Any young central midfielders that stands out at united?

[Longlivekeano]

After the David Jones fiasco and supposedly the next big thing but flopped, who else do we look to to be our next midfield lynchpin in the centre?

TonyPark, do we have any outstanding youth players in our ranks that has a good chance of breaking through to United midfdield in 3-5 years?

Fergie once mentioned Ngangula as a possible midfiled destroer in the Vieira mould. However, I have hardly heard his name?Any good ones to watch out for people?

 

[Red17]

How is the David Jones departure a fiasco?

 

[DanNistelrooy]

How is the David Jones departure a fiasco?

I think he means how he didn't live up to the hype.

In relation to your thread, I 've heard some good reports about Darron Gibson, and R.Jones looks like a decent battler

 

[Red17]

Fiasco? A very poor choice of word.

He did not get a chance - that's all. Does not mean he was a poor player. And with his contract up in Jun 07, it forced the issue.

A good example would be Klaas Jan Huntelaar. PSV signed him when he was making a lot of headlines but with Kezman and Jan Venegoor ahead of him then he had to move on. See where he is now. Sometimes circumstances just aren't right.

 

[M160RA]

With any luck, he'll be playing in the Premiership next season. I hope he succeeds, because he seems like a decent lad and a good professional. It's really a shame we weren't able to give him more chances at United, but it's a problem any young player at United is going to have unless he is a complete prodigy.

 

[sincher]

I think the truthful answer is 'No', though Gibson is highly rated by some. Going even younger, Hewson looks promising. I think Ritchie Jones and Ngalula will not make it at United.

 

[PS18]

Gibson looks a huge prospect and I've been really impressed by Hewson so far. Corrie Evans and Conor McCormack have lots of potential, as does Eikrem - although whether he'll cut is physically I'm not sure. Even younger, you've got Oliver Norwood who starred for England in the victory shield. We're pretty well stocked, you'd hope at least one/two of these will go on to be top players.

Don't see Ritchie Jones making it with us - might carve out a decent career in the lower leagues, but he's always struck me as a jack of all trades, master of none. N'Galula has missed so much football through injury that he's probably missed the boat as well.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Really hard to say......the above names all play the United way.....

at 16 level we have Norwood, James and Nick Ajose who are all good prospects....

at 18 ......Hewson, McCormack, Corry Evans who I like a lot....

They all lack a bit of pace but you can't tell.....

The one who has surpsrised me with his composure and intelligence is Kieran Lee.....the boy had great balance and is two footed......but he has only really developed since hitting the reserves.....

 

[Longlivekeano]

Cheers for the information guys.
But isnt Kieran Lee an overlapping left back? I can see that he has bags of pace and confidence to take opposing players on. However, he suffers from the same problem as Rossi, which is a lack of size.Rossi is only as tall as Van Der Sar's shoulders!Kieran Lee lacks upper body strength. This is quite an alarming trait inherent among most of uor youngsters. Dont we have a nutritionist or dietician expert or something? Most of our skilled players inthe past 2-3 years were not given much chance partly because of lack of size to cope with the hustle and bustle of the EPL me thinks. One thinks of Eagles, Jones who were stick figures

 

[RedPhil1957]

Cheers for the information guys.
But isnt Kieran Lee an overlapping left back? I can see that he has bags of pace and confidence to take opposing players on. However, he suffers from the same problem as Rossi, which is a lack of size.Rossi is only as tall as Van Der Sar's shoulders!Kieran Lee lacks upper body strength. This is quite an alarming trait inherent among most of uor youngsters. Dont we have a nutritionist or dietician expert or something? Most of our skilled players inthe past 2-3 years were not given much chance partly because of lack of size to cope with the hustle and bustle of the EPL me thinks. One thinks of Eagles, Jones who were stick figures

no we take players on abilty not because they are built like bloody giants at 14 which is now policy at many clubs..........Bestie was once rejected as too small!!
Kieran Lee has played in a number of positions which is club policy designed to make them better all round players. With Jones it was a not lack of strength more short of pace; he needed lots of playing in the first team to gain the experience needed to prove (or not) his ability at the very top level.

This is the problem teams like United have, very few games when they can take risks to blood young players and most of those games are needed to keep up the match fitness of the non starting squad players. That is why all the big clubs now use the loan system to try and give the youngsters experience, even this guarantees nothing as shown by Rossi who desperately needs experience in games is taken on by Newcastle expecting to play some part in matches regularly and finds they have bought in an experienced extra striker on deadline day, result few matches and some of those played as a loan striker.

