Another boring one horse race

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah you are bang on that we made a monumental mistake by not appointing a DOF before Fergie retired

Exactly. SAF had built this club up, so surely you make sure that will continue. Instead they hired a flotilla of managers who up until now just paid lip service to it. Ole knows what the club yet, but time will tell if he actually knows how to deliver it.

 

[croadyman]

Exactly. SAF had built this club up, so surely you make sure that will continue. Instead they hired a flotilla of managers who up until now just paid lip service to it. Ole knows what the club yet, but time will tell if he actually knows how to deliver it.

I am also so proud of the fact we didn't need an oil sugar daddy to help us win a league

 

[Sunny Jim]

IT is our fault. We lost far football many points.

 

[Judas]

Our terrible recruitment and lack of planning eats at me more than City winning the lottery.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I am also so proud of the fact we didn't need an oil sugar daddy to help us win a league

So you should be as well. Not that anybody else cares. The media just overlook that little fact when praising City to the heavens.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Our terrible recruitment and lack of planning eats at me more than City winning the lottery.

City winning just highlight it even more. Yes they won the lottery, but they knew what their plans were and have carried them out. Any money we get and we go out a blow it all on the equivalent of sex and drugs and rock and roll.

 

[croadyman]

So you should be as well. Not that anybody else cares. The media just overlook that little fact when praising City to the heavens.

Same thing happened with Chelsea too so we shouldn't be in the least bit shocked, the spending of those two in this market just shows how little they care about their perceived image in the footballing world

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Same thing happened with Chelsea too so we shouldn't be in the least bit shocked, the spending of those two in this market just shows how little they care about their perceived image in the footballing world

They couldn't give a toss. One it is to promote a country, the other is an ego project.

 

[Bearded One]

Time will tell but as of now it looks like city will win a third in 4 years with over 90 points. If you allow for winning 4 in a row being incredibly rare and a non city winner now and then, I don't think that's competitive. Very few teams will get more than 90pts, Ferguson did it once.

The league Cup may as well be disbanded.

English football is not more competitive for having city's money. Its more competitive because Ferguson retired.

Time will tell you say so let’s leave it at that till then. At least you can agree that no league in the world is competitive going by your standards and even at that, among the non-competitive leagues (which happen to be all leagues) the premier league is number one most competitive.

SAF relished the competition with sugar daddy clubs and thrived inspire of it but it is clear as day that the competition took another dimension when these investors showed up. The league is more competitive for having these monies because more teams could now win apart from United unlike before. Man city and Chelsea and a few others joined the league of winners because of investment increasing the number of potential winners. Even now we can’t tell exactly who will make top 4 even though city have run away with the league. SAF could win against these teams with money but it was a tougher ask compared to doing it without them.

 

[croadyman]

They couldn't give a toss. One it is to promote a country, the other is an ego project.

Really makes me want to walk away from the game

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Really makes me want to walk away from the game

It is annoying that most clubs are having to tighten their belts because of the pandemic while these two will just thumb their noses at everybody else and spend regardless.

 

[redNATION]

We are routinely among the biggest spenders in Europe, and pay wages as high as anyone. Our lack of success since Fergie is entirely on us, rather than City or Chelsea's spending. We have spent enough to win a couple of titles and a champions league, evidenced by the fact that Leicester and liverpool have both won titles, and Spurs reached a champions league final.

Poor management and leadership, both at the football level and director level, have cost us massively and set us back years.

City do have a lot of money, but they have a strategy and focus in how they execute it, Ed and co are amateurs by comparison. The gap between us and them shouldn't be anywhere near as big, when you consider our starting position relative to theirs.

 

[Amir]

It's a weird one really. The idea of letting Ole finish his project, which I do not object to at all and understand. However it is difficult when the likes of City still strengthen, so it might mean in the end our project's objective is just to stand still. We need to finish second, because if not what progress have we made, if we do not get to a final then no progress has been made has it? He has to turn this squad into winners. I would take anything at this point, otherwise we will just get a losers reputation.

If Leicester, who are now free of European Football, have a great run till the end of the season and we finish close third with a good amount of points, would that not be progress?

