I know, City don't have a striker yet where are the excuses for them? It's just managing expectations at this stage as people know this season has to be damn good now.
Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?
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In the opinion of RedCafe, we need a new midfielder to be able to win the league. Also in the opinion of RedCafe, Milner, Henderson and even Wijnaldum were either crap or average. Yet klopp turned that into the backbone of a winning team. Henderson was a complete joke on here and if we had the Liverpool midfield then you'd still be making excuses. In fact, when you have options like Pogba, Bruno, VdB, Fred etc in midfield, there are no real excuses. We should still be able to put something together that resembles a functioning midfield in my opinion.
Everything in here is so obvious to me. I just can't....
05/06 was absolutely bonkers, even if we didn't noticed right away.
Of the 4 you mentioned Ole only plays Fred in central midfield.
For a functioning midfield you need CM who can pass and move and advance the ball from defensive 3rd to final 3rd and circulate the ball competently against packed defenses. So even if you thought McFred and Matic are good enough, the numbers just aren't there for a whole season.
The argument you make about Henderson and Milner can be made about Shaw and Fred. Ole has improved players since he became coach. However, Fred will never be much better than he is now.
Fred is like a pound shop Sami Khedira. He runs around and wins the ball and gives it to someone better. What we are lacking is the Xabi Alonso alongside him. McTominay in reality is more a Khedira type. Matic can't be counted on. Legs.
Find that new Carrick and we are an elite side. Until then we are pretenders but not obviously the creme de la creme.
Today's games showed that our main rivals all have much better options than us in that area: Kante, Jorginho, Kovacic, Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago, Rodri, Fernandinho, Gundogan, Ndidi, Tielemans... we don't have anything close to that level.
Matic, McFred, VDB are not good enough. Even if you put Pogba, this is not his best position, so yeah, this is our main flaw... for about 2 years.
Bringing 3 world class players in one window is awesome, but we failed to address our biggest need.
Matic, McFred, VDB are not good enough. Even if you put Pogba, this is not his best position, so yeah, this is our main flaw... for about 2 years.
Bringing 3 world class players in one window is awesome, but we failed to address our biggest need.
Look at every team. City don't have a striker at all ffs. It's all excuses. This team is good enough now on paper.
Look at our attackers and defence. Do you think klopp or pep don't win the league with this team?
Then that's on Ole. I watched Bruno play deeper at times for both Sporting and Portugal, before we signed him. He can play that position. I see no reason we can't play a midfield 3 that would dominate most, if not all others, but we just choose not to. Then you can have the likes of VdB, Fred or McTominay rotating in and out. Let's face it, we got outplayed in midfield again by Romeu and Ward Prowse...if you don't think we should have an answer to that in our squad then I don't know what to say. And I can give countless other examples from last season where we failed to really win the midfield battle against players of lower calibre, all in the name of 4231.
It's good enough to challenge but it's not obviously better than rival teams. Also it's not really an issue for Pep to have no #9 when he pioneered the false #9 system. In many ways Pep finds it harder to deal with an Aguero type striker than not. Look how he treated Eto'o and Zlatan.
So it all comes down to the coach. That's what I am saying. Us not succeeding will be down to Ole and the coaching staff not the quality of the overall staff.
Precisely this. You don't need a world class team to challenge. All depends on how you are coached.
No it doesn't. If you gave Pep our squad he would not be able to do as he likes because the midfield is incapable of executing his position based possession tactics. Fred's touch and passing when pressed isn't good enough to play for Pep, neither is Matic's or McTominay's. Pep is one of the best coaches in history but he can't work miracles.
This squad will compete under Ole but it's got some notable gaps. We might get lucky and have those gaps not exposed. But I think the current state of our midfield is comparable to when John O'Shea was getting games in it. So I won't blame Ole if it proves an Achilles heel this season.
100% agree that's why Ole and staff have no excuse except from just not being good enough. To me they absolutely need success this season.
It's not just players but how they're implemented. How the team operates as a whole, the shape we play in when in certain phases. It's all wrong and not set up to win the midfield or even play through midfield. Even with Xabi Alonso we'd look shite if we set up how we do. And I see no reason why why 2 of Pogba, Bruno it VdB couldn't share the role of distributor from midfield in a 3.
Anyway we're splitting hairs because City won the league without a real striker on the pitch most games, and other deficiencies, whilst Chelsea won the CL with a weaker squad than ours. That's the point I was trying to make. Not many successful teams in history have the perfect team where they've spent considerably like we already have, so we should be challenging 100%.
There is no team in the Prem that's perfect.
We have a really good team. There is no excuse for not seriously challenging for the Premier League.
It's up to the coaching staff to maximize the squad.
We have a really good team. There is no excuse for not seriously challenging for the Premier League.
