Are we too reliant on Zlatan?

[the hea]

Zlatan has been very good for us this season barring some very disappointing games like the one today and overall he has probably been our best player this season. But are we too reliant on him to score our goals like we became with Ruud back in the day?

All the other top teams have multiple players who can bail them out when their main man is having an off day but to me it seems we are lacking those players. Mata, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Rashford and Pogba where the players I expected to do this job before the season started but for several different reasons only Mata has been able to produce an acceptable goal tally so far from those players.

If you look at the statistics it's clear to me that we rely to much on Zlatan for our goals and we need someone besides him who can score an decent amount of goals during a season if we want to be a major force in the league again. Either some of our players step up or we need to replace some of them with someone who can do that job.

Players with 5 or more league goals from every team

Liverpool 5 players
Mane 12 goals
Firmino 9 goals
Lallana 7 goals
Coutinho 6 goals
Milner 6 goals

Chelsea 4 players
Costa 16 goals
Hazard 10 goals
Pedro 7 goals
Willian 5 goals

Tottenham 4 players
Kane 17 goals
Alli 12 goals
Son 7 goals
Eriksen 5 goals

Arsenal 4 players
Sanchez 17 goals
Giroud 8 goals
Walcott 8 goals
Özil 5 goals

West Brom 4 players
Rondon 7 goals
McAuley 6 goals
Chadli 5 goals
Morrison 5 goals

Crystal Palace 3 players
Benteke 9 goals
McArthur 5 goals
Zaha 5 goals

West Ham 3 players
Antonio 8 goals
Carroll 6 goals
Lanzini 5 goals

Swansea 3 player
Llorente 11 goals
Sigurdsson 8 goals
Fer 6 goals

Manchester United 2 players
Ibrahimovic 15 goals
Mata 6 goals

Manchester City 2 players
Aguero 11 goals
Sterling 6 goals

Southampton 2 players
Austin 6 goals
Redmond 5 goals

Leicester 2 players
Vardy 7 goals
Slimani 5 goals

Stoke 2 players
Allen 6 goals
Arnautovic5 goals

Burnley 2 players
Gray 8 goals
Vokes 5 goals

Bournemouth 2 players
King 8 goals
Wilson 6 goals

Watford 2 players
Deeney 8 goals
Capoue 5 goals

Everton 1 player
Lukaku 17 goals

Sunderland 1 player
Defoe 14 goals

Middlesbrough 1 player
Negredo 6 goals

Hull 1 player
Snodgrass 7 goals

 

[jackofalltrades]

Yes we are, but also his strengths sometimes lead to the type of game we play - long balls. I suppose everyone was caught out by both Martial's and Rashford's lack of goals after last season's successes. It's possible even Welbeck will overtake Rashford this season !!

 

[AXVnee7]

Rashford and Martial are youngsters and will be inconsistent. Mkhi has been fantastic when played but can't seem to catch a break with injuries.

Pogba just needs to step it up in general. Signing Grizemann would go a long way imo.

 

[Man-United]

We have been that all season. When he's having a poor day we are shit. Pogba must step up if he's banned for 3 games.

 

[Seanus]

Have posted my theory in a couple of other threads but perhaps Zlatan's ban (if it happens) will force Pogba to vary his game more-the Hollywood ball to Zlatan is amazing when it comes off but with no Zlatan perhaps he will hit Rashford and Martial with the same balls and then we might see the pace these 2 have bring dividends in terms of goals-here's hoping anyway!

 

[BlueCelery]

No one on this forum would take Mkhitaryan, Martial & Mata over Pedro, Willian & Hazard so I disagree.

 

[Seanus]

Mkhi over Pedro for me without doubt.

 

[Raw]

We are. I think Defoe for Sunderland is the only player in the league to have scored a higher percentage of goals for their team than Zlatan.

It's not like he's doing everything by himself, the rest of our players miss a shit load of chances too.

 

[MadMike]

The problem is, we don't substitute him at all. So when he's having a stinker, we don't give anyone else the chance to have a go. Then we shout "too dependent on Zlatan!".

If he's having a bad day, take him off like any other player and try something else up front , like Martial + Rashford. Zlatan lost his head in the first half after the missed chances and the stamp/elbow incidents. How many of us were yelling for him to be subbed off at half time?

 

[wr8_utd]

His misses vs Burnley, Stoke and tonight. A little more composure and we'd be in a super position.

 

[mav_9me]

For all his goals I've felt that his general play hasn't always been as good.

 

[settembrini]

Mourinho obviously thinks we are. However nobody else has really been given a chance upfront so it's difficult to say.