I think progress should be look at in depth, from various angles, and not just through what place you finished or with how many points.

 

[Adisa]

We are routinely among the biggest spenders in Europe, and pay wages as high as anyone. Our lack of success since Fergie is entirely on us, rather than City or Chelsea's spending. We have spent enough to win a couple of titles and a champions league, evidenced by the fact that Leicester and liverpool have both won titles, and Spurs reached a champions league final.

Poor management and leadership, both at the football level and director level, have cost us massively and set us back years.

City do have a lot of money, but they have a strategy and focus in how they execute it, Ed and co are amateurs by comparison.

I don't know any industry where an executive without direct interest has been allowed to preside over a failing organisation for 8 years. It is unprecedented.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If Leicester, who are now free of European Football, have a great run till the end of the season and we finish close third with a good amount of points, would that not be progress?

I think progress should be look at in depth, from various angles, and not just through what place you finished or with how many points.

The position you finish and the points you get is what keeps manager in a job.

 

[Adisa]

The position you finish and the points you get is what keeps manager in a job.

I agree but don't think it should be the only thing a club like ours looks at.

 

[Hansi Fick]

The position you finish and the points you get is what keeps manager in a job.

You've got 14 points more than last season at this stage.

 

[Amir]

The position you finish and the points you get is what keeps manager in a job.

So style of play, improving players, etc, shouldn't be part of the consideration?

 

[Withnail]

I suspect that City would find a way around any kind of salary cap.

 

[croadyman]

I suspect that City would find a way around any kind of salary cap.

Yeah the brown envelopes will be out again and being waived in faces

 

[croadyman]

I don't know any industry where an executive without direct interest has been allowed to preside over a failing organisation for 8 years. It is unprecedented.

Yeah it is utterly negligent that the toy story puppet has so much power and can't be shifted due to the fact he is the reason that they gained full control of this club and saddled us with sickening levels of debt

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So style of play, improving players, etc, shouldn't be part of the consideration?

Improving players. I would say yes, but our defence has gone backwards, Martial cannot hit the side of a barn. Greenwood is not as good, but some of that could be his own fault. The playing style is good at times, but why do we start so slowly? Why do we like conceding first? Why can we not defend corners? There are a lot of good things, but the coaching side is not good. Ole needs to be looking at that, we need someone who might actually put the defensive side right. He could do with a Carlos Queiroz on his staff. It is a one horse race, because City rarely concede goals. If we had that we would be breathing down their necks.

 

[croadyman]

Improving players. I would say yes, but our defence has gone backwards, Martial cannot hit the side of a barn. Greenwood is not as good, but some of that could be his own fault. The playing style is good at times, but why do we start so slowly? Why do we like conceding first? Why can we not defend corners? There are a lot of good things, but the coaching side is not good. Ole needs to be looking at that, we need someone who might actually put the defensive side right. He could do with a Carlos Queiroz on his staff. It is a one horse race, because City rarely concede goals. If we had that we would be breathing down their necks.

Yeah you are absolutely bang on with all your points and it needs some action with these issues if we are to even get within punching distance of winning a league again

 

[DoneDaDa]

I don't know any industry where an executive without direct interest has been allowed to preside over a failing organisation for 8 years. It is unprecedented.

Its shocking and quite embarrassing, I don't know how United fans in Manchester haven't started a riot. A team that has been spending loads in terms or transfer and wages is still legging behind the top teams is quite embarrassing at this rate even Barcelona will find their footing before United.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah you are absolutely bang on with all your points and it needs some action with these issues if we are to even get within punching distance of winning a league again

It is the fact about the way our club is run, that nobody has pointed it out about the coaching side. The ones who run the likes of Bayern would be all over it and very vocally as well. I like a lot of how Ole deals with things, but think he is a manager who would need the best coaches round him and the best players. We will see anyway. We need CL football for the finances of the club in these times.

 

[croadyman]

Its shocking and quite embarrassing, I don't know how United fans in Manchester haven't started a riot. A team that has been spending loads in terms or transfer and wages is still legging behind the top teams is quite embarrassing at this rate even Barcelona will find their footing before United.

