Are we tackling our lack of leadership in the wrong way?

[devilish]

Time and time again, we hear about pundits speaking about United's lack of leadership. They are of course right. However I can't help thinking we're tackling this in the wrong way.

Most players aren't born as leaders. We are talking about relatively young men, they usually had poor/substandard level of education, they were probably raised in poor areas and their lives had suffered (or enjoyed?) a radical change since they signed that first professional contract. Most of our leaders had a flawed character. Gaz was described by Sir Alex as an argumentative man, Keane and Robson had their own demons to fight, Cantona was a nightmare to manage up until he joined United. What turned these players into leaders and captains was good management. Sir Alex took rough diamonds and turned them into priceless pieces of art.

Not to forget that you simply can't plug and play captains. The reason being that leadership is built with experience and trust between the leader and the rest of the team. That requires time to develop which means most proven leaders are at the wrong side of their career. There's no point bringing in a Chiellini just as there was no point bringing in Bastian.

So in my opinion we need to stop trying to bring in leaders and we should instead aim to bring in players with the right attitude to become leaders. That means bringing players that have integrity, that work hard for the team and that own their mistakes. Meanwhile we need to reintroduce accountability into the team. Players who simply aren't reaching the standards expected by them on a week in week out basis need to be sent on the bench and then kicked out. No more excuses or room for sentimentalism.

Honestly out of the lot, the player I think has the most potential to become a captain is James. The runner from the championship might not have the dribbling skills of Cristiano Ronaldo but he works so hard for the team and his can do attitude is simply infective. Maguire can be a decent captain at short term, same as AWB (he's a quiet lad but his consistency is to be applauded). If we can persuade the likes of Rice, Fraser and Neves to the club (all in the top 20 in respect of distance covered in the EPL last season) then we would have the basis to build a great side.

 

[Lee565]

McGinn is one that looks like he has that potential leadership quality and he is looking really good so far in the premier league, if we persue bloody Longstaff over this guy if he keeps up his form then club and scouting system is screwed up.

 

[Samrat Mazumdar]

We need a loud mouth, arrogant, tough defender/ central mid who can captain the side. Maguire can mature into the role once he spends a full season at least. Youngy wears the armband for now based on seniority just like the old government post office staff

 

[charlenefan]

Everything we do is the wrong way

 

[Judas]

I just want to bin off practically everyone and start again.

 

[romufc]

Although I agree about leaders but some players are natural leaders in that the way they carry themselves will gain respect from peers.

A leader can be either the best player - leading by example but generally works in a team that is doing well and has experienced players in the spine who are leaders. I.E Messi / Ronaldo

Another one is a natural leader - Commands respect, motivates people and is not afraid to stick it and piss other players off.

Harry Maguire seems to be the guy, doesnt matter if he has just come in, give him the captain's armband and tell him to lead.

 

[devilish]

We need a loud mouth, arrogant, tough defender/ central mid who can captain the side. Maguire can mature into the role once he spends a full season at least. Youngy wears the armband for now based on seniority just like the old government post office staff

Captains come in all shape and forms mate. The likes of Robson, Zanetti and Maldini took a very different approach to lets say Roy Keane.

 

[kafta]

I don't think we need a leader as much as we need players who are actually talented enough to play for this club and a manager who knows how to line them up.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Yes but first we need players willing to take criticism. Feels like we're becoming too much about niceness which is making the players soft.

Said it in another thread but for me this is why Pep is so, so good. He really demands more from his squad and they know if they aren't good enough then they'll be replaced.

We are so far from that it's unreal. We actually reward mediocrity (contracts, etc).

 

[devilish]

Although I agree about leaders but some players are natural leaders in that the way they carry themselves will gain respect from peers.

A leader can be either the best player - leading by example but generally works in a team that is doing well and has experienced players in the spine who are leaders. I.E Messi / Ronaldo

Another one is a natural leader - Commands respect, motivates people and is not afraid to stick it and piss other players off.

Harry Maguire seems to be the guy, doesnt matter if he has just come in, give him the captain's armband and tell him to lead.

Captains come in all shapes and forms. Zanetti was a different captain to Roy Keane whom in turn was a different captain to someone like lets say Cantona. The former allowed his work ethic, his humility and his gentle nature do the talking. Keane would scare the shit out of a player while Cantona 'Ibranesque' type of charisma and brilliance would reassure the team that everything would be ok just because he's there with them.

