Another false dawn?

[gasmanc]

I'm confident even against that sort of team. We're not talking Fletcher, Cleverley, Fellaini, Valencia, Young and Co anymore. Players like Herrera, Di Maria, Blind and Mata will thrive against teams that press. What's often forgotten about sides that press relentlessly is that by default they are pulling themselves out of shape and out of position as it requires one or two players constantly chasing whatever area the ball moves into. A side full of players that are comfortable on the ball and can move the ball quickly and equally move quickly off the ball can take advantage of that fact and exploit the spaces they leave. That itself is a big part of Van Gaal's foshiffy.

I like this post although it's slightly on the optimistic side for me, but your spot on with the bolded part and the very last sentence is the key.
I think this is why the persistence with 3-5-2 will continue, it is the one to master in order to cope with good pressing sides as it allows us to be compact and move the ball quickly and with a midfield 5 we outnumber most, as long as we are comfortable in possession we can move our opponents around and exploit the space.
I am beginning to really enjoy watching this foshiffy unfold.

 

[beergod]

Not a false dawn. The dawn of things to come after a year of post-Fergie hangover. Don't care about the forwards or the defense, the midfield of Blind-Di Maria-Herrera look like they will eradicate zombie football. We had a midfield playing with pace, pressing, and even the sideways passes to recycle possession were done quickly. We looked very good when pressing considering that none of the trio had played together previously and the international break. Our midfielders were counterattacking against an unambitious QPR side compared to the latter Fergie years and the Moyes year where we rarely counterattacked against anyone. We finally have a midfield, the rest doesn't matter at this point.

 

[thejtrain]

Can't see it being a false dawn, there is just too much quality now.

Basically this.

 

[Brophs]

My answer probably lies closer to yes than no, if only because I think we're going to have rough patches for a while yet. We have some fantastic players but we also have lots of new players, a new system and some glaring weaknesses in the squad. That won't all be sorted overnight. Plus the obvious caveat of how bad QPR were.

I don't think it'll be terrible or anything but I still think we'll finish a dozen or more points off the title, for example.

 

[gooDevil]

Do you believe in life after Moyes?
I can feel something inside me say
I really do think we're strong enough, oh....

 

[Sky1981]

Just curious how bullish we're all feeling?

One of the worst aspects of last season was an occasional good result making us think we were turning a corner. Every single time we crashed back down to earth very quickly afterwards. Under Van Gaal, pre-season was our latest false dawn. Great against Liverpool/Madrid. Dire against Swansea/Burnley/MK Dons.

Obviously, Van Gaal and the new signings make it far more likely that there's substance to the raised expectations from last weekend. However, even if Van Gaal's debut season is a success I think we can go one of two ways from here.

1. Normal service resumed. Manchester United is back. Comfortably beating teams from the bottom half of the league. Beating the best teams at home (usually) and picking up some points against them on the road. Consistent formation and tactics. A team that knows what it's doing and clearly capable of a top 4 finish.

2. Continuation of early season teething problems. Dropping points against poor sides. Out-classed against the big teams. A return of the recent uncertainty about CL qualification etc. etc.

Just to clarify, option 2 is just referring to next few weeks/months. Not the whole season. Like I said, teething problems. Not a full scale crisis.

So, if 2 is a false dawn. What's the most likely scenario, caftards?

Again, I take a look at Louis Van Gaal's CV.

The past has shown that he has what it takes. Those trophies at Ajax, and Az Alkmar especially.

 

[JUPITER]

It's not a 'false dawn', or whatever daft phrase was used in the OP. But equally it doesn't change the fact that we're a team in construction - a very, very good team I believe - but still one in construction.

Anyone who knows anything about football could see that how we played on Sunday was very, very different to anything we saw under Moyes in the league last season. The triangles and give and goes that were happening literally all game was among the best, most intelligent football we've played in years. Yes, the opposition was poor, but what we were playing was the absolute opposite of 'zombie passing' or 'get to the by-line and thwack it'.

Our first 11 now consists of a really good young keeper, a good back 4 when all fit (and will get better), a really good DM, two amazing midfielders who can defend and attack and score goals, two amazing number 10s, the best pure striker on the planet if fit and/or RvP. And the brain behind all that is Louis f**king Van Gaal.

So no, it wasn't a 'false dawn' and it's entirely redundant to gabble on about last season as a comparison to this season - half of the entire playing/managerial staff has gone from last year, including the manager.

Of course we're still learning a new system, and one that is notoriously 'philosophical', so there will be some more wrinkles to iron out this season, but this is a beast of a team that we're building.