They tried that after the initial takeover in 2005 and got absolutely nowhere, then we had the green and gold campaign from 09-11 and still those yankee leeches just basically sat in their big mansions and laughed right in our faces

 

[croadyman]

It is the fact about the way our club is run, that nobody has pointed it out about the coaching side. The ones who run the likes of Bayern would be all over it and very vocally as well. I like a lot of how Ole deals with things, but think he is a manager who would need the best coaches round him and the best players. We will see anyway. We need CL football for the finances of the club in these times.

Yeah makes we want to scream at Ole for not being willing to bring in coaches outside of his Utd old boys club and I honestly cannot for the life of me understand his reasoning for not wanting to do it either

 

[DomesticTadpole]

They tried that after the initial takeover in 2005 and got absolutely nowhere, then we had the green and gold campaign from 09-11 and still those yankee leeches just basically sat in their big mansions and laughed right in our faces

They've won The Superbowl, they will be as happy as a pig in sh*t.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah makes we want to scream at Ole for not being willing to bring in coaches outside of his Utd old boys club and I honestly cannot for the life of me understand his reasoning for not wanting to do it either

Maybe he would see an experienced top class coach as a threat to his job?

 

[SER19]

Time will tell you say so let’s leave it at that till then. At least you can agree that no league in the world is competitive going by your standards and even at that, among the non-competitive leagues (which happen to be all leagues) the premier league is number one most competitive.

SAF relished the competition with sugar daddy clubs and thrived inspire of it but it is clear as day that the competition took another dimension when these investors showed up. The league is more competitive for having these monies because more teams could now win apart from United unlike before. Man city and Chelsea and a few others joined the league of winners because of investment increasing the number of potential winners. Even now we can’t tell exactly who will make top 4 even though city have run away with the league. SAF could win against these teams with money but it was a tougher ask compared to doing it without them.

The key issue isn't competitiveness though. It's sporting. If a team is dominant for a long time based on sporting merit, eg Liverpool in the 80s, United in the 90s, you have to accept it and the growth of a club that goes with it. As with both of those examples, sport will always see them fall away and need to rebuild while a new team or teams take their place. Man City, have absolutely no sporting merit. They are an attempt to westernise and make palatable, a state in the middle east. They are a fantastic team, but poor for the sport. In the same way great clubs like Barcelona and Real were sportingly poor in the way money was handled in Spain, and quite open to criticism on those points. We can stand back and comment on it being a sign of the times, and each club having dubious owners and so on, but City are doing something on a scale that no club in history has ever done, and since 99.9% of clubs in the world simply can't match it, the inevitable result is 90+ seasons becoming routine and absurd 20 game winning runs. They're an excellent team, best in the league by far, but a sporting catastrophe in the true sense of the word sport.

 

[roseguy64]

estimated wage bills... dunno how accurate it is but for sure a salary cap would hurt us more than most
MU £175m
MC £137m
CHE £133m
ARS £131m
TOT £129m
LIV £119m
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

Yeah some of the figures I saw for the City players have to be off. Either that or City don't improve player wages to account for performances and wait until the deal is almost done to do that.

 

[redNATION]

estimated wage bills... dunno how accurate it is but for sure a salary cap would hurt us more than most
MU £175m
MC £137m
CHE £133m
ARS £131m
TOT £129m
LIV £119m
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

Caps would usually be based on percentage of revenue or other metric, and not just absolute numbers,

 

[Ace Krampus]

The key issue isn't competitiveness though. It's sporting. If a team is dominant for a long time based on sporting merit, eg Liverpool in the 80s, United in the 90s, you have to accept it and the growth of a club that goes with it. As with both of those examples, sport will always see them fall away and need to rebuild while a new team or teams take their place. Man City, have absolutely no sporting merit. They are an attempt to westernise and make palatable, a state in the middle east. They are a fantastic team, but poor for the sport. In the same way great clubs like Barcelona and Real were sportingly poor in the way money was handled in Spain, and quite open to criticism on those points. We can stand back and comment on it being a sign of the times, and each club having dubious owners and so on, but City are doing something on a scale that no club in history has ever done, and since 99.9% of clubs in the world simply can't match it, the inevitable result is 90+ seasons becoming routine and absurd 20 game winning runs. They're an excellent team, best in the league by far, but a sporting catastrophe in the true sense of the word sport.