 

[MadMike]

Mourinho obviously thinks we are. However nobody else has really been given a chance upfront so it's difficult to say.

Bingo.

We have scored 6 more goals than this time last year, while we have added Zlatan, Mkhi and Pogba to our team. In other words the difference Zlatan has made to our goal ratio is not that massive compared to last year when Martial and Rashford got more games up top. They should be viable striking options yet they are not, we keep playing Ibra however bad he's doing.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Part of the problem is that Mou's big sell was bringing Ibra, and Ibra's big sell was playing for Mou, which makes it difficult for Mou to substitute him. Plus, we have tried other combinations but quite simply no one has been finishing better than Ibra.

 

[finneh]

I think this style of play always relies on the main striker scoring the majority of the goals. When said player has a bad game we tend to drop points.

I'd say last year we were too reliant on Martial. Our tactics were to give him the ball and pray he beats a few defenders and score. No one is asking Zlatan to do magical things. We're asking him to put the ball in the net when he has a great chance.

I don't see providing 2-3 clear cut chances every single game to your main striker to be being too reliant. The job of players around him is to create lots of chances for him and that's what's happening. Pogba won a penalty for him today, Martial gave him a tap in. We also created one or two other good chances.

In general then: No. Although I prefer a more diverse formation that has a more equitable split where chances to through 2 or 3 attackers.

 

[MadMike]

Part of the problem is that Mou's big sell was bringing Ibra, and Ibra's big sell was playing for Mou, which makes it difficult for Mou to substitute him. Plus, we have tried other combinations but quite simply no one has been finishing better than Ibra.

When did that happen and I missed it? He's played full 90 in 25 of our 26 games in the league. Missed only one through cards suspension.

Don't tell me about the cups when we played a generally weakened team (not only the strikers). Martial last year played up top and did well. There are other alternatives to Zlatan if he's having a shite day like today. Like putting Martial and/or Rash up front.

Yet Mou doesn't even consider those options when Zlatan is on the pitch. Everybody else will be shifted to the wings, or drop deeper, so he can play centrally alone.

 

[VeevaVee]

I'm always against 'one man team' remarks we've had in the past about Rooney and Ronaldo, and obviously we aren't at the level we were then, but we are more reliant on one guy than ever before.

Lack of consistent contribution from our other two attackers, and not enough from midfield.
I feel like our wingers should be regularly cropping up in striker positions too, zipping from there back to the wing. Doesn't happen very often though.
It's all very laboured on the wings, the left especially.

 

[jackofalltrades]

When did that happen and I missed it? He's played full 90 in 25 of our 26 games in the league. Missed only one through cards suspension.

Don't tell me about the cups when we played a generally weakened team (not only the strikers). Martial last year played up top and did well. There are other alternatives to Zlatan if he's having a shite day like today. Like putting Martial and/or Rash up front. Yet Mou doesn't even consider them when Zlatan is on the pitch.

Yes in the cups, and he's had to brought on to liven up the attack, and as you say through suspension. The point still stands, neither Rashford nor Martial have been up to the mark this season, ( assuming you mean last season ) much less consistently so, when given their chances, or at least not good enough to say they can or must replace him. Rashford has well over thirty appearances to his name and Martial 27, that's enough to show how well you're playing, in my view. And Ibra has more assists to his name as well.

 

[sullydnl]

*too

 

[Moonwalker]

Are homophones too challenging for Caf posters?

 

[the hea]

If we are too reliant on him it brings up another question. Do we rely to much on him because the other offensive players are not contributing enough goals or is our play to much centered around creating chances for Zlatan?

If he gets a suspension for the elbow we will probably get a chance of answering that question. Unless of course Mourinho just plays Rooney up top for those games and we can blame it all on him.

 

[the hea]

*too

Are homophones too challenging for Caf posters?

Cheers for pointing out my mistake. English is my third language so I appreciate every advice so I can better myself.

 

[MadMike]

Yes in the cups, and he's had to brought on to liven up the attack, and as you say through suspension. The point still stands, neither Rashford nor Martial have been up to the mark this season, ( assuming you mean last season ) much less consistently so, when given their chances, or at least not good enough to say they can or must replace him. Rashford has well over thirty appearances to his name and Martial 27, that's enough to show how well you're playing, in my view. And Ibra has more assists to his name as well.

That makes no sense to me sorry. How can you use 3-4 sporadic cup games where alternative line ups were used as adequate sample. That point doesn't not stand at all for me.