3 more performances (and results) like that one from our next 3 games and rightly or wrongly we'll be among title favourites.

 

[shabadu84]

I am more hopeful after this single result than I am after any decent run of results we had last season. In those matches, the performances bar the Leverkeusen matches, were generally poor. We would have the occasional nice goal that usually involved Januzaj but rarely did I feel energized after a match. It was usually "the results matter more than the performances, those will come, the 3 points matter most right now" and other kinds of justifications. The match against QPR feels promising, like we are just scratching the surface of what this new team can do. Probably for the first time, I feel confident we can actually take on the post-Fergie era as we should.

 

[Skills]

There'll still be teething problems for the next few months but we could ride them out now due to the fact we're so stacked. Players like Di Maria, Falcao, Mata, Rooney and RVP should be able to knock us over the line if/when we're struggling.

 

[fallengt]

How was it a false dawn?

Our passing plan has changed from:
- Cleverly -> Fletcher -> Valencia -> Evans
To:
- Blind -> Herrera -> Di Maria -> Mata -> RvP, Rooney, Falcao or whoever could smash the ball into the net.

 

[Rudie]

I'd like to see what we do when we go a goal down, in a way Leicester scoring first and us coming back to win convincingly would be a good indication to me that this isn't a false dawn and we have made a turning point.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A clean sheet against a decent side who are willing to take the game to us would be a huge step in the right direction IMO. I would actually include Leicester in that category, so this weekend will be fascinating.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's not a 'false dawn', or whatever daft phrase was used in the OP. But equally it doesn't change the fact that we're a team in construction - a very, very good team I believe - but still one in construction.

Anyone who knows anything about football could see that how we played on Sunday was very, very different to anything we saw under Moyes in the league last season. The triangles and give and goes that were happening literally all game was among the best, most intelligent football we've played in years. Yes, the opposition was poor, but what we were playing was the absolute opposite of 'zombie passing' or 'get to the by-line and thwack it'.

Our first 11 now consists of a really good young keeper, a good back 4 when all fit (and will get better), a really good DM, two amazing midfielders who can defend and attack and score goals, two amazing number 10s, the best pure striker on the planet if fit and/or RvP. And the brain behind all that is Louis f**king Van Gaal.

So no, it wasn't a 'false dawn' and it's entirely redundant to gabble on about last season as a comparison to this season - half of the entire playing/managerial staff has gone from last year, including the manager.

Of course we're still learning a new system, and one that is notoriously 'philosophical', so there will be some more wrinkles to iron out this season, but this is a beast of a team that we're building.

3 more performances (and results) like that one from our next 3 games and rightly or wrongly we'll be among title favourites.

So "false dawn" is a 'daft phrase' but "zombie passing" is now an official part of our lexicon? Gotcha.

You're the same bloke who misused the word iconoclastic about three times in the same post, aren't you?

Sometimes I despair, I really do...

 

[Raoul]

False Dawn sounds like some unwritten Tom Clancy novel.

But yeah, i do get your point Pogue. And no, QPR wasn't a false dawn, as it was the first time our entire gaggle of new signings were playing, which not coincidentally, made us into a top side again. That's the big difference between this and last year, when we basically a bad summer window, only Fellaini, Moyes was horrible at settling in to the job, and he lost the dressing room. So any decent victory last year was undergirded by a loads of structural problems with the manager, transfers, losing the fans, losing the dressing room etc. Those problems seem to have gone this year.

 

[Adebesi]

Tough one. As someone said, with the quality we now have something has to change. I guess if pushed my answer has to be no, this wasnt a false dawn, it was a real dawn. But looking out the window it doesnt look like its going to be beach weather by any means.

At the start of the season I thought we would struggle to win the league but looked good for 3rd or 4th. I maintain that view, and this result satisfies me that will be achievable. I still dont think its going to be plain sailing but it was a glimpse of what we are aiming for, at least.

 

[NessunDorma]

I think it's the difference between hoping that Chicha, Welbeck, Young, Valencia, Cleverley and Fellaini together *might* have a good game and win us the three points - as they did on occasions - and being pretty confident that Di Maria, Herrera, Blind, Rooney, RvP, Mata and Falcao together *will* have a good game and win us the three points.

Fact is, we have improved the squad considerably, and we now have a manager who at least has vast experience of getting the best out of superstar egos at a massive club.

Based on that, you'd be surprised if we were anything like as inconsistent to downright poor as last season.

 

[paulthesinger]

I'd like to think that rather than a 'False Dawn' we have had a "False Sunset' after Fergie's retirement, massively aided by a media wanting to write us off. Hopefully now that the core of the team left feeling bereft after he's gone has moved on we genuinely have the start of something new.

