I think the bigger issue is more that we are not aggressive off the ball, less that we can't, we just don't have a strong enough mentality.
Are we physically and athletically the meekest squad in the league?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
The back 4 'getting stuck in' isn't enough.
Martinez is aggressive but slow and weak in the air. Casemiro is looking old and easily bypassed by quick players. Bruno has stamina but is very easily brushed off the ball, you'd hardly back him in a fight. Rashford quick but pathetic in any physical battle, lazy.
We were nowhere near as bad yesterday as the first two games. Eriksen is better positionally than Mount, Dalot seemed less off the pace than Shaw has been, and I think having Rashford on the wing just discourages teams to run ahead of him into the space.
I didn't like how often Casemiro let someone get past him though, even when he was there...and the first goal was pathetic. No other team would concede that. Should never have got past the first header and then Rashford just didn't look like he fancied going for it, which is an annoying trait of his.
We need to get into our heads that it has to be 100% for every loose ball or challenge. Not 100% for some of the game or some of the time which seemed to be the csse yesterday. We had a few good spells of not letting them breathe, then suddenly they'd walk through us for 5 minutes.
Either that or we need to get good enough to be 4-0 up and morally defeat the opposition. Then the players can dick about.
I didn't like how often Casemiro let someone get past him though, even when he was there...and the first goal was pathetic. No other team would concede that. Should never have got past the first header and then Rashford just didn't look like he fancied going for it, which is an annoying trait of his.
We need to get into our heads that it has to be 100% for every loose ball or challenge. Not 100% for some of the game or some of the time which seemed to be the csse yesterday. We had a few good spells of not letting them breathe, then suddenly they'd walk through us for 5 minutes.
Either that or we need to get good enough to be 4-0 up and morally defeat the opposition. Then the players can dick about.
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Yeah, agreed. Weird timing to start this thread. Stupid early goals aside, Forest barely laid a glove onto us until we got tired and nervous at the end and invited them onto us.
Brighton vs West Ham was an example of a strong, quick team being too athletic for their opponent. Defending deep and monstering them on the counter with pace and power. That didn’t happen on our match.
Yes, but it's not just being weak, it's being cowardly. We have many players who will pull out of challenges, hide from passes, slow down when they see something that looks too scary coming their way etc. The latter happens so often and you can see players like Rashford and Martial in particular visibly slowing down when something challenging is on the cards.
Couldn't agree more with the OP. It's one thing that has struck me for a while now. We don't physically dominate teams in the league. It's been the case since Fergie left. Mourinho did try to buy players that would fit that mould. And it's true that Pep has built a physically dominant team, that is also technically excellent. He understands the game and the league because he is the best manager by miles. It's an interesting discussion for sure. Flip side is you can win the other way, but in the PL it's especially difficult to do in my opinion.
We clearly have a lack of physicality. However the biggest crime here might be that we don't even make up for it in technicality. If we had good ball retention we could limit the amount of transitions we have to defend by keeping the ball, and therefore hiding our physical weaknesses. We've managed to build a team that still has very poor ball retention so the opposition have a field day winning the ball back and strolling past our weak players on the transitions.
However we don't help ourselves with the players attitude sometimes. I lose count of how many times in a game I feel like a loose ball should be ours and the opposition come out of it with possession and I'm left exasperated, and I think sometimes it's often lack of conviction and aggression as much as it is lack of physicality. Our attempt to defend the counter attack on the first goal yesterday being a clear example.
However we don't help ourselves with the players attitude sometimes. I lose count of how many times in a game I feel like a loose ball should be ours and the opposition come out of it with possession and I'm left exasperated, and I think sometimes it's often lack of conviction and aggression as much as it is lack of physicality. Our attempt to defend the counter attack on the first goal yesterday being a clear example.
I think the first two performances and meltdown first 4 minutes muddied the perspective of the game.
I didn't think we were amazing but we battled from 2-0 down to beat an opponent who weren't actually that bad. Biggest problem I thought was the wastefulness of Antony and Martial being a non entity then literally running away from the ball when he was through on goal.
Although I also didn't like that we were suddenly clinging on and panicking at home to 10 men. If City go 3-2 up in those circumstances they aren't going to suddenly start time wasting a hoofing balls into the channels.
I'm also still worried about this Mount + Bruno system as I just thought we looked far more balanced and like an actual functioning unit with Eriksen there, and Fernandes looked 10x better having his own space to operate in with a midfield behind him, which was 0% surprising. I think we definitely DO have a physicality issue with both Mount and Bruno there as neither are going to be stopping an opponent bulldozing past them, and when you addd people like Garnacho, Sancho, Rashford, Martial etc. in. that's a lot of weak points for an opposition to go at. Will just have to see what it pans out like in a few weeks when the players are more up to speed because there's no way Ten Hag is going to abandon it.