 

[Feed Me]

as nice as itis to see home grown talent come through - maybe united should follow the arsenal example a bit more and bring in the cream of european and world talent - not done since rossi and pique.

i mean vela, denilson and fabregas all spring to mind - and not exactly astronomical fees either..

 

[RedPhil1957]

as nice as itis to see home grown talent come through - maybe united should follow the arsenal example a bit more and bring in the cream of european and world talent - not done since rossi and pique.

i mean vela, denilson and fabregas all spring to mind - and not exactly astronomical fees either..

Fabregas has done very well but the others are unproven as yet. Arsenal have got some criticism for not being in a position to challenge for the title and last season nearly had the financial disaster of finishing outside CL places. Can you imagine the mud aimed at United if they were in same position not least from their own supporters.

 

[peterstorey]

Arsenal have got some criticism for not being in a position to challenge for the title and last season nearly had the financial disaster of finishing outside CL places.

Limited flak since most people recognised that we only struggled to beat Spurs since we were so focused on winning the CL, which we very nearly did. It wouldn't have been a financial disaster either since we pocketed an extra £15M for our exploits (ie the revenue budgeted to be earned this season).

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Limited flak since most people recognised that we only struggled to beat Spurs since we were so focused on winning the CL, which we very nearly did. It wouldn't have been a financial disaster either since we pocketed an extra £15M for our exploits (ie the revenue budgeted to be earned this season).

Bringing kids through the system is the United way!!!

I'm happy with how we do things.....a balance of nurturing our own, buying some young talent and developing them further and buying experienced professionals....

I don't think we want or need a different system......and we certainly don't want to change our philosophy or culture!!!!

Our record in bringing kids through is unparalleled in the UK and perhaps only comparable to Ajax in Europe.....

Thanks for the advice anyway......

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

as nice as itis to see home grown talent come through - maybe united should follow the arsenal example a bit more and bring in the cream of european and world talent - not done since rossi and pique.

i mean vela, denilson and fabregas all spring to mind - and not exactly astronomical fees either..

See my comments above.......

 

[londonredmaniac]

Our youth seems to be a constant subject for scrutiny by United supporters. mainly because we were spoiled with the fledglings in the nineties and i can understand that.

Jones was a dissapointment i dont think he really had much a chance amoung class players in the first team and ebanks blake was a shame, as was the german lad Nuymeur and probably the 'new viera' Nguala (but his as well as blakes has been injury based).

 

[Tribec]

I'm not sure that Kieran Lee has found his best position and will possibly end up in a Phil Neville type role in the first in a couple of years. Apart from that, it will be interesting to see how Ritchie Jones comes back from his loan. Whilst I would like to see him break through, I've yet to see how he'll add to the first team.

As for David Jones, I feel sorry for the kid, he's seemingly been made the scapegoat for 2 games to which 10 other people played as well. He was the only one to shine in the Exeter cup game at Old Trafford, and yet we didn't see him again due to loans etc, till the start of this year. He then get's the same sort of treatment after the Southend game, but to a greater level by him being sold.

Jones is very much in the Carrick mold and as Carrick is fairly young himself, it didn't look like Jones was going to dislodge someone we've just paid £14m for. In a small way, I hope he comes back to haunt us one day, and show us what we've lost.

 

[julesee]

Bringing kids through the system is the United way!!!

I'm happy with how we do things.....a balance of nurturing our own, buying some young talent and developing them further and buying experienced professionals....

I don't think we want or need a different system......and we certainly don't want to change our philosophy or culture!!!!

Our record in bringing kids through is unparalleled in the UK and perhaps only comparable to Ajax in Europe.....

Thanks for the advice anyway......

Personally Tony I am starting to worry that Fergie willingness to blood youngster has died ... Jones being the first example that comes to mind

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

But isn't he blooding Richardson jules031272?

 

[Longlivekeano]

Richardson was bought rather than coming through the youth ranks. I remember we paid something like 250,000 pounds for im' or something close to that figure when he was 16. His kind of signing was a Pennant or Walcott kind of signing where a club bought the almost the polished and finished version without the experience of top class games. We had done this earlier with Sharpe (which worked). I am not sure how Rossi (Parma), Pique (Barcelona)and Lee Martin (MK Dons) will turn out though.These kind of players can either be a "Pennant" or a "Fabregas" and that's the risks clubs have to take these days

To not play these kind of players at least in 10-15 games will be like a slp in the face for the club's won trasnfer signing policy. Such appearances which Richardson makes (despite his cnut like performances) might even have been due to a clause in his transfer contract when he came to us from his original club. These clauses were perhaps meant to be "defensive mechanisms" such that these kind of players are assured of matches rather than being left unfended to compete with other United youngsters and then fall wayward to become a butcher or something. Had they not transferred, they would have at least continued to be a star in a second division club and make a career out of that...