 

[jackofalltrades]

That makes no sense to me sorry. How can you use 3-4 sporadic cup games where alternative line ups were used as adequate sample. That point doesn't not stand at all for me.

What about the appearances I mentioned - over thirty/27 ? That's not the occasional game. Plus the stats, more goals and assists than either ?

 

[led_scholes]

I think we should have bought someone like Liorente back in January. He would be a good Zlatan's backup for one year. We miss a player like Chicarito. Someone to lead the line a few times but also to use as a sub. With Lliorente we would never had the need to bring fellaini in.

 

[Raoul]

His misses vs Burnley, Stoke and tonight. A little more composure and we'd be in a super position.

How about the 15 or so times we hit the woodwork. If two or three of them went in we'd be in 2nd.

 

[POF]

The team just lacks players who are good at scoring goals. It was telling in the second half when Zlatan dropped deep, Rashford was wide right, Martial wide left and there was nobody up front. At home vs Bournemouth who had 10 men.

How often does a wide player get in behind, cut the ball back and there are only one or two United players in the box. Or from corners, the ball lands middle of goal 10 yards out and 3 defenders battle each other to head it clear while 4 United players stand beyond the far post.

The team lacks balance. Nobody to control things in midfield, too many creative players and not enough finishers.

 

[CM]

Yes. Most of the games he hasn't scored in are the ones where we've dropped points.

He's not the only one though, I think we're also too reliant on players like Herrera and Mkhitaryan at the moment.

 

[MadMike]

What about the appearances I mentioned - over thirty/27 ? That's not the occasional game. Plus the stats, more goals and assists than either ?

What are you talking about man? How many of Rashford's appearances have been as a striker? Have any?

Mou has not played them up front bar the few cup games.That's what I'm saying. How can you say they won't be good upfront, when they have not played up front!

 

[montpelier]

yes I think we are

physique & personality too dominant at times,affects the way we play, too much focus on Zlatan

probably gonna see how we get on without him, so that'll be interesting

 

[sunama]

When Ibra has a bad game, MUFC have a bad game.
When Ibra has a good game, MUFC have a good game.
Are we a one man team - yes.

When Ibra is mis-firing it is up to our other attackers to step up to the plate. Throughout the season, our other attackers simply have not stepped upto the plate.
If Ibra gets a 3 match suspension (which would be disastrous), then it will be interesting to see if any of our other attackers step up.

 

[sunama]

physique & personality too dominant at times,affects the way we play, too much focus on Zlatan

So you are complaining that our main striker has too good a physique and too strong a personality?

 

[MadMike]

When Ibra has a bad game, MUFC have a bad game.
When Ibra has a good game, MUFC have a good game.
Are we a one man team - yes.

When Ibra is mis-firing it is up to our other attackers to step up to the plate. Throughout the season, our other attackers simply have not stepped upto the plate.
If Ibra gets a 3 match suspension (which would be disastrous), then it will be interesting to see if any of our other attackers step up.

Our other attackers are playing on the wings as supply line for Ibra. Martial played him through on the six yard box, Rooney played him through on the penalty box, Pogba got a penalty for him.

When you play with one striker and try to play everything through him (he took free kicks and the pen too) when he's not having a good game, then you're gonna struggle. It's not rocket science.

 

[jackofalltrades]

What are you talking about man? How many of Rashford's appearances have been as a striker? Have any?

Mou has not played them up front bar the few cup games.That's what I'm saying. How can you say they won't be good upfront, when they have not played up front!

But it's not just the goal stats. The times Martial has played very well for 90 minutes are few, he's certainly put in some good periods of play in games but just with too little consistency no matter the opposition, he tends to disappear for long periods. And Rashford has been poor overall in front of goal. Neither has been able to hold a place down in the team - in the centre or out wide. Why is that ?

Rashford has been given the odd chance in the centre and if I remember correctly, most posters said he was not up to taking on the role of leading the attack. It doesn't matter how old he is in the sense that we need performances now, he has to be given games leading the attack because he can do the job when we need him to do it, not because of his potential.

So I'm basing my view on what I've seen and the stats to back it up.

By the way, I'm not an uncritical supporter of Ibra, I just think no one's earned the right to keep him out of the striker's role in the team.

 

[montpelier]

So you are complaining that our main striker has too good a physique and too strong a personality?

suppose so yes, if it's dictating the style of play too much

making us a one trick pony of a team maybe

 

[MadMike]

But it's not just the goal stats. The times Martial has played very well for 90 minutes are few, he's certainly put in some good periods of play in games but just with too little consistency no matter the opposition, he tends to disappear for long periods. And Rashford has been poor overall in front of goal. Neither has been able to hold a place down in the team - in the centre or out wide. Why is that ?

