive line in possession, with cautious and all-time great level full backs. Our defensive line drops back off as soon as we relinquish possession.

2) Late Barca/early Real/early Atletico:

The middle career one. Dictating matches, still with the ability to surge forward occasionally. I'm not sure why you're finding a problem with this? Peak Maradona loved him, I'm sure he could work around Sir Bobby, especially woth Gallego behind.

 

[MJJ]

'When needed' is so different from Sammer's best position though. Prime Sammer popped up everywhere from deepest defender to auxiliary centre forward, battling away in midfield where necessary. 'Stepping out of defence' occasionally is just far from libero Sammer, even with Silva stepping in, which I admit is a lovely tactic .

Haha thanks, glad you like it

Was the only available option after bepo screwed our side over. I do agree that here sammer wont have that much freedom as he did in his prime but that is due to us needed him to be more defensively responsible. During the phases of the game, where we have the ball he can still do that ( but not much further than the midfield) as our attack is good enough to win it on its own while him playing that role will leave us a bit short at the back. So he is playing a defensively responsible libero position here ( if there is a word for that )

Bloody hell, this game has been on for hours and only 2-1? Must be nerve-wracking for both managers.

First impresssions:

- @MJJ s attack is awesome, midfield a bit meh overall (will provide fine support on the ball but poor in recovery), defence has some great players but looks a bit makeshift.

- @Pat_Mustard has the better midfield, the attack is more of an acquired taste but I buy that it will work very well with Charlton and Schuster joining them. The central defensive pair doesn't look right to deal with Romario, but the fullbacks are exactly what @MJJs frontline calls for.

These sort of games ìnevitably go down to minor details which look petty relative to the overall potential in a side. Still not sure whether that's @MJJ not getting the most out of Sammer and not really having a rightback per se (Charlton being the concern there, not really Kempes for whom the tucked in Silva will be fine), or whether it is Romario likely skinning that defensive pair (and I rate Ruggeri very highly but he wouldn't be the sort of player I would think about for this job).

Difficult.

1) How deep/high are your respective defensive lines?
2) Which Schuster?
3) What is expected of Sammer here?

I would like answers to these questions before making up my mind.

I just woke up, started at a really bad time for me ( our fault completely).

1) Average, not particularly high or particularly deep.
3) See above, he is first of all playing as a CB but because we arent playing an actual fullback but a world class defender tucked in, he will get plenty of opportunities to step up with the ball like a libero would.

 

[crappycraperson]

As for Henry as a left-sided forward in a three man attack, I'm going to choose the path of least resistance and just point out some of the (very good) points Crappy has made about him in similar set ups. I'm trying to avoid the many examples that relate more closely to his Barcelona role:





The pace of Henry and Romario is still a massive threat here of course, but its disingenuous to claim now that Henry is playing in his peak role when you've been so vocal about it in the past, as recently as the last draft where you felt Skizzo and I should have went for Giggs instead of Henry in the reinforcement rounds.

I am only going to respond to this since this is directed at me. Rest of the stuff I will leave to @MJJ since I will be busy at work today.

Firstly, this is MJJ's team. I am just a scout or AM. So even if I do not rate a player or do not rate a player in a certain position, that should not hurt his team. I have PMs to prove that he had no problem with Henry on left in Skizzo's team in last draft.

Coming to my own opinions here. I have not said that this Henry in his peak role. But in the write up it is highlighted that an absence of a designated number 10 does give Henry the freedom to drive the game more. That is the different between this and a team where he plays alongside someone like Messi or Ronaldinho. In your own last draft team, he was playing alongside Suarez. Again a problem since both would want to be heavily involved in the build up play. In Cal's team Hazard was present as someone who would want to run the play from left pretty much clashing directly with Henry.

 

[Balu]

I'm usually not a big fan of Sammer as one of the two centerbacks, but I kinda like him in a sweeper/libero-ish role in what looks almost like a zona mista defensive set-up here, with Thiago Silva as a right centerback/fullback hybrid. And Silva clearly has the skillset to play the role of a defensive right fullback. With Marcelo basically playing as a wingback on the left and the defense often defending as a back three against counterattacks, Sammer all of a sudden looks perfect there. Henry as an inside left forward and Figo as the traditional right winger looks also a great fit, the right type of attackers on either wing.

 

[sajeev]

@Pat_Mustard more details on Gallego and Rosato please

 

[Moby]

The Henry on the left channel was such a non issue, never saw any logic behind it before whenever crappy brought it up. One of the most random gripes I've seen in these things. Now he's fine playing the same role, well of course he is, just like he always was be it on the left in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1.

But in the write up it is highlighted that an absence of a designated number 10 does give Henry the freedom to drive the game more.

His peak came in a partnership with a number 10, with another creative playmaker in Pires alongside. The notion that he can only excel in the absence of playmakers/players who like to influence the game is bizarre. He is an outlet, a finisher, a final third player before anything else. His best position is a wing forward, there's no issue with that whatsoever. e.g. He'd be devastating next to a false 9 like Messi.

 

[Gio]

I'm rather unconvinced by crappy's u-turn on Henry, but in any case the big man is fine in that inside-left channel attacking the centre.

 

[antohan]

2) Late Barca/early Real/early Atletico:

The middle career one. Dictating matches, still with the ability to surge forward occasionally. I'm not sure why you're finding a problem with this? Peak Maradona loved him, I'm sure he could work around Sir Bobby, especially woth Gallego behind.

Not a problem, the issue is he was a different player after his injury. He was less mobile and couldn't be as dynamic in an AM role as he was in his earlier days (e.g. you don't have the younger Schuster foraging out wide then, you would have something closer to that Leverkusen one).

It's one of the great stories in terms of a player reinventing himself and staying at the top despite an injury thaat could have wrecked other careers. Early Schuster is an AM, you may even call him box-to-box depending on the setup. The later Schuster was more of a quarterback dictating and marshalling the midfield from deep.

 

[antohan]

1) Average, not particularly high or particularly deep.
3) See above, he is first of all playing as a CB but because we arent playing an actual fullback but a world class defender tucked in, he will get plenty of opportunities to step up with the ball like a libero would.

That's a bit wishy washy and non-committal tbh. Is he a CB or a sweeper in between two CBs?

 

[antohan]

The Henry on the left channel was such a non issue, never saw any logic behind it before whenever crappy brought it up. One of the most random gripes I've seen in these things. Now he's fine playing the same role, well of course he is, just like he always was be it on the left in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1.

His peak came in a partnership with a number 10, with another creative playmaker in Pires alongside. The notion that he can only excel in the absence of playmakers/players who like to influence the game is bizarre. He is an outlet, a finisher, a final third player before anything else. His best position is a wing forward, there's no issue with that whatsoever. e.g. He'd be devastating next to a false 9 like Messi.

I always found it baffling. All this shite about "Henry won't like to receive it out left". Why exactly? He did that week in, week out, even when nominally played as "striker". It was simply easier to escape the attention of defenders if he peeled wide and deeper. Now, if the defender followed, he would just be skinned and there would be one less defender to worry about.

Rinse and repeat.