 

[Borys]

I don’t think it’s a false down. Based on the quality of new players, manager and I dare to say motivation to get back where we belong, we have some serious reasons to believe this team will improve massively in the coming weeks, assuming we (somehow) avoid injuries to key players.

However, I do think the performance vs QPR is overrated quite a bit. I don’t think front three were that good but the midfield won us the game, so that’s very encouraging and exiting.

We’re one, two players away (Falcao, Shaw) from putting our best first eleven on the pitch in next game vs Leicester. That’s very good news and I believe we’ve found our way forward. I don’t think that was the case for a few years.

Not a false dawn. The dawn of things to come after a year of post-Fergie hangover. Don't care about the forwards or the defense, the midfield of Blind-Di Maria-Herrera look like they will eradicate zombie football. We had a midfield playing with pace, pressing, and even the sideways passes to recycle possession were done quickly. We looked very good when pressing considering that none of the trio had played together previously and the international break. Our midfielders were counterattacking against an unambitious QPR side compared to the latter Fergie years and the Moyes year where we rarely counterattacked against anyone. Wefinallyhave a midfield, the rest doesn't matter at this point.

Agreed.

 

[MDFC Manager]

The biggest test for me would be how this new look team would cope to going a goal behind.

 

[Jammydodger7]

hopefully its not a false dawn but we have to make sure we win our next game, our main problem was confidence in my opinion! If we can beat leicester we are suddenly on a run, if we don't then we're back to square one.

 

[revel911]

Yeah we have it's done and dusted

LvG isn't stupid he knows it wasn't working, four at the back all the way to the end of the season now.

Your joking, right? LvG will not feel it is done until he sees that his first choice set of centerbacks and wingbacks play and then fail. Until then, his presumption is that it wasn't the system that failed, but the personel. It that case, he may be right? I am not convinced either that 3 backs can't work if we have the right people in front of them.

 

[JUPITER]

So "false dawn" is a 'daft phrase' but "zombie passing" is now an official part of our lexicon? Gotcha.

'False dawn' is a daft phrase to use in this instance, yes. If you were suggesting titles for a cheesy, militaristic action movie it'd be a corker though, so all's not lost.

But seriously, where's the cut-off point for your aforementioned 'False Dawn'? If we win our next match are we still in 'False Dawn' territory, or will we then see you cracking out 'False Noon' threads?

Likewise if we go on a good run but then get stuffed by Chelsea will you pop up suggesting it was all just a 'False Day'?

We're a team in construction, there will be steps back, obviously. There will be games where teams who aren't gelling in every department throughout their first team get the better of us. You aren't going to get an immediate, over night success with the kind of massive changes we've seen this summer.

Coining our progress a 'false dawn' every time we slip, and in this case before we've even slipped, is just needlessly negative and whiney - business as usual for you then.

 

[gasmanc]

The result and performance on Sunday looked organised and structured, there was a clear plan that the players orchestrated.
Blind brought the ball forward to meet the opposition and then shifted it to flanks, either that or he sat as a pivot and shifted it probing both flanks. Once the space opened up in front from this disruptive movement of the ball then Uniteds midfield trio of Herrera, Di Maria and Mata would spring into the space and start creating the triangles of passing in the pockets.
The philosophy we hear so much about is basically a trap, the DM or ball carrying CB attempts to lure the opposition out of their pocket of space and the WB's and point of the triangle exploit it once it becomes available.

It's not really a false dawn, more a new dawn that still needs time to perfect, where Van Gaal goes with this is difficult to predict but I feel he will use Rojo as the central CB of three and he will be tasked at bringing the ball out. Blind as the DM should then be covering the spaces vacated by the marauding CB.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

'False dawn' is a daft phrase to use in this instance, yes. If you were suggesting titles for a cheesy, militaristic action movie it'd be a corker though, so all's not lost.

But seriously, where's the cut-off point for your aforementioned 'False Dawn'? If we win our next match are we still in 'False Dawn' territory, or will we then see you cracking out 'False Noon' threads?

Likewise if we go on a good run but then get stuffed by Chelsea will you pop up suggesting it was all just a 'False Day'?

We're a team in construction, there will be steps back, obviously. There will be games where teams who aren't gelling in every department throughout their first team get the better of us. You aren't going to get an immediate, over night success with the kind of massive changes we've seen this summer.

Coining our progress a 'false dawn' every time we slip, and in this case before we've even slipped, is just needlessly negative and whiney - business as usual for you then.

