'All time' stats vs Premier League era stats

[Whiteside1985]

After the coverage of Aguero and the record number of hat-tricks in the Premier League today, I was having a look online about the all time record for hat-tricks in the top-flight. (Record career hat-tricks is Dixie Dean with a whopping 37, though I'm not sure how many of these were in the top flight).

Surprisingly hard to find decent stats online, especially due to the current media focussing so heavily on Premier League era stats only. It really irritates me, this implication that football only started with the Premier League.

Has anyone found any good stats resources online that are 'all time' rather than EPL only?

 

[thegregster]

Not much online.

Wiki is probably the best place to look.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England

This little book has a lot of info in it.

 

[BlueMoonOutcast]

Football was very different going back decades so no harm in relatively recent comparisons and records in my opinion.

 

[ivaldo]

Because all time stats have no relevancy and little context to what we see with modern football. Dixie Dean played the bulk of his career in the 30s. He scored 60 goals in a season where Everton won the league, and then two seasons later, that same Everton side was relegated to the second tier. They won the second tier, got promoted, then won the first tier again the following season. There's no point comparing the acheivememts of players and teams 80 years ago to players and teams of today.

 

[Whiteside1985]

It's nothing to do with a comparison between modern eras and older eras.
I just get annoyed that an arbitrary line in the sand was drawn when the Premier League was created. Has football not changed since 1992? Of course it has!

Should we discount league titles and trophies won before 1992? No, that would be stupid.

If we are going to talk about records being broken, then let's look at the 'real' records.

(PS the stats geek in me would still love to know how many of Dixie Dean's hat-tricks were in the top division...does anyone know?)

 

[africanspur]

http://www.myfootballfacts.com/index.html

This is probably the best I've seen online.

Run by a Spurs fan so there is a slight Spurs tilt with regards to the availability of certain statistics but the amount of stats on there and from different countries/ eras is mind boggling.

I'm not sure if the hat-trick stat you want will be on there but worth giving it a go I guess. Otherwise a pretty good source of stats.

*Edit* Also not sure if he's still updating the site or not. Been a while since I've seen him on the Spurs form I sometimes peruse.

 

[ivaldo]

It's nothing to do with a comparison between modern eras and older eras.
I just get annoyed that an arbitrary line in the sand was drawn when the Premier League was created. Has football not changed since 1992? Of course it has!

Should we discount league titles and trophies won before 1992? No, that would be stupid.

If we are going to talk about records being broken, then let's look at the 'real' records.

(PS the stats geek in me would still love to know how many of Dixie Dean's hat-tricks were in the top division...does anyone know?)

Why does it annoy you? It provides context. Which is why you want to know how many of DDs hattricks were scored in the top flight. Should we discount hattricks scored outside the top flight? No that would be stupid.

 

[Whiteside1985]

Why does it annoy you? It provides context. Which is why you want to know how many of DDs hattricks were scored in the top flight. Should we discount hattricks scored outside the top flight? No that would be stupid.

I'm not 'discounting' hat tricks scored outside the top flight, just bemoaning lack of detail in the stats readily available online.
By all means, flag up the stats since 1992 if this is where you define the modern era as starting.
However, in most sports there would be a reasonable amount of interest in 'all time' records.

Most supporters do this already. In a MUFC context: 20 League titles won is our biggest example.
Also, Gigg's appearance record and Rooney's goal-scoring record were both in the context of beating a record which had stood for a long time.

 

[ivaldo]

I'm not 'discounting' hat tricks scored outside the top flight, just bemoaning lack of detail in the stats readily available online.
By all means, flag up the stats since 1992 if this is where you define the modern era as starting.
However, in most sports there would be a reasonable amount of interest in 'all time' records.

Most supporters do this already. In a MUFC context: 20 League titles won is our biggest example.
Also, Gigg's appearance record and Rooney's goal-scoring record were both in the context of beating a record which had stood for a long time.

Then why does it matter? People talk about premier league records because it adds context to acheivements. It makes for a convenient cut off point. Hearing that George Camsell scored 9 hattricks in 1926 is going to mean sod all to no one. Besides, the media will regularly bring up stats and figures that go beyond the PL era. I don't know where you've got this notion from.

What do you mean "most supporters." How do you think the common supporter was made aware of it in the first place?