Fragile morelike
Yes, weak and pretty spineless. Which is why we lose most of the 50/50s against most teams in the league.
Martinez and Casemiro are aggressive but not much physical presence. Bruno’s work rate and distance covered says nothing about how weak he is, bouncing off of players most of the time. Mount is exactly the same as Bruno off the ball. Lacks the physicality to actually be effective with the running.
Front 3 are the worst though. Antony is a coward and scared of any physical contact, even shoulder to shoulder. Rashford is as weak physically as he is mentally. Garnacho and Sancho have the physical presence of underdeveloped teenagers. Martial is Martial. It’s incredible looking at them as a collective and seeing how easily dispossessed they all are, and how scared they are of physical contact. They make Berbatov and Nani look like brick shithouses.
This is the one thing you have to credit Jose for because he knew how to build a team that could physically dominate. Herrera, Pogba, Matic, Smalling, Ibrah, Fellaini, Lukaku. I don’t think it’s a coincidence this was the last time we hit the 80 point barrier and felt like we dominated with and without the ball in most games of the season.
Martinez and Casemiro are aggressive but not much physical presence. Bruno’s work rate and distance covered says nothing about how weak he is, bouncing off of players most of the time. Mount is exactly the same as Bruno off the ball. Lacks the physicality to actually be effective with the running.
Front 3 are the worst though. Antony is a coward and scared of any physical contact, even shoulder to shoulder. Rashford is as weak physically as he is mentally. Garnacho and Sancho have the physical presence of underdeveloped teenagers. Martial is Martial. It’s incredible looking at them as a collective and seeing how easily dispossessed they all are, and how scared they are of physical contact. They make Berbatov and Nani look like brick shithouses.
This is the one thing you have to credit Jose for because he knew how to build a team that could physically dominate. Herrera, Pogba, Matic, Smalling, Ibrah, Fellaini, Lukaku. I don’t think it’s a coincidence this was the last time we hit the 80 point barrier and felt like we dominated with and without the ball in most games of the season.
No, I wouldn't say we're the worst in the league for it. That's hyperbole at its best. There will be significantly worse teams in every department than Man United, that is absolutely guaranteed. It's easy to make your own clubs problems seem gigantic and think that other clubs don't have them because you don't have to see the rubbish they're putting out week to week.
But is it somewhat of a problem? Of course, I think it manifests in a few different ways.
The midfield is the obvious one, we have got Casemiro who is like this crown jewel at DM that we have zero adequate cover for. His own legs are aging and we're not helping that situation by exposing him in games structually, and also within the squad composition where he can't really get a rest without us being weakened unacceptably. Then we have two 10s ahead of him, or at least thats the current plan, both of which are fairly small players with a limited background in providing defensive cover and competitive duels. Or Eriksen, who we know what his profile is and it's nothing to do with energy, strength, box to box legs.
Another problem is the strike force. Anthony Martial and Rashford are not the hardest workers, this is a well documented thing. Antony has a good engine but isn't the most physical and Sancho is extremely passive. I think Hojlund will help because he's a real worker and physical presence from the front. But this is not a collection of physical beasts and I think this is why we're really struggling with the consistency of our press. Sometimes it is okay and sometimes it is half hearted and I think that comes down to the personality and physicality of this lot.
At the back I can't identify that we're struggling physically compared to anyone else. We have competitive players, pacey players, strong players. At least in the best XI.
But is it somewhat of a problem? Of course, I think it manifests in a few different ways.
The midfield is the obvious one, we have got Casemiro who is like this crown jewel at DM that we have zero adequate cover for. His own legs are aging and we're not helping that situation by exposing him in games structually, and also within the squad composition where he can't really get a rest without us being weakened unacceptably. Then we have two 10s ahead of him, or at least thats the current plan, both of which are fairly small players with a limited background in providing defensive cover and competitive duels. Or Eriksen, who we know what his profile is and it's nothing to do with energy, strength, box to box legs.
Another problem is the strike force. Anthony Martial and Rashford are not the hardest workers, this is a well documented thing. Antony has a good engine but isn't the most physical and Sancho is extremely passive. I think Hojlund will help because he's a real worker and physical presence from the front. But this is not a collection of physical beasts and I think this is why we're really struggling with the consistency of our press. Sometimes it is okay and sometimes it is half hearted and I think that comes down to the personality and physicality of this lot.
At the back I can't identify that we're struggling physically compared to anyone else. We have competitive players, pacey players, strong players. At least in the best XI.