Rashford has been given the odd chance in the centre and if I remember correctly, most posters said he was not up to taking on the role of leading the attack. It doesn't matter how old he is in the sense that we need performances now, he has to be given games leading the attack because he can do the job when we need him to do it, not because of his potential.

So I'm basing my view on what I've seen and the stats to back it up.

For the nth time, Rashford and Martial have barely played centrally this year. We re not talking about them taking over from Ibra permanently, we are talking about them playing upftont when Ibra is having a stinker. I've explained how we barely have more goals this season then last when we played Martial upfront, but you won't accept it as argument because "it was last season", when he simply hasn't played up top this season.

This discussion is getting us nowhere, let's drop this.

 

[RedMaestro]

The problem is, we don't substitute him at all. So when he's having a stinker, we don't give anyone else the chance to have a go. Then we shout "too dependent on Zlatan!".

If he's having a bad day, take him off like any other player and try something else up front , like Martial + Rashford. Zlatan lost his head in the first half after the missed chances and the stamp/elbow incidents. How many of us were yelling for him to be subbed off at half time?

To be hones, in the last minutes against Bournemouth he headed to Pogba twice (?) but Paul missed both chances. So this is the reason Mourinho keeps him the entire game - he offers a lot even when he's not scoring. I also remember reading somewhere that he's scored most of his goals after the 70th minute or something like that...

The main issue is the other's players lack of goalscoring. If they'll start pitching in regularly then no one will care if Ibra scores or not (no one will care if he has on off day like the one against Bournemouth).

 

[MadMike]

To be hones, in the last minutes against Bournemouth he headed to Pogba twice (?) but Paul missed both chances. So this is the reason Mourinho keeps him the entire game - he offers a lot even when he's not scoring. I also remember reading somewhere that he's scored most of his goals after the 70th minute or something like that...

The main issue is the other's players lack of goalscoring. If they'll start pitching in regularly then no one will care if Ibra scores or not (no one will care if he has on off day like the one against Bournemouth).

I fully agree that the other players need to chip in with more goals. That is indeed the main issue on most days. But today, Ibra was at the receiving end of everything good we did. He got played through twice, he took the free kicks, he took the pen. Pogba was the only other one who also had chances and I think he's also getting a LOT of criticism tonight.

As for the headers, they were probably the only positive contribution he had today. That doesn't justify him staying on for 90 mins. He was lucky to be on the pitch, he should have been sent off and we all know it. If Martial had a game like this, where he spent the whole game fighting with the RB, and arguing with the ref while missing chances.... he'd be dropped for 3 weeks. It doesn't even send the right message to the team when some players are not even subbed, let alone dropped, however badly they play.

 

[RedMaestro]

I fully agree that the other players need to chip in with more goals. That is indeed the main issue on most days. But today, Ibra was at the receiving end of everything good we did. He got played through twice, he took the free kicks, he took the pen. Pogba was the only other one who also had chances and I think he's also getting a LOT of criticism tonight.

As for the headers, they were probably the only positive contribution he had today. That doesn't justify him staying on for 90 mins. He was lucky to be on the pitch, he should have been sent off and we all know it. If Martial had a game like this, where he spent the whole game fighting with the RB, and arguing with the ref while missing chances.... he'd be dropped for 3 weeks. It doesn't even send the right message to the team when some players are not even subbed, let alone dropped, however badly they play.

This is Ibra for you - take the good with the bad....

Honestly the whole team was awful. Only one remotely being able to get a good "grade" from me was, Mata and Fellaini.

 

[POF]

I fully agree that the other players need to chip in with more goals. That is indeed the main issue on most days. But today, Ibra was at the receiving end of everything good we did. He got played through twice, he took the free kicks, he took the pen. Pogba was the only other one who also had chances and I think he's also getting a LOT of criticism tonight.

As for the headers, they were probably the only positive contribution he had today. That doesn't justify him staying on for 90 mins. He was lucky to be on the pitch, he should have been sent off and we all know it. If Martial had a game like this, where he spent the whole game fighting with the RB, and arguing with the ref while missing chances.... he'd be dropped for 3 weeks. It doesn't even send the right message to the team when some players are not even subbed, let alone dropped, however badly they play.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that Ibra had a terrible game. But I cannot think of a single attacking line up with the players available that would have made the team more likely to score with him off the pitch.

You can't just take him off because he's playing badly if it makes it less likely you will win the game.

If you took him off, who would you have replaced him with?