Are managers who neglect cup competitions the real frauds?

[eire-red]

I genuinely don’t think anyone born after about 1990 is particularly fussed about the domestic cups. If you’re comparing 5th and a cup to second, then no player would pick a cup. Playing in the CL is miles bigger than winning a domestic cup.

I was comparing 4th and a cup to 2nd place. Securing CL qualification should be a priority if you are not challenging for major honours. But who in gods name would prefer to finish second and not have a medal at the end of the season? Just listen to the United players talk about that Europa League win.

Not sure where 5th came from. For United, of course CL qualification is a must, for revenue, big name attraction and all that. For Leicester, I believe they would take an FA Cup win over CL qualification.

You can't paint every team with the same brush, it's conditional on how competitive you are for major trophies. If you're in the mix for the league and CL, then of course you can be excused for not taking the cups as seriously. If you're hovering around those 3rd/4th/5th spots consistently, I believe most players would prefer a trophy. Then again, it's very much dependent on expectation and situation surrounding the club in question.

 

[1966]

Winning the Fa Cup should hold the prize of the 4th Champions League spot. It's one of the most popular cups in history and winning it should mean something. Managers in recent years have been calling finishing 4th like winning a trophy, I can't stand this.

Same. Good post.

 

[Dominos]

Was SAF a fraud?

But what I will say is that is that neglecting domestic cup competitions and Europa league until your club has won a league title is extremely naive and arrogant.

Winning a cup can often be the launch pad to going on to bigger things. In a title race, the team that wins the League Cup in March etc usually gets the confidence and extra drive to go on and win the league.

So while I understand a manager whose team have been winning the league regularly and have genuine Champions League winning ambitions neglecting domestic cups, I think Poch doing it at Spurs was shortsighted.

I think this is a myth and in the cases you will point to you're confusing correlation with causation. The better teams tend to win the trophies so of course some of them are going to go on to further success.

You only have to look at Van Gaal's FA cup winning side and Mourinho's league cup/Europa winning side to see there's not much reason to think trophies will act as a catalyst for further success, both those sides fell apart and we had to rebuild them.

If you look further afield, Birmingham league cup under Mcleish, Wigan FA cup under Martinez, Spurs league under Juande Ramos, Swansea league cup under Laudrup, Arsenal's recent FA cups under Wenger and Arteta... They hardly reached great heights following their cup compeition success.

 

[alexthelion]

I think the FA Cup deserves more love and respect. It's one of the oldest football competitions in the world and is filled with history. Any United manager who doesn't take it seriously goes down in my estimation.

The League Cup can do one though. Bring out the kids.

Yep, don't understand the mentality of ignoring trophies. If it's there to be won, go for it.

Like the suggestion made earlier that the league cup is for non-european competition teams.

 

[alexthelion]

Winning the Fa Cup should hold the prize of the 4th Champions League spot. It's one of the most popular cups in history and winning it should mean something. Managers in recent years have been calling finishing 4th like winning a trophy, I can't stand this.

Agree with this.

Or, bring back the Cup Winners Cup.

 

[GoalooUS]

it depends, I mean it depends on the specific situation of the season, including the ranking of the team, the progress of the season and the situation of the team's injuries, etc. Personally, I think league title is more valuable than that of FA cup or league cup

 

[MileStolar]

I think better would be making it only for teams who aren’t in Europe - gives lower league clubs and smaller PL teams like West Ham and Arsenal a better chance at silverware.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Fans who rather get top 4 than win trophies are the real frauds. What is the point of supporting a team to just do what gives the owners some extra money?

 

[Murray3007]

Much easier to do if you have a big squad of players which most clubs don't and there is far to much money in the big competition now, personally think if your in Europe you should not be allowed to not enter the league cup, would mean a new team gets a chance of the Europa league every season, which for some clubs would be massive and gives the team in Europe a bit more rest earlier in the season, sure its the Greece league where there top division enters the cup competition in the 3rd round and need to play away from home which i think is a great idea for the FA Cup gives all the smaller teams some much needed money, well usually anyway.

 

[Sky1981]

Why does it always have to be a fraud?

Pep is a fraud,
Jose is a fraud
Moyes is a fraud

Most managers have achieved much more than any of us will ever have in our lives, some are better at cup, some are just lucky with cup, some just choose their battle better.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

Surely some of it comes down to the boards at individual clubs who outline what the goals of the manager and team are? Im sure most boards just want the gravy train of money that is CL football and this is why you see in the modern era clubs ignoring the Cups in favour of finishing top four.

Im not sure how much you can blame the manager if orders are coming down from above. Wont be the manager for too long if you win the FA Cup and fail to get top four when that was outlined at the start of the season as a goal by the board.

 

[Isotope]

I think better would be making it only for teams who aren’t in Europe - gives lower league clubs and smaller PL teams like West Ham and Arsenal a better chance at silverware.