The phrase "false dawn" has been in widespread use for at least a hundred years, so if your frame of reference is limited to a potential title for a cheesy action movie that says more about you than it does about me. It's fairly fecking obvious what the title means. Hence I'll ignore all the unfunny drivel about false noon/day/whatever.

My cut-off point? As I've said at least twice in this thread already, 3 points at the weekend will be very reassuring. Especially if the win is in any way convincing. I'm stating the bleeding obvious here (which shouldn't be necessary but there you go) there won't be a precise moment when we can sit back, relax and wait for the inevitable league title under Van Gaal. There's obviously going to be ups and downs ahead. There were ups and downs under Fergie. However, it is likely that the season will pan out closer to one of the two scenarios in the OP than it does to the other. Even if we have a relatively successful campaign. I was just curious what the general consensus might be about how things are likely to progress from here. It's prompted four pages of discussion, so I'd say the thread has served it's purpose anyway.

If this particular topic of discussion comes across as "needlessly negative and whiney (sic)" then I'm afraid that, once again, it says more about you than it does about me and don't forget, you are allowed to not post in a thread if the topic doesn't interest you.

 

[Stack]

'False dawn' is a daft phrase to use in this instance, yes. If you were suggesting titles for a cheesy, militaristic action movie it'd be a corker though, so all's not lost.

But seriously, where's the cut-off point for your aforementioned 'False Dawn'? If we win our next match are we still in 'False Dawn' territory, or will we then see you cracking out 'False Noon' threads?

Likewise if we go on a good run but then get stuffed by Chelsea will you pop up suggesting it was all just a 'False Day'?

We're a team in construction, there will be steps back, obviously. There will be games where teams who aren't gelling in every department throughout their first team get the better of us. You aren't going to get an immediate, over night success with the kind of massive changes we've seen this summer.

Coining our progress a 'false dawn' every time we slip, and in this case before we've even slipped, is just needlessly negative and whiney - business as usual for you then.

Good grief……. don't pick your nose, your head may cave in.

 

[JUPITER]

Good grief……. don't pick your nose, your head may cave in.

Attack the post, not the poster.

If you think my critique of this ridiculous, completely superfluous and needlessly negative thread is wrong then tell me why.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Your joking, right? LvG will not feel it is done until he sees that his first choice set of centerbacks and wingbacks play and then fail. Until then, his presumption is that it wasn't the system that failed, but the personel. It that case, he may be right? I am not convinced either that 3 backs can't work if we have the right people in front of them.

We simply do not have the players to make this system work, so why would he preserve with it when we do have the players to make the diamond, or similar work perfectly for us.

If he wants to persist with it he needs to buy the players to do it, and in that I mean adequate back up too, until then I firmly believe it will be four at the back from now on.

 

[Oneunited26]

We simply do not have the players to make this system work, so why would he preserve with it when we do have the players to make the diamond, or similar work perfectly for us.

If he wants to persist with it he needs to buy the players to do it, and in that I mean adequate back up too, until then I firmly believe it will be four at the back from now on.

Plus playing 4 at the back, we can fit in all of blind herrera di maria mata rooney falcao or RVP, we do not need to rely on the fullbacks for width, di maria and sometimes herrera will provide us that

 

[Fully Fledged]

Where's optopn 3 Too early to tell

In my fantasy world I'd like to draw parallels with our 4-0 thrashing of Wigan in 2008 after a dodgy start. In reality I don't think we'll win the league, and I'll still consider squeezing into the top 4 a successful season.

I will be happy if we finish top 4 this season. That doesn't mean that I don't hope/believe they can win the league I just don't expect them to do it.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Plus playing 4 at the back, we can fit in all of blind herrera di maria mata rooney falcao or RVP, we do not need to rely on the fullbacks for width, di maria and sometimes herrera will provide us that

Just makes too much sense, and I'm sure LvG sees it, he was playing the 5 at the back when we didn't have Blind, Di Maria, and Falcao, now we do there is no need for it.

 

[Oneunited26]

Just makes too much sense, and I'm sure LvG sees it, he was playing the 5 at the back when we didn't have Blind, Di Maria, and Falcao, now we do there is no need for it.