Also people change in time, most of the time to the better IF properly managed. Keane was a relatively quiet lad who refused to send his CV to United because he felt he was not good enough for us. Cantona on the other hand was an enfant terrible who had arguments with everything that moved from referees to team mates right to managers. Put a young Cantona in the same room with lets say a Keane and there was a chance of a blood shed.

 

[devilish]

Yes but first we need players willing to take criticism. Feels like we're becoming too much about niceness which is making the players soft.

Said it in another thread but for me this is why Pep is so, so good. He really demands more from his squad and they know if they aren't good enough then they'll be replaced.

We are so far from that it's unreal. We actually reward mediocrity (contracts, etc).

That's our big mistake. Players are allowed to evaluate criticism and decide if they will take it or not. At top clubs, an underperforming player would be too busy worrying that he might end up playing with West Ham, Atalanta, Bochum or Alaves in few months time to afford taking criticism at heart.

 

[Vidyoyo]

That's our big mistake. Players are allowed to evaluate criticism and decide if they will take it or not. At top clubs, an underperforming player would be too busy worrying that he might end up playing with West Ham, Atalanta, Bochum or Alaves in few months time to afford taking criticism at heart.

It's strange because that's always what I imagined being a professional sportsman was about - knowing that you'll be out on your arse if you don't perform to the best of your ability

I had a thought recently that we've become a lot like England of old. Always seemed that certain players became untouchable to their system which impacted performance at the top level. I'm not an expert in management (business or otherwise) but I'm sure it can't be too helpful for creating a winning mentality.

Honestly, one of the best things Southgate has done is ensure the squad is about rotation meaning nobody can settle (edit: rest on their laurels).

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Yes but first we need players willing to take criticism. Feels like we're becoming too much about niceness which is making the players soft.

Said it in another thread but for me this is why Pep is so, so good. He really demands more from his squad and they know if they aren't good enough then they'll be replaced.

We are so far from that it's unreal. We actually reward mediocr(contracts, etc).

Pep never seems to say much negative but once he identifies a weak link, no nonsense upgraded. He has a board with the money to do that. I'm not expecting our board with its debt to spend like City. But I also do not tolerate our club EXTENDING CONTRACTS for weak links instead of upgrading

 

[romufc]

Captains come in all shapes and forms. Zanetti was a different captain to Roy Keane whom in turn was a different captain to someone like lets say Cantona. The former allowed his work ethic, his humility and his gentle nature do the talking. Keane would scare the shit out of a player while Cantona 'Ibranesque' type of charisma and brilliance would reassure the team that everything would be ok just because he's there with them.

Also people change in time, most of the time to the better IF properly managed. Keane was a relatively quiet lad who refused to send his CV to United because he felt he was not good enough for us. Cantona on the other hand was an enfant terrible who had arguments with everything that moved from referees to team mates right to managers. Put a young Cantona in the same room with lets say a Keane and there was a chance of a blood shed.

Yes, but we have neither in the dressing room. We are not going to have the quality of cantona in our state.

We need someone who will not be scared to tell Pogba to sort it out, or call Rashford out on his performances or call people out for not tracking.

 

[devilish]

Yes, but we have neither in the dressing room. We are not going to have the quality of cantona in our state.

We need someone who will not be scared to tell Pogba to sort it out, or call Rashford out on his performances or call people out for not tracking.

When Pogba moved to Juventus I thought that the guy was nuts. You had a very inexperienced kid here competing with the likes of Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio at a club whose most probably one of the most ruthless in the world. Guess what? Pogba not only stepped up but at one point he pushed Marchisio on the bench. The latter was a top top player, future Juventus captain material and yet, this kid, was able to put him on the bench.

I know that what I am saying is a bit clique but most top players need to be surrounded by other top players to shine. Its not just about giving these players the technical platform needed for them to shine but its also about keeping players on their toes. Take your example as an example. Who would dare telling Pogba to sort it out when 99% of all creativity comes from him especially if Pogba happens to play in a team filled with has beens (Mata, Matic etc),glorified squad players (Rashford, Jesse, Young etc) and players who are there to steal a living (ex Jones)

The solution to that problem is to have high standards. High standards can only be kept if you've got a high turnover. High turnover can only be maintained by clubs who are ambitious and their board has a good idea about football. Take Sir Alex for example. Between 1988 and 1999 (2 years) Sir Alex signed 11 players. That was at a time when squads were around 16 players strong.