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

I think many people are missing the point.........

Firstly......from the beginning of school football 100 years ago.....football clubs could only sign players when they had left school on Schoolboy terms until they could sign as an apprentice when the new school term started...just like any other work....you left school and got an apprenticeship..

So, these kids were 15 and 16....and every team had a chance of signing them...some kids were already having trials around the country...other training once or twice a week at their local clubs.....but they were all still at school and therefore 'potentially' could be signed by any club once they left school.

Now, at United we obtained ALL our youth players in this way......we got them at 15/16 and nurtured them for the first team....(every club did the same)....some kids we got (Edwards, Charlton, Beckham etc) and others we didn't (Armfield, Owen) ... and so forth.

Today we still do the same thing....we get kids at 15/16 (Richardson, Eagles, Martin etc)...except that they are no longer just at school but signed up by Academies...either ours or someone elses'.....if they are at West Ham like Richardson then we pay compensation to take him......that's how the system works.....but to say that we didn't develop him or he didn't come through our youth ranks is like saying that Bobby Charlton didn't because he used to train at Newcastle with his Uncle or because Duncan Edwards used to train at Wolves!!!!!

The likes of Richardson all came at 15/16 (like it has always been done)...he played in our junior teams for three years.....played in the successful FA Youth team, worked his way through the reserves and finally into the first team......we certainly DID develop him....(West Ham obviously did too) ....but nevertheless he is a United junior just like all the others....

Secondly....we talk about Jones and others who haven't made it.....the last time I looked we had John O'Shea, Darren Fletcher and Kieran Richardson all playing their part in our current place at the top of the table......and we also had Neville, Scholes and Giggs in the team.....so nearly half of the first team squad on any given matchday is made up of our juniors......feckING BRILLIANT!!!

I couldn't ask for more!!!

Virtually a whole team together only happens once a generation...the 1950's and 1990's.....both Manchester United teams......if we can just keep producing one a year that will continue our culture and tradition and prove a successful Youth Strategy........

But it does mean that many players will not make it at our club.....however over the years we have given football careers to 2/3 of all our youth team players.....150 have played in the first team for United since 1952.....52 have played more than 70 games........18% go on to become internationals.....

So....when a young lad joins United at 15.......he has a 66% chance of making it as a footballer in general and a 33% chance of playing first team football at United.......

We develop them OK.....and we are the most successful in Britain and maybe globally.......our system works fine....but make sure our expectations are realistic.....support the youngsters.....debate who might make it.....

That's what supporting the kids is all about!!!

 

[julesee]

Tony....but what's your opinion? How do the likes of Rossi, Martin, Dave Jones compare to Oshea, fletcher, richardson etc? Cos its not immediately apparent to me that they are worse at the same age than the latter three....perhaps I'm misguided - I've only been watching the juniors on MUTV for the last couple of years - but I do feel that some of these youngsters should be getting the odd game when we're 2-3 goals up against the opposition.

 

[PS18]

trouble is there aren't that many occasions when we're 2/3 goals up these days, and the ever-increasing financial pressures on managers, including fergie, means it's a risk to put unproven players on a five-man bench purely in the hope that we might get a few goals ahead. you have a point (not bringing jones on at 3-0 up vs kobenhavn is a case in point), but these pressures combined with the steadily-worsening standard of reserve football means we're (in theory) better served sending the better kids out on loan.

personally i've banged the drum for a couple of years for an increase in the number of substitutes a club is able to name in the premiership, from five to seven like in the champions league - only in the premiership, there'd be a stipulation that at least two of the subs must be players brought through the club's academy and under a certain age.

 

[samabachan]

trouble is there aren't that many occasions when we're 2/3 goals up these days, and the ever-increasing financial pressures on managers, including fergie, means it's a risk to put unproven players on a five-man bench purely in the hope that we might get a few goals ahead. you have a point (not bringing jones on at 3-0 up vs kobenhavn is a case in point), but these pressures combined with the steadily-worsening standard of reserve football means we're (in theory) better served sending the better kids out on loan.

personally i've banged the drum for a couple of years for an increase in the number of substitutes a club is able to name in the premiership, from five to seven like in the champions league - only in the premiership, there'd be a stipulation that at least two of the subs must be players brought through the club's academy and under a certain age.