I see what you did there, man.

 

[Isotope]

Yup, when you're winning trophies on a regular basis then naturally the FA Cup, Europa and League Cup may become a 2nd or 3rd tier trophy. But for a club in a trophy drought you have to take them seriously, not to do so is in my opinion an insult to the fans. Not only that but what message does that really send out to your players? What example are you giving a group that have been starved of success? Given it's been a while since we won a trophy i'm glad Ole takes all of them seriously, we need to be a more professional club looking to win trophies on a regular basis and ultimately we can't pick and choose what we go for. I think it also helps motivation and morale for the club to go deep into competitions and helps in the long run as it gives your players more experience of big games.

I'd say good manager should be more realistic with their target. If you have small squad or good First XI but shit bench, he shouldn't go hard for every possible competitions out there. That's just silly and naive.

Good manager should be able to pick and choose his battles, by understand the strength of his team.

Logically, it's easier to keep more focus, for manager and players, with lesser competitions. It's easier for players to keep motivated and fit when playing 40 games instead of 60 games, unless you have Pep Barca's doctor. Manager and players have more time to prepare and study the opponent between each game also.

Unless, of course, if the team is big and good enough to handle all competitions, of which he should go chasing every possible trophy.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

If a bottom half team wins a cup they should get into Europe as well. What way I dont know. Extra qualifying round?

 

[RashyForPM]

FA Cup has taken a backseat for years now. SAF fielded a B team in a semi final in his last few seasons (did we lose it vs Everton on pens??). It's just not as important.

Foster
Rafael Rio Vidic Fabio
Park Gibson Anderson Welbeck
Tevez Macheda

One of the weakest lineups of the season, made up of 9 fringe players and the two main CBS And yet no one would have batted an eyelid because we had just made the CL semis a few days before. This year though, the more I think about it, it’s more important as aside from the league, the FA Cup should be the competition we go for. If I had to pick between the oldest and best domestic cup competition in the world or Europe’s 2nd tier competition, I know which one I’d choose.

 

[tenpoless]

It depends on the condition of the team, if it's hampered by injuries (or if it's a team with little depth) and the team is in a place where it's not 'secure' in it's position, e.g: CL is a target and the team is currently at 4th place, only 1 point ahead of the 5th place then by all means prioritize the goal first which is to get CL football. It's called prioritizing.

But if the team is up and flying, battering teams left and right and the manager prevents them from going further aka not trying to win all the competitions they're in then he's... cough cough Klopp.. I mean a loser. It's not prioritizing, it's just a loser mentality. Great teams should be winning things but the manager is preventing them from happening? madness.

 

[rcoobc]

Same debate for 20 years but the fa cup won't be meaningful until there is a CL place on the end of it. But it doesn't deserve one given a team can win it playing none of the big boys.

Small club mentality to slack it off though, shows you can't compete on two fronts

 

[rcoobc]

Foster
Rafael Rio Vidic Fabio
Park Gibson Anderson Welbeck
Tevez Macheda

One of the weakest lineups of the season, made up of 9 fringe players and the two main CBS And yet no one would have batted an eyelid because we had just made the CL semis a few days before. This year though, the more I think about it, it’s more important as aside from the league, the FA Cup should be the competition we go for. If I had to pick between the oldest and best domestic cup competition in the world or Europe’s 2nd tier competition, I know which one I’d choose.

Same. Domestic Double > Premier League and Europa League

 

[Isotope]

If I had to pick between the oldest and best domestic cup competition in the world or Europe’s 2nd tier competition, I know which one I’d choose.

Playing by the best League in the world also.

 

[Denis' cuff]

The Cup really needs a competitive incentive added. Since that was taken away, and the aura of Wembley with the soulless rebuild (which cost double the original estimate) is it any wonder nobody gives a shite about it? fecking FA... they couldn’t be more incompetent if they tried. In fact, if they tried to be incompetent, it’d probably be an improvement.

 

[Siorac]

Why does it always have to be a fraud?

Pep is a fraud,
Jose is a fraud
Moyes is a fraud

Most managers have achieved much more than any of us will ever have in our lives, some are better at cup, some are just lucky with cup, some just choose their battle better.

Not to mention that the word 'fraud' implies intentional deception. It suggests that Guardiola, for example, considers himself incompetent but keeps up appearances in order to draw a nice huge salary and bamboozle the footballing world like a Catalan Frank William Abagnale who is obsessed with passing instead of airlines.

In reality, these managers may or may not be great at what they do but they certainly believe they possess the right skills, that they have the right ideas about football. They're not snake oil salesmen who are fully aware that their product is utterly worthless but keep peddling it to fool the gullible.