 

[devilish]

It's strange because that's always what I imagined being a professional sportsman was about - knowing that you'll be out on your arse if you don't perform to the best of your ability

I had a thought recently that we've become a lot like England of old. Always seemed that certain players became untouchable to their system which impacted performance at the top level. I'm not an expert in management (business or otherwise) but I'm sure it can't be too helpful for creating a winning mentality.

Honestly, one of the best things Southgate has done is ensure the squad is about rotation meaning nobody can settle (edit: rest on their laurels).

Players are untouchable because they know that the club can't get rid of them. Take this season as an example. Despite all the talk about survival of the fittest and rebuilding we were only able to sign 3 players one of which from the championship (ie a relatively easy signing). At this pace the deadwood would stick to the club until they retire.Such lack of movement meant that the club was FORCED to give the likes of Jones and Mata long term contracts.

 

[romufc]

When Pogba moved to Juventus I thought that the guy was nuts. You had a very inexperienced kid here competing with the likes of Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio at a club whose most probably one of the most ruthless in the world. Guess what? Pogba not only stepped up but at one point he pushed Marchisio on the bench. The latter was a top top player, future Juventus captain material and yet, this kid, was able to put him on the bench.

I know that what I am saying is a bit clique but most top players need to be surrounded by other top players to shine. Its not just about giving these players the technical platform needed for them to shine but its also about keeping players on their toes. Take your example as an example. Who would dare telling Pogba to sort it out when 99% of all creativity comes from him especially if Pogba happens to play in a team filled with has beens (Mata, Matic etc),glorified squad players (Rashford, Jesse, Young etc) and players who are there to steal a living (ex Jones)

The solution to that problem is to have high standards. High standards can only be kept if you've got a high turnover. High turnover can only be maintained by clubs who are ambitious and their board has a good idea about football. Take Sir Alex for example. Between 1988 and 1999 (2 years) Sir Alex signed 11 players. That was at a time when squads were around 16 players strong.

Oh yeah agreed and tbh it seems Ole doesn't even have the guts to tell Pogba off. Take the penaltygate incident where he is hiding behind we have 2 penalty takers. If as the manager you cannot tell your players off then there is a big leadership problem.

What high standard player will come to United in this state, I do not think Ole is a manager who can deal with these players. Do you?

 

[AllezLesDiables]

As much people do not like to hear this. Leadership is an inate talent. We are all born with a range of leadership talent which has a baseline and can be honed to a certain degree. However, absent the innate leadership qualities you cannot lack these qualities and work harder to become a leader.

Some of these qualities can lay dormant and require certain triggering events to force the individual to adapt and enact the dormant qualities. However, you cannot go beyond your native limitations.

It’s the same with physical limitations. I will never be able to dunk from the free throw line or shoot three pointers at a reasonable rate because my spectrum of athletic ability prevents that.

 

[devilish]

Oh yeah agreed and tbh it seems Ole doesn't even have the guts to tell Pogba off. Take the penaltygate incident where he is hiding behind we have 2 penalty takers. If as the manager you cannot tell your players off then there is a big leadership problem.

What high standard player will come to United in this state, I do not think Ole is a manager who can deal with these players. Do you?

I think we've got way bigger problems then Pogba.

 

[romufc]

I think we've got way bigger problems then Pogba.

I agree we got bigger problems but they are not getting solved this season and with Pogba in the MF some cracks get covered. I would rather go finish 4th by Pogba covering cracks and we know we have an issue than to finish 6th.

 

[Sky1981]

You cant bring in leaders. Leaders has to be accepted from within. Few had that traits.

If magically we have a prime keane transferred to our squad he wont be the keane of saf yesteryears. He'll be exiled out like sanchez for trying to demand changes to the status quo.

Maguire can be a hell of a captain for leicester, doesnt mean jlings and co will accept his authority at united.

Few could walk in and demand respect and not intimidated by our squad, zlatan is a prime example. His ego is big enough to slap lingard metaphorically.

 

[Vidyoyo]

You cant bring in leaders. Leaders has to be accepted from within. Few had that traits.

If magically we have a prime keane transferred to our squad he wont be the keane of saf yesteryears. He'll be exiled out like sanchez for trying to demand changes to the status quo.

Maguire can be a hell of a captain for leicester, doesnt mean jlings and co will accept his authority at united.

Few could walk in and demand respect and not intimidated by our squad, zlatan is a prime example. His ego is big enough to slap lingard metaphorically.