It's up to the coaching staff to maximize the squad.
Until Tuchel, Jorginho was being ridiculed, Kovacic looked average. Henderson was once a joke on here. Tielemans is a stretch as we could quite easily play Bruno in a similar role and he is obviously a much better player.
Personally I'm not 100% sold on Rodri either, I feel that City's midfield is much weaker than it was.
Yes, if Kante or Casemeiro or maybe even Ndidi were in the squad, the 4-3-3 with Bruno and Pogba, and a frightening front 3 (so many combinations!), would be a much more balanced and cohesive team.
I guess City miss a world-class forward, and Liverpool miss midfield creativity and depth.
Harder to identify an obvious Chelsea weakness - Lukaku isn't a big-game player, but they won the CL strikerless, so they can adapt.
I guess City miss a world-class forward, and Liverpool miss midfield creativity and depth.
Harder to identify an obvious Chelsea weakness - Lukaku isn't a big-game player, but they won the CL strikerless, so they can adapt.
We have one area literally cdm in which we actually have a couple options but just not top class everywhere else we have top class and World class players. That is good enough to win a league mate. Anyone saying different is protecting Ole. No team has world class players in every position it doesn't happen. The managers make do with what they have and make it work.
I disagree we’ve failed to address our main flaw, we had 3 main problems and addressed 2/3
But we had no right winger for about 10 years
Maguire needed a better partner
Cr7 is a luxury.
hopefully ole can either bring in some talent or change his style
Worst thing the club could do now us stop here. No point soending on what we have not to fix a glaring weakness. If it wasnt for Rashford being injured, id let Martial go with Daniel James and use that money for a DM.
Either way, one should go to use as funds.
Either way, one should go to use as funds.
With Ronaldo coming in, James, Martial and Lingard should definitely leave if they’re looking to get game time, preferably sold.
Rice would be more attainable then. Otherwise, Bissouma, Neves or Tchouameni would complete a great transfer window.
Rice would be more attainable then. Otherwise, Bissouma, Neves or Tchouameni would complete a great transfer window.
Did McFred play against Southampton?
Don't disagree about lost battles against inferior midfield. But if you think the answer is in the squad then surely you see Ole as the problem.
As for me I am not sure if someone else could do better, I feel maybe but I am not sure. So in that situation, and I have said this many times, either you give a great manager a decent squad or a decent manager a great squad. My opinion is Ole is a decent manager, with some great man management skills. So if we want to win something, we need to either change Ole or give him a better squad. And credit to him and the club for the most part they have done great with the squad buildup, with buys and improving players by Ole. And so I agree with the title of the post.
Another point is Ole doesn't play VdB much, and doesn't okay Pogba in CM let alone Bruno. So :shrug shoulders:
Fred and Mctominay are good enough but when one drops out we drop a level. We need someone to come in and be able to rotate with them.
Now this I agree with a lot, esp 2nd paragraph. You are absolutely right to argue we can have a functional midfield with our players with great coaching. That then leads to a different conclusion.
Anderson
Doesn't even need to be elite.
Bissouma or Neves in there with whoever is better out of McFred would probably be enough.
Bissouma or Neves in there with whoever is better out of McFred would probably be enough.
Before Ole, Fred, Shaw and Lindelof looked beyond hopeless, McT looked limited, Martial and Rashford had regressed, Pogba was in a running feud with the manager.
Under him, the Shaw is world class, Fred and Lindelof have improved, Pogba has found 2 different successful roles (CAM when he was caretaker, LW since last January), McT has added a lot to his game, Rashford has become a consistent threat, and Martial fulfilled his potential, became the 20-goal number 9 ... before becoming Heskey II.
I don't rate Ole much, but can't really accuse him of not improving players. Sadly, not enough in central midfield, but the transformation of the reputation of Kovacic/Jorginho isn't that different from Shaw/Fred/Rashford.
I saw a post that said Chelsea have made nearly £ 132m in sales this summer: Abraham, Tomori, Zouma, Giroud, Zappacosta, Livramento, and some others players. That's a lot of players and a lot of money, in a market that's supposedly difficult for selling teams.
If we managed to sell players like James, Lingard, Matic, Pereira, Dalot, we could've net at least £ 60m, a money we could've used to bring Trippier and a midfielder.
Now i think it's too late, but i'm hoping for a hail mary at deadline day, perhaps James and Lingard sales and we bring a midfielder...
If we managed to sell players like James, Lingard, Matic, Pereira, Dalot, we could've net at least £ 60m, a money we could've used to bring Trippier and a midfielder.
Now i think it's too late, but i'm hoping for a hail mary at deadline day, perhaps James and Lingard sales and we bring a midfielder...