I do not think falcao so much, but defiantly blind and di maria are a huge cogs in the system change. VG has a potential great midfield on his hands if it can get better and work with the diamond, having blind and mata on the top and bottom tips of the diamond, and having herrera and di maria able to drive forward to support mata, while blind mops up, gives the forwards great service not to mention rafeal and rojo getting forward makes this one hell of a team going forward. And this time the midfield has legs in blind herrera and di maria

You look at the diamond and who is in with the fullbacks in there, rafeal rojo herrera di maria mata rooney falcao or RVP all are being asked to attack, which could be exciting.

rafeal____rojo
_____blind_____
herrera di maria
_____mata____
rooney falcao/RVP

herrera di maria mata rooney falcao or RVP I see match winner from all of those, and those guys take up 6 of the starting 11. In the past after ronaldo left, we would have 1 maybe 2 match winners in there, with none of them coming from midfield. So it is nice going into games, with your midfield capable of scoring goals and dominating a game, especially the bread and butter ones

I want teams looking back at us, and thinking you are in for the longest 90 minutes of your lives

 

[rcoobc]

A good attack wins games, a good defence wins championships.

Or it does in the NFL anyway. And for us. Our 2 Champions League wins, and the periods of dominance within the English game came from having "great" defences. When we had poorer defences by our standards, even with some of the best attackers within the game (RVN, Rooney, Ronaldo) we won less. Probably. Ish.

Anyway, not a false dawn, but City and Chelsea have got far better than they were in the last 7 years. If we are to start winning the main two trophies, we need to sort out the defence.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

We'll see this weekend. Regardless of whether or not it's a false down, or a proper turn of the corner, there will be more bumps along the way. But it's impossible to say that we've turned the corner before we've been able to string some good results together, so it's necessary to start performing week in and week out now.

Once we do that, I'll be happy to proclaim era of false dawns is behind us. I think this might be it, but I'm not sure. I think we're very reliant on our new players to lead the way, because our old guard seem to be slow to adapt to the new foshiffy.

 

[Loublaze]

We didn't play as good as the QPR game once last season.

And we didn't have nearly as strong a team.

Not saying we'll be cruising from here but with the players we have at our disposal, a certain standard is guaranteed.

Newcastle United 4-0 away with Mata and Kagawa running things? Our 5-0 win away to Leverkusen in the CL?

 

[Jev]

Newcastle United 4-0 away with Mata and Kagawa running things? Our 5-0 win away to Leverkusen in the CL?

I don't think we had nearly as much control over those games. We were ruthlessly effective against Leverkusen but weren't nearly as inventive in attack as we were on Sunday.

 

[NK86]

If Di Maria and Herrera are healthy and we play 4 at the back, I think we'll create too many chances for our attackers who are too good for us not to keep battering weaker teams.

Our record against big teams could be horrific, average or great. Chelsea look ready to hit 85+ points, which we won't sniff, but I don't see why we can't think of ourselves in a 6 team league with Citeh, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Everton and United for 3 CL spots.

Also, the CL is starting and there's the African Cup, so if we're as good as those teams, we should edge them out.

Any you are basing this wholly on the first four games (out of 38 to be played!) or do you have some sort of crystal ball which we could all use to be fair?

 

[sun_tzu]

Any you are basing this wholly on the first four games (out of 38 to be played!) or do you have some sort of crystal ball which we could all use to be fair?

in fairness thats only 3 points more than chelsea managed last season - given their form and increased squad depth I dont thinks its unrealistic to see them being capable of that. Will we match that - well if we can replicate the QPR performance week in and week out including against the very top teams then its possible - but even with United tinted glasses on that looks to be a big ask.

 

[Dante]

Newcastle United 4-0 away with Mata and Kagawa running things? Our 5-0 win away to Leverkusen in the CL?

We had 56% and 52% possession in those two games, respectively. It was 69% against QPR.

Obviously, possession isn't the be all and end all, but this was a very different kind of performance.

Our best games last season were played on the counter (I'd include the Arsenal performances and maybe even Munich).

Against QPR, we managed to monopolise the ball whilst still creating chances. If your team is capable of doing both, you know you're onto a winner.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

What on earth is wrong with the phrase 'false dawn'? Some people on here would argue about the colour of shite.

I voted no. Its uncertain of course, but I'm fairly confident we can start putting together a top-four calibre run of form. Rafael's fitness is actually one of my main concerns. He makes such a difference to the quality of our play on the right wing when he's available and in form.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We had 56% and 52% possession in those two games, respectively. It was 69% against QPR.

Obviously, possession isn't the be all and end all, but this was a very different kind of performance.

Our best games last season were played on the counter (I'd include the Arsenal performances and maybe even Munich).

Against QPR, we managed to monopolise the ball whilst still creating chances. If your team is capable of doing both, you know you're onto a winner.

Apparently we've got the second highest posession % in the league this season (8th last season). It does seem to indicate there's some real substance to what LvG's achieving with the team, despite the initial poor results. Interestingly, in one of last season's false dawns (admittedly a fairly dim one!) we beat Swansea 2 nil in January, despite having just 39% of the possession.