It's a bit of hear say but that's bloody depressing if it is true. Lingard should have zero authority given how shit he is.

 

[Sky1981]

It's a bit of hear say but that's bloody depressing if it is true. Lingard should have zero authority given how shit he is.

Tough luck. He's the old boys and the gangs.

Nobody messes with keane because they knew fergie was with him. Look at our players strutting around, making videos and all that. It may not be our business what they do outside of the pitch but it kinda shows your character. I dont follow city but i dont think their players are being a knob in the social media

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Why don't we just pick a few players and send them off for professional development programs where they can develop leadership skills?

 

[Vidyoyo]

Tough luck. He's the old boys and the gangs.

Nobody messes with keane because they knew fergie was with him. Look at our players strutting around, making videos and all that. It may not be our business what they do outside of the pitch but it kinda shows your character. I dont follow city but i dont think their players are being a knob in the social media

To be fair the Bernando Silva thing is definitely one. Only time I've seen/heard anything bad from City's end though.

 

[Valuedrug]

I think there is something to what you’re saying, but I don’t think the current environment at United is conducive to creating leaders at all. You need a stabile structure with believable role models bringing out the leadership qualities in people like Maguire. He isn’t going to simply walk in from Leicester to what appears to be a fragmented and mentally fragile group of players, and lift them on his own.

There are a lot of things factoring in to this, but without someone at the top who is respected (and feared to some extent), I don’t see consistent leadership emerging from within the squad.

The way I see it, it’s been a long time since United have had any squad leaders, who were also good enough to be starting for a top side. Rooney, Valencia, Carrick, Young. As captains they’ve all been largely past it, and only been on the pitch because their managers were trying to leverage their seniority and former glories as a way to keep the rest of the team motivated and in check. Long term planning in terms of squad renewal - particularly with regards to leadership - was thoroughly neglected leading up to Ferguson’s farewell. Surely no one in their right mind would really have counted on Chris Smalling for that.

So now we need to restart the process, and it begins with the manager. Does Ole have the force of personality to do this?

Personally, I just don’t see it. Put aside his football acumen for a while, even though it’s quite an important component to being respected, and just look at his personality as we’re exposed to it through the press. Does he seem like a character to command much respect? This little guy, with his awkward smile, forced jokes and constant nostalgia? Taking the squad to the Cliff, bowing and scraping before Fergie at every opportunity.

Would you follow this person into war, and champion his vision in his absence? Does he even have a discernible vision for you to support?

 

[Bestietom]

We need a few leaders in the team but the captain should be an out and out leader, and we haven't had one for a long time. Young is not captain material.

 

[Lentwood]

Saying 'there are no leaders' is usually lazy pundit speak

Usually, the first problems are lack of quality followed by lack of confidence.

 

[romufc]

We need a few leaders in the team but the captain should be an out and out leader, and we haven't had one for a long time. Young is not captain material.

We lack leadership from the top down. You can tell Ole wants to be the nice guy he is not a leader. He is too scared to upset the squad by giving someone the armband.

He is also scared of upsetting Pogba, I get this from the penaltygate where he said we have two penalty takers and they decide, that is someone who cannot make decisions and upset someone.

When the manager hasn't got the guts, the team will not respect him and we will continue to see poor results.

 

[VivaObertan]

Our biggest problem is a lack of quality borne out of poor management within the business, that's where we need to make changes to leadership.

 

[davidmichael]

The person who personifies a leader and captain in our squad is also our newest signing and people were against Maguire coming in and being given the captaincy straight away, personally I’d have given it to him over anyone in our squad.

In reality though how many genuine old school captains or leaders are there that lead by example or take control of a game in today’s game ? I can think of Messi, Ronaldo, Ramos, Chiellini, Kompany, Bonucci, Thiago Silva, Romagnoli and Van Dijk off the top of my head but the days of captains like Robson, Keane, Gerrard, Terry, Puyol, Maldini, Baresi, De Boer, Blind, Matthaus and Sammer seem long gone.

 

[VeevaVee]

Some people do just have the right attitude and charisma for leadership and are naturally respected/followed.
Experience helps a lot though, as most people wouldn’t have that respect if they’re inexperienced.

 

[noodlehair]

It's not even leadership any more it's just basic motivation to get hold of a game. A few leaders who are also winners would help but you don't necessarily need that. You just needs everyone on the same page when they step onto the pitch. You can do that without a Roy Keane.