I see what you're saying but functionally it's a tomato/tomahto situation. No parity = less exciting league. Whatever the circumstance is, the league being decided in February is not good for the sport. We at least have something to root for, a 2nd or 3rd place finish, which is more than most can say. Hopefully we make a deep EL run too, dramatic knock out games with real consequence minute to minute. If you're a fan of a firmly mid-table club like Wolves or Palace, I don't know what your best case scenario is. A run here or there of individual brilliance, a few good results against "better" teams... but it's not like you're hoping for a Cinderella run and you're probably not facing relegation. Season's basically done.

 

[Josh 76]

Depressing really. Pep needs to feck off.

If Pep wasn't around.....Klopp would be cleaning up.
So maybe it's a blessing!

 

[Ace Krampus]

Caps would usually be based on percentage of revenue or other metric, and not just absolute numbers,

That would just specifically benefit teams who are larger globally and punish new money teams and smaller sides alike; how does that help? The NBA's soft cap might be the best system to emulate, though the signing and acquisition methods are different enough to need major tweaks, obviously. Teams can go over the cap by acquiring assets in specific circumstances and cannot do so by outright signing players in the NBA, and they pay a very stiff penalty for being over the cap. I'm not as up on the latest CBA as some of the earlier ones, but at a time in the not so recent past, the luxury tax saw teams above a certain threshold penalized two dollars for every dollar over it.

Not sure how to make that work when trades are so infrequent in football\ and players are bought and sold instead, but a soft cap with a penalty is probably more feasible than a hard cap, which would never get passed.

 

[Amir]

Improving players. I would say yes, but our defence has gone backwards, Martial cannot hit the side of a barn. Greenwood is not as good, but some of that could be his own fault. The playing style is good at times, but why do we start so slowly? Why do we like conceding first? Why can we not defend corners? There are a lot of good things, but the coaching side is not good. Ole needs to be looking at that, we need someone who might actually put the defensive side right. He could do with a Carlos Queiroz on his staff. It is a one horse race, because City rarely concede goals. If we had that we would be breathing down their necks.

Don't get me wrong, by the way. There are many things I'm not impressed and I would look to replace the manager whether we finish second or third. I'm just talking in principle.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Don't get me wrong, by the way. There are many things I'm not impressed and I would look to replace the manager whether we finish second or third. I'm just talking in principle.

No problem.

It is like we were tight at the back, but not scoring enough. Now they have sacrificed defending to score goals. Why can't we have both.

 

[cyberman]

You've got 14 points more than last season at this stage.

This point is laughably lost as the season goes on. Nobody thought we would be second at this stage yet thats its still a disaster because we arent withib 10 of City on a record breaking run.
There is tangible improvement we can point to.

 

[Ace Krampus]

Maybe try something like the NFL has - salary cap and salary floor. Can't spend enough to hit the floor and field a competitive team? Can't be an owner. You'd have to stagger it - existing owners would have to have some amount of years to be able to reach the floor, rather than an overnight change.

The NFL also has the heartlessly effective non-guaranteed contract. Much easier to get back to league average when you're not sunk by a bad contract for the duration of said contract.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Maybe try something like the NFL has - salary cap and salary floor. Can't spend enough to hit the floor and field a competitive team? Can't be an owner. You'd have to stagger it - existing owners would have to have some amount of years to be able to reach the floor, rather than an overnight change.

The NFL also has the heartlessly effective non-guaranteed contract. Much easier to get back to league average when you're not sunk by a bad contract for the duration of said contract.

It would need to be Europe wide - I’m not sure how realistic that is. Also, as there would be a lot of incentives to cheat the system, there would need to be some system in place to investigate breaches and punish offenders. Again, I’m sceptical as to how effective that would be. While Saracens rugby club may have been caught out, I imagine the likes of City and PSG could afford the lawyers and accountants to do it more discretely.