Wasabout to mention this myself, but you've put it better than I ever could have.

 

[ManRyan]

I think many people are missing the point.........

Firstly......from the beginning of school football 100 years ago.....football clubs could only sign players when they had left school on Schoolboy terms until they could sign as an apprentice when the new school term started...just like any other work....you left school and got an apprenticeship..

So, these kids were 15 and 16....and every team had a chance of signing them...some kids were already having trials around the country...other training once or twice a week at their local clubs.....but they were all still at school and therefore 'potentially' could be signed by any club once they left school.

Now, at United we obtained ALL our youth players in this way......we got them at 15/16 and nurtured them for the first team....(every club did the same)....some kids we got (Edwards, Charlton, Beckham etc) and others we didn't (Armfield, Owen) ... and so forth.

Today we still do the same thing....we get kids at 15/16 (Richardson, Eagles, Martin etc)...except that they are no longer just at school but signed up by Academies...either ours or someone elses'.....if they are at West Ham like Richardson then we pay compensation to take him......that's how the system works.....but to say that we didn't develop him or he didn't come through our youth ranks is like saying that Bobby Charlton didn't because he used to train at Newcastle with his Uncle or because Duncan Edwards used to train at Wolves!!!!!

The likes of Richardson all came at 15/16 (like it has always been done)...he played in our junior teams for three years.....played in the successful FA Youth team, worked his way through the reserves and finally into the first team......we certainly DID develop him....(West Ham obviously did too) ....but nevertheless he is a United junior just like all the others....

Secondly....we talk about Jones and others who haven't made it.....the last time I looked we had John O'Shea, Darren Fletcher and Kieran Richardson all playing their part in our current place at the top of the table......and we also had Neville, Scholes and Giggs in the team.....so nearly half of the first team squad on any given matchday is made up of our juniors......feckING BRILLIANT!!!

I couldn't ask for more!!!

Virtually a whole team together only happens once a generation...the 1950's and 1990's.....both Manchester United teams......if we can just keep producing one a year that will continue our culture and tradition and prove a successful Youth Strategy........

But it does mean that many players will not make it at our club.....however over the years we have given football careers to 2/3 of all our youth team players.....150 have played in the first team for United since 1952.....52 have played more than 70 games........18% go on to become internationals.....

So....when a young lad joins United at 15.......he has a 66% chance of making it as a footballer in general and a 33% chance of playing first team football at United.......

We develop them OK.....and we are the most successful in Britain and maybe globally.......our system works fine....but make sure our expectations are realistic.....support the youngsters.....debate who might make it.....

That's what supporting the kids is all about!!!

Feckin great post, Tony !
...a great rant !!!

 

[oldBarney]

I think many people are missing the point.........

Firstly......from the beginning of school football 100 years ago.....football clubs could only sign players when they had left school on Schoolboy terms until they could sign as an apprentice when the new school term started...just like any other work....you left school and got an apprenticeship..

So, these kids were 15 and 16....and every team had a chance of signing them...some kids were already having trials around the country...other training once or twice a week at their local clubs.....but they were all still at school and therefore 'potentially' could be signed by any club once they left school.

Now, at United we obtained ALL our youth players in this way......we got them at 15/16 and nurtured them for the first team....(every club did the same)....some kids we got (Edwards, Charlton, Beckham etc) and others we didn't (Armfield, Owen) ... and so forth.

Today we still do the same thing....we get kids at 15/16 (Richardson, Eagles, Martin etc)...except that they are no longer just at school but signed up by Academies...either ours or someone elses'.....if they are at West Ham like Richardson then we pay compensation to take him......that's how the system works.....but to say that we didn't develop him or he didn't come through our youth ranks is like saying that Bobby Charlton didn't because he used to train at Newcastle with his Uncle or because Duncan Edwards used to train at Wolves!!!!!

The likes of Richardson all came at 15/16 (like it has always been done)...he played in our junior teams for three years.....played in the successful FA Youth team, worked his way through the reserves and finally into the first team......we certainly DID develop him....(West Ham obviously did too) ....but nevertheless he is a United junior just like all the others....