That post invincibles era was really ridiculous for Arsenal. There was so much delusion, year after year, that everything would click and they would finally mature into a title winning team when it was clear as day it would never happen. They were obviously paying for the stadium back then but the project was a failure in terms of trophies won and the best players just jumped ship for better teams.
The comparison is interesting as i do wonder how we're going to make the next steps to be at the level City are at. United fans are probably a bit more pessimistic than the hype surrounding Arsenal back then . It still just seems so far away even when we have good seasons like last year.
And yet our best player the season we hit 80 points was De Gea and the underlying metrics had us as the 6th best team in the league.
We didn't dominate much with our physicality that season and there were plenty of threads on here lamenting how unfit we looked compared to other teams.
Seems like revisionism on what actually happened.
This is my concern also.
Amigos, when Rashford or Martial starts at CF we're playing with 10 men. Once Hojlund recovers from his broken back and can participate in matchday activities we'll at least be at a full complement of 11 players. Then and only then we can we assess what we've got.
Dear God this happens so often when the ball goes out wide and one of our fullbacks or wide players JUST TAKE 100 YEARS TO CLOSE DOWN THE ACRES OF VACANT SPACE of the attacking player. This happened with one of the goals against Spurs. Martinez took ages to close down the attacker which allowed him free reign, unapposed, into our penalty area. Its only when the Spurs player was within 10 feet of our goalkeeper and on the byline when Martinez was able to put in a boot or attempt to block the passing lane.
It pisses me off to no end and I can almost smash my TV out of frustration. Why the feck does this happen so much. Dalot was also guilty of this recently. Letting the attacker runn into the box before closing down the space.
These people are being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week and can't understand how this is allowed every single time. Why allow anyone to get the ball into your penalty area before you attempt a tackle.
Fecking jogging back to close down the space. Only starts sprinting when the Spurs player is less than 2 feet away from the byline. A complete joke this happens every fecking time. You can almost smell a goal coming in these situations.
Yes, this is completely true. We need three physical players, one of them CM, another striker, and probably a central defender.
Our front and midfield players lack of physical & athletic overall.
I have to agree, this sure has seemed the case early this season. But mainly it seems the lack of urgency and 'hustle' has been disappointing. I thnik ETH will fix this, but need a little bit deeper squad.
There's plenty. Martinez, AWB, Caremiro and McTominay are the first four I'd want beside me.
I think the problem is that we've had a crappy pre-season again, and are starting off the pace. I'd love to see a manager having the balls to stand up to the money making machine and refusing to go on tour next season. We should have a pre-season at Carrington working on fitness and tactics, not flying the players around the world and making them do commercial appearances.
This is the exact issue. Players don't have to be 200 pound behemoths to push people off the ball or win challenges. They just have to be willing to do it. Look at Keane, I wouldn't say he was a big guy but you can bet he was a physical player. It's all a mental thing with our players, which Ten Hag has alluded to many times with his comments about bravery, intensity, etc
Casemiro getting exposed isn't a system issue. In my opinion, its the player's not playing to the system. One, Casemiro gets forward too often, but also our fullbacks haven't been pushing into the midfield enough to create that solidity. The last couple of games Luke Shaw has played he's played too deep as almost a 3rd centerback whereas he needs to come into the midfield for numbers. You could see Dalot doing that more effectively against Forrest. Another major issue so far has been the forward players not pressing high enough or with enough intensity. There was a moment against Forrest where Antony was pressing the keeper and left centreback in the middle whilst Martial moved out to the right to cover their left back. Bruno, Eriksen, and Rashford didn't press high enough (particularly Bruno and Eriksen in this instance) so the keeper was able to play the ball to the left centreback who played to the right centreback who then played the ball straight through the midfield.
Had our two 10's closed down the centrebacks like they are supposed to the keeper can only go long which should cause a turnover, especially if the keeper is getting pressed like he was. The whole system is about pressing high up the pitch in numbers, if you fail at that then your going to be exposed. But it's not a system fault it's a player fault.
Shaw had to move to side because the opponent had put a player on the wing high up.
I think our CBs are limited to push to the midfield. It can only be addressed by adding new CB with the required attributes.
I’m not sure mate.
I’d hope that ETH does understand the PL by now. I think our problems are more to do with us having a large group of brain dead/stubborn players.
We do seem to have a huge mentality issue throughout the squad.
Take Rashford for instance. He gets asked to play CF against Spurs and sulks like a baby. Compare that to Rooney (a calibre of player Rashford could only dream of becoming). He’d gladly play at RB and still give 200% effort for the team.