 

[adexkola]

Not to mention that the word 'fraud' implies intentional deception. It suggests that Guardiola, for example, considers himself incompetent but keeps up appearances in order to draw a nice huge salary and bamboozle the footballing world like a Catalan Frank William Abagnale who is obsessed with passing instead of airlines.

In reality, these managers may or may not be great at what they do but they certainly believe they possess the right skills, that they have the right ideas about football. They're not snake oil salesmen who are fully aware that their product is utterly worthless but keep peddling it to fool the gullible.

Let's make the movie now

 

[GMoore23]

Like most sports gold silver and bronze for top 3. There should be no prize for 4th place.
4 of the last 5 fa cup winners weren't in the champions league the following season. I think they were more deserving than the leagues 4th best team. Champions should be properly rewarded.

 

[Dancfc]

Was SAF a fraud?

But what I will say is that is that neglecting domestic cup competitions and Europa league until your club has won a league title is extremely naive and arrogant.

Winning a cup can often be the launch pad to going on to bigger things. In a title race, the team that wins the League Cup in March etc usually gets the confidence and extra drive to go on and win the league.

So while I understand a manager whose team have been winning the league regularly and have genuine Champions League winning ambitions neglecting domestic cups, I think Poch doing it at Spurs was shortsighted.

Does it really work out like that in reality? Maybe with Ferguson in 1990 but in general has domestic cup success really this springboard people make out?

When Mou won the league cup with us in 05 and 15 we had a very healthy lead at the top, Arsenal have won the FA Cup 4 times in the previous 8 season's and in terms of league performance they've not only failed to build on it but got worse, Liverpool's domestic cups under Houllier/Rafa/Dalgish never kicked them on, likewise United's under LVG/Mou and us under Gullit/Vialli.

Klopp appeared to have preferred to take a long term route to a big one as opposed to a quick domestic cup, and fair to say, it's worked!

 

[Siorac]

Let's make the movie now

Who will play Guardiola? I'm voting for The Rock, best choice by far.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I find the likes of Spurs ignoring these trophies hilarious. It's not like they lack room in their trophy cabinet.

 

[adexkola]

Who will play Guardiola? I'm voting for The Rock, best choice by far.

Yeah I like this but who's the Tom Hanks guy that eventually catches The Rock?

Obligatory fist fight/wrestling scene between the two at the end of course.

 

[Siorac]

Yeah I like this but who's the Tom Hanks guy that eventually catches The Rock?

Obligatory fist fight/wrestling scene between the two at the end of course.

Andy Serkis as Ole. The Rock is pummeling him at the end but a Bruno Fernandes penalty out of nowhere knocks him out cold.

 

[saintquin]

Same debate for 20 years but the fa cup won't be meaningful until there is a CL place on the end of it. But it doesn't deserve one given a team can win it playing none of the big boys.

Small club mentality to slack it off though, shows you can't compete on two fronts

I agree with this. What would happen if a team from a division below the Prem won the FA Cup?

 

[horsechoker]

Who will play Guardiola? I'm voting for The Rock, best choice by far.

"WALKER, the Rock says you will play centre mid"

"but gaffa, I think I'm better a..."

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK"

 

[Jacob]

Getting sick of all this fatigue and rest talk. We didn't hear this a few years back.

 

[adexkola]

I agree with this. What would happen if a team from a division below the Prem won the FA Cup?

They deserve it more than a team that finished second and won feck all

Neither team deserves to be in the CL though

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

I think this is a myth and in the cases you will point to you're confusing correlation with causation. The better teams tend to win the trophies so of course some of them are going to go on to further success.

You only have to look at Van Gaal's FA cup winning side and Mourinho's league cup/Europa winning side to see there's not much reason to think trophies will act as a catalyst for further success, both those sides fell apart and we had to rebuild them.

If you look further afield, Birmingham league cup under Mcleish, Wigan FA cup under Martinez, Spurs league under Juande Ramos, Swansea league cup under Laudrup, Arsenal's recent FA cups under Wenger and Arteta... They hardly reached great heights following their cup compeition success.

If two teams are competing for the league, the one that wins a cup in March can use that as a springboard and it’s an advantage.

Also, I might be wrong, but Wigan, Swansea, Arsenal (after 2006), Spurs in the 00s were never title challengers.

 

[Dominos]

If two teams are competing for the league, the one that wins a cup in March can use that as a springboard and it’s an advantage.

Also, I might be wrong, but Wigan, Swansea, Arsenal (after 2006), Spurs in the 00s were never title challengers.

Do they though, are these just words?

There will be examples of team who wins the league cup also winning the league, because the better teams tend to win the cups and sometimes they're going to win the league too.

United 2006, Chelsea 2007, United 2010, Liverpool 2012, City 2016, United 2017, City 2020 all won the league cup without winning the league that year - and a lot of them didn't win the league the following year either (in case you're suggesting it's a more longer term "springboard")