An arbitrary search on the internet will find almost any stat or record you like. You're asking something incredibly specific in knowing how many hattricks was scored in top fight matches only from a player who played the majority of his football about 90 years ago.

 

[Chipper]

31 top flight hat-tricks for Dixie Dean as best I can make out. 4 in division 2, and 2 in the FA Cup.

Also one in the Charity Shield, but that would make 38. Some do and some don't consider that an official match though.

Info from:
https://www.evertonresults.com/hattricks2.htm
https://www.evertonresults.com/hattricks3.htm

I may have mis-counted so have a recount if you like.

 

[Whiteside1985]

Not really looking to argue semantics with you.

I think this is one area where cricket have it spot-on. They have got a great resource for the all-time stats. Why does it matter? It's interesting (to some, anyway).

 

[Whiteside1985]

31 top flight hat-tricks for Dixie Dean as best I can make out. 4 in division 2, and 2 in the FA Cup.

Also one in the Charity Shield, but that would make 38. Some do and some don't consider that an official match though.

Info from:
https://www.evertonresults.com/hattricks2.htm
https://www.evertonresults.com/hattricks3.htm

I may have mis-counted so have a recount if you like.

Cheers! My inner stats-geek is satisfied!

 

[ivaldo]

Not really looking to argue semantics with you.

I think this is one area where cricket have it spot-on. They have got a great resource for the all-time stats. Why does it matter? It's interesting (to some, anyway).

It's not semantics. You've decided the media believe football prior to the PL didn't matter, which is of course nonsense.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the PL record is being discussed today as opposed to a record that hasn't been broken set in a time that isn't remembered in living memory.

 

[Verminator]

@Whiteside1985 I see no problem with what you're saying.
Why anyone would need to argue about it, I don't know.

 

[Schneckerl]

Football was very different going back decades so no harm in relatively recent comparisons and records in my opinion.

Why use the season when the league was rebranded as cutoff where modern football starts? Completely arbitrary.

 

[Schneckerl]

Because all time stats have no relevancy and little context to what we see with modern football. Dixie Dean played the bulk of his career in the 30s. He scored 60 goals in a season where Everton won the league, and then two seasons later, that same Everton side was relegated to the second tier. They won the second tier, got promoted, then won the first tier again the following season. There's no point comparing the acheivememts of players and teams 80 years ago to players and teams of today.

Same for all kinds of World Cup, European Cup, La Liga, Serie A.... records. Yet those are still used.

 

[Whiteside1985]

@Whiteside1985 I see no problem with what you're saying.
Why anyone would need to argue about it, I don't know.

I guess that's why I rarely join in or start a discussion in the football forums.
Oddly vehement disagreements seem the normal.

I stand by what I said, I do think the modern media excessively use premier league stats only. It's not something I 'decided'; just something I have observed.

But anyhoo.....

 

[ivaldo]

Why use the season when the league was rebranded as cutoff where modern football starts? Completely arbitrary.

Convenience. When, specifically, would you cut it off? You'll also hear "post world-war" mentioned quite regularly, too. Not because 1945 and 1992 are anything other than arbitrary.

 

[ivaldo]

I guess that's why I rarely join in or start a discussion in the football forums.
Oddly vehement disagreements seem the normal.

I stand by what I said, I do think the modern media excessively use premier league stats only. It's not something I 'decided'; just something I have observed.

But anyhoo.....

You've started a thread in a discussion forum and you've got upset because someone has disagreed with you.

There's nothing vehement in my original post. It wasn't until you started using hyperbole and calling a different viewpoint to yours "stupid," how it irritates and annoys you, that there was any heat in the discussion. The vehemence has come from you.

Christ on a bike this place gets precious sometimes.

 

[Whiteside1985]

QED

 

[dove]

This one is decent https://jalapic.shinyapps.io/engsoccerbeta/ but it has team team stats only, no players.

 

[Gio]

It's not semantics. You've decided the media believe football prior to the PL didn't matter, which is of course nonsense.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the PL record is being discussed today as opposed to a record that hasn't been broken set in a time that isn't remembered in living memory.

Well to be fair Sky have pushed the notion that football didn't exist before 1992 ever since they begun to dominate football media coverage 25 years ago. Other outlets are more balanced, but ultimately records generate headlines and - the shorter the timeframe - then the more headlines they can use to generate traffic or sell papers.