I really do rate McTominay. United fans, particularly internet ones (hi everyone here, including me) tend to always think about big name signings (a la Maguire) or glamour players (a la Rashford) but McTominay for me is the kind of player who boosts the level of those playing alongside him in the same way that the likes of Fletcher, Park and Neville did in the past. He's got an awesome engine (when he's not needing groin surgery, that's gotta suck) and is strong and for me reliable. Not a bad player to have making the odd shot from distance or header in the box, either, which we don't often get from midfielders. If he'd played for the teams Rice has played for over the past year or two we'd probably all think he's the bees knees. I do think we need to replace the likes of Matic, Mata and to a lesser extent Fred, but I would say that McTominay is a superb player to have alongside a DM in central midfield, preferring Pogba to be one of the 3x attacking midfielders as opposed to a central midfielder. McTominay can be a box to box.
Not sure the FA or other teams in the Premier League would allow us play a 12 man team, although I can see how it would give us an advantage over the course of the season; I mean, Bruno is good, but...
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If we fail this season, it will be on the coaching 100%. I mean look at the City team that put 5 past Arsenal. 2 out of their 3 attackers were freaking Jesus and Torres. Their midfield 3 was Rodri, Silva and Gundogan. A midfield that a lot here would consider a light midfield if it was ours.
Get a world class CDM and ship out Lingard, James ASAP (hopefully deals are already in place to sell).
Martial maybe can be kept this window (I dislike him and his work ethic) but we still need coverage before getting a top striker (once Cavani and Ronaldo are moving on) e.g. Haaland in future.
Then we'll be a top team.
A CDM is a must.
Ndidi, Rice, Bissouma, Camavinga are fine with me.
Get the deal done and this is the best United team since 2008.
Martial maybe can be kept this window (I dislike him and his work ethic) but we still need coverage before getting a top striker (once Cavani and Ronaldo are moving on) e.g. Haaland in future.
Then we'll be a top team.
A CDM is a must.
Ndidi, Rice, Bissouma, Camavinga are fine with me.
Get the deal done and this is the best United team since 2008.
Does anyone thing McGuire would make a good DM? His passing is pretty decent. I'd rather keep Lindelof playing than Matic.
Just noticed Thomas Delaney went to Sevilla for peanuts. I don't know much about him but was he worth a punt for £5m-ish?
I think the budget has been spent.
I’m guessing that the club will focus on selling Lingard (£20m), James (£25m) and Jones (£5m), with the exception being sale of Dalot (£15m including loan fee and obligatory purchase) to bring in Trippier for similar money (add £5m to Dalot’s price).
I can see the January window seeing the club going out to fill the CDM hole with the £40-50m gathered from summer sales. Tchouameni? With Monaco out of UCL, he could be available for cheap in 4 months.
Would love to see Laimer from RB Leipzig be considered…stout defensively, covers every blade of grass and can pass progressively.
The club doesn’t need world class players at each position, but it does need balance and players that fit their roles and right now we simply don’t have the pieces at CDM.
I’m guessing that the club will focus on selling Lingard (£20m), James (£25m) and Jones (£5m), with the exception being sale of Dalot (£15m including loan fee and obligatory purchase) to bring in Trippier for similar money (add £5m to Dalot’s price).
I can see the January window seeing the club going out to fill the CDM hole with the £40-50m gathered from summer sales. Tchouameni? With Monaco out of UCL, he could be available for cheap in 4 months.
Would love to see Laimer from RB Leipzig be considered…stout defensively, covers every blade of grass and can pass progressively.
The club doesn’t need world class players at each position, but it does need balance and players that fit their roles and right now we simply don’t have the pieces at CDM.
The only reason people want a “pure DM” because they wanna chuck Pogba back into a midfield, and cream themselves thinking about Bruno and Pogba together as “dual 8s”. Its a position which he is not comfortable/natural(also moving Bruno from his best role) playing in. And then when he is not as good at CM, these same people will opine about how he is “inconsistent”.
Nobody would want a pure DM if he didnt have Pogba. Which is dumb when Pogba plays as LW/LM and a pure DM doesnt suit our other midfielders like McT, Fred, Matic etc, who actually play midfield for us.
Really hope Ole buys this “pure DM” and plays him in a pivot next to McT.
Nobody would want a pure DM if he didnt have Pogba. Which is dumb when Pogba plays as LW/LM and a pure DM doesnt suit our other midfielders like McT, Fred, Matic etc, who actually play midfield for us.
Really hope Ole buys this “pure DM” and plays him in a pivot next to McT.
Definitely not Maguire in midfield. Horribly slow, turning circle of an oil tanker.
Varane is probably the only option who could boss DM and actually do a good job. Him or Tuanzebe, but Tuanzebe is on loan!
Answer: NO
Just any decent midfielder.....Fred is crazy awful
Just any decent midfielder.....Fred is crazy awful