Secondly....we talk about Jones and others who haven't made it.....the last time I looked we had John O'Shea, Darren Fletcher and Kieran Richardson all playing their part in our current place at the top of the table......and we also had Neville, Scholes and Giggs in the team.....so nearly half of the first team squad on any given matchday is made up of our juniors......feckING BRILLIANT!!!

I couldn't ask for more!!!

Virtually a whole team together only happens once a generation...the 1950's and 1990's.....both Manchester United teams......if we can just keep producing one a year that will continue our culture and tradition and prove a successful Youth Strategy........

But it does mean that many players will not make it at our club.....however over the years we have given football careers to 2/3 of all our youth team players.....150 have played in the first team for United since 1952.....52 have played more than 70 games........18% go on to become internationals.....

So....when a young lad joins United at 15.......he has a 66% chance of making it as a footballer in general and a 33% chance of playing first team football at United.......

We develop them OK.....and we are the most successful in Britain and maybe globally.......our system works fine....but make sure our expectations are realistic.....support the youngsters.....debate who might make it.....

That's what supporting the kids is all about!!!

Where did you get the stats from?

If they're nailed on fact, then that is something for all involved in the youth team set ups over the years to be very proud of.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Where did you get the stats from?

If they're nailed on fact, then that is something for all involved in the youth team set ups over the years to be very proud of.

I am a Youth historian.....the stats are factual......relatively straightforward to analyse......450+ players have played in the FA Youth Cup (I have every team line-up since 1952).....how many play league football is in the record books as with all the other stuff...

The rest is just number crunching.....I then compared it against all the other Premiership clubs and a few in the lower divisions who have a good youth culture and we are head and shoulders above everyone.....

We are the top club with our youth players in areas like .....number of trophies, international appearances, league appearances, players making the first team (150+)....players playing over 70 league games (52).....and so on...

Our system works fine.......people just need to be realistic with expectations like I mentioned above in a previous post...

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Excellent Post TonyPark. You hit the nail right on the head

 

[Longlivekeano]

I think many people are missing the point.........

Firstly......from the beginning of school football 100 years ago.....football clubs could only sign players when they had left school on Schoolboy terms until they could sign as an apprentice when the new school term started...just like any other work....you left school and got an apprenticeship..

So, these kids were 15 and 16....and every team had a chance of signing them...some kids were already having trials around the country...other training once or twice a week at their local clubs.....but they were all still at school and therefore 'potentially' could be signed by any club once they left school.

Now, at United we obtained ALL our youth players in this way......we got them at 15/16 and nurtured them for the first team....(every club did the same)....some kids we got (Edwards, Charlton, Beckham etc) and others we didn't (Armfield, Owen) ... and so forth.

Today we still do the same thing....we get kids at 15/16 (Richardson, Eagles, Martin etc)...except that they are no longer just at school but signed up by Academies...either ours or someone elses'.....if they are at West Ham like Richardson then we pay compensation to take him......that's how the system works.....but to say that we didn't develop him or he didn't come through our youth ranks is like saying that Bobby Charlton didn't because he used to train at Newcastle with his Uncle or because Duncan Edwards used to train at Wolves!!!!!

The likes of Richardson all came at 15/16 (like it has always been done)...he played in our junior teams for three years.....played in the successful FA Youth team, worked his way through the reserves and finally into the first team......we certainly DID develop him....(West Ham obviously did too) ....but nevertheless he is a United junior just like all the others....

Secondly....we talk about Jones and others who haven't made it.....the last time I looked we had John O'Shea, Darren Fletcher and Kieran Richardson all playing their part in our current place at the top of the table......and we also had Neville, Scholes and Giggs in the team.....so nearly half of the first team squad on any given matchday is made up of our juniors......feckING BRILLIANT!!!

I couldn't ask for more!!!

Virtually a whole team together only happens once a generation...the 1950's and 1990's.....both Manchester United teams......if we can just keep producing one a year that will continue our culture and tradition and prove a successful Youth Strategy........

But it does mean that many players will not make it at our club.....however over the years we have given football careers to 2/3 of all our youth team players.....150 have played in the first team for United since 1952.....52 have played more than 70 games........18% go on to become internationals.....

So....when a young lad joins United at 15.......he has a 66% chance of making it as a footballer in general and a 33% chance of playing first team football at United.......

We develop them OK.....and we are the most successful in Britain and maybe globally.......our system works fine....but make sure our expectations are realistic.....support the youngsters.....debate who might make it.....

That's what supporting the kids is all about!!!

Good man