I really want to see these players willing to (figuratively) die for the team on that pitch.
It's a man's game
This is exactly right. Look at Roy Keane. He was about 5ft10’ and quite slight framed. Yet he was never physically dominated in midfield. He’d go toe to toe with 6ft ‘4 Viera every step of the way.
His pure desire to win made him a formidable opponent. Who in our squad has that same mentality? I can’t think of anyone.
I think we most miss a very physical forward. It makes us easy to play against for defences. Especially when our wide players arent exactly physical beasts. I'd dispute that martinez is weak in the air though, and casemiro has been very exposed lately but definitely still counts as a physical player. I'd like to see more of course, but I feel as if there's something wrong with application this season, moreso than just the personnel.
It's funny because the sacrifice for technical ability that usually comes to mind is athleticism. Somehow we sacrificed both.
I think our back 4 and Fernandes are physical enough. Fernandes is small but has an engine on him.
Casemiro is strong and good in the air but maybe lacking legs. Rasmus looks a big lad so hopefully adds something. Casemiro still needs a partner who is good on the ball and physically imposing.
Casemiro is strong and good in the air but maybe lacking legs. Rasmus looks a big lad so hopefully adds something. Casemiro still needs a partner who is good on the ball and physically imposing.
In that thread it was quickly established they are not the best set piece team FYI.
I think you can make a strong case for the core of the team being too slow last season (DDG/Martinez/Varane/Case/Eriksen/Bruno/Weggy is diabolically bad if you think about it in terms of raw pace, especially as Varane gets injured and Maguire/Lindelof come in) but we're not a 'meek' team when you think of a lot of the characters we have. Mount, Onana and Hojlund coming in should improve the overall pace of the team, assuming ETH can figure Mount out in the CMs - albeit I still want to see more pace at CB and CM.
There's probably a separate argument to ask why the club always makes our pre season terrible for actual footballing prep, I feel like last game was the first time we've looked even semi fit.
We had 6x 4 goal victories in the first 14 games. For comparison we had scored 4 goals once last season, on the last day. Only had 4x 3 goal wins as well.
Season really tailed off at the end when it seemed the energy ran out.
He’d be the one at the back desperately looking for a mate to “hold him back” whilst screaming if the opposition knows who he is…….
I don't think we lack physicality. I think that we get penalised for being physical more than other teams, so our players have become a bit shy.
We have almost no physical players except Casemiro and Martinez, and it's been a problem for a long time. Not that it's necessarily a problem in itself, as you can see with a team like Barcelona, but if we're going to go that way we need technical players, and we don't have that either. It really is surreal how we've gone so long without actually making progress at all. There have been so many players that have been available and obvious signings to make, but being without a DoF has seriously hurt us.
In Greek?
Our scouting seems to bypass many obvious signings until we see them playing for other PL teams.
Akanji, even Nunes at Wolves. They join city and that's when we see them worthy.
Paulinha is an example of a the profile we could use but we never seem to do the obvious thing, we pull signings like Mount from no where.
Our manager is also stubborn, after a year at the club he still sets up the team away from home the same as when we play at home.
Away from home you earn the right to play, we don't know how to dig in when things go wrong.
I won't be surprised if we get one or two hammering away from home this season
Finally the players need to take accountability, when you see players jogging back when we are been countered. Compared that to how other teams fight for every ball.
The manager cannot force players to run, he could bench them but who comes in then?
Akanji, even Nunes at Wolves. They join city and that's when we see them worthy.
Paulinha is an example of a the profile we could use but we never seem to do the obvious thing, we pull signings like Mount from no where.
Our manager is also stubborn, after a year at the club he still sets up the team away from home the same as when we play at home.
Away from home you earn the right to play, we don't know how to dig in when things go wrong.
I won't be surprised if we get one or two hammering away from home this season
Finally the players need to take accountability, when you see players jogging back when we are been countered. Compared that to how other teams fight for every ball.
The manager cannot force players to run, he could bench them but who comes in then?
If anyone cared watching Ten Hag's Ajax, they were poor physically, poor against the transition once the 1st press had been beaten, only got away with it because the opposition 9 times out of 10 were poor in the final 3rd.
His teams hate running back.
His teams hate running back.
I do think it's the team rather than ETH not knowing the secret code to the PL (which I think is just an example of pundits thinking the PL is special). It has seemed like the team didn't even have a preseason, they're so underprepared for the games.
Team feels about 85% fit and 80% coordinated vs Forest. I think we are getting to where we should be. Giving as many players the opportunities to play pre-season comes at a cost to the first 11 gelling, but hopefully will benefit us as the season goes on. United usually finish the season strong in the past.