Are you prepared to trade performances for points?

[fastwalker]

The reality of Manchester United's rebuild is fairly simple, we have eight points and already three points off top four. A win against Arsenal would put us back in contention, but a defeat will leave us six points adrift. If that pattern were to continue we could easily be totally adrift of the top four by double digits well before Christmas.

However, here is the rub, if we do not get in the top four (or win the Europa League), we will struggle to keep some of our best players and will find it hard to attract other top players. If we cannot hold on to or attract top players then we will struggle to be competitive and if we struggle to be competitive, we will find it hard to reach top four and so on and so forth.

Every United fan wants the team to produce good quality and inspiring performances. We want to be entertained by a team that is worthy of the badge. But what happens if performances do not produce the desired results? What happens if good football by itself and on its own is not enough to secure Champions League football, what then?

As a United fan are you prepared to sacrifice attractive and attacking football for pragmatic performances in the name of simply grinding out results, by any means necessary?

As a United fan, if push comes to shove, are you prepared to trade performances for points?

 

[Irwin99]

The reality of Manchester United's rebuild is fairly simple, we have eight points and already three points off top four. A win against Arsenal would put us back in contention, but a defeat will leave us six points adrift. If that pattern were to continue we could easily be totally adrift of the top four by double digits well before Christmas.

However, here is the rub, if we do not get in the top four (or win the Europa League), we will struggle to keep some of our best players and will find it hard to attract other top players. If we cannot hold on to or attract top players then we will struggle to be competitive and if we struggle to be competitive, we will find it hard to reach top four and so on and so forth.

Every United fan wants the team to produce good quality and inspiring performances. We want to be entertained by a team that is worthy of the badge. But what happens if performances do not produce the desired results? What happens if good football by itself and on its own is not enough to secure Champions League football, what then?

As a United fan are you prepared to sacrifice attractive and attacking football for pragmatic performances in the name of simply grinding out results, by any means necessary?

As a United fan, if push comes to shove, are you prepared to trade performances for points?

Other than a second half blitz against Chelsea, has there been much attacking football so far this season? People mention shots per game but the majority are half chances and snatched shots that become routine saves for the keeper. One poster said the goalie for Rochdale had a 'worldie' against us. I mean seriously?!

The Leicester game was fine where we sacrificed the ball and shut them out. Probably our best chance of achieving anything this year is to grind out successive wins like that. It wont be pretty but it will have to do.

 

[adexkola]

This is a useless hypothetical. Let's say I'm interested in being pragmatic (I really want to dropkick this word and it's use in football into an endless chasm). Then what?

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

The reality of Manchester United's rebuild is fairly simple, we have eight points and already three points off top four. A win against Arsenal would put us back in contention, but a defeat will leave us six points adrift. If that pattern were to continue we could easily be totally adrift of the top four by double digits well before Christmas.

However, here is the rub, if we do not get in the top four (or win the Europa League), we will struggle to keep some of our best players and will find it hard to attract other top players. If we cannot hold on to or attract top players then we will struggle to be competitive and if we struggle to be competitive, we will find it hard to reach top four and so on and so forth.

Every United fan wants the team to produce good quality and inspiring performances. We want to be entertained by a team that is worthy of the badge. But what happens if performances do not produce the desired results? What happens if good football by itself and on its own is not enough to secure Champions League football, what then?

As a United fan are you prepared to sacrifice attractive and attacking football for pragmatic performances in the name of simply grinding out results, by any means necessary?

As a United fan, if push comes to shove, are you prepared to trade performances for points?

I'm not sure how you can perform well yet not pick up very many points doing so, the two just don't go hand in hand.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Other than a second half blitz against Chelsea, has there been much attacking football so far this season? People mention shots per game but the majority are half chances and snatched shots that become routine saves for the keeper. One poster said the goalie for Rochdale had a 'worldie' against us. I mean seriously?!

The Leicester game was fine where we sacrificed the ball and shut them out. Probably our best chance of achieving anything this year is to grind out successive wins like that. It wont be pretty but it will have to do.

You are clearly just looking at the scoreboard and deciding we haven't been playing attacking football. So far off the mark. We have definitely been playing attacking football but our finishing has been poor. As for the game against Rochdale, I wouldn't say the keeper had a "worldie" but he was definitely the MOTM

As for the OP, I don't mind scraping out results once in a while, but the whole point of this rebuild is to get the team back to playing the way we are known for. I would rather miss out on CHampions League football then watch us play like we did 2 years ago when we finished in 2nd place. The whole point is to get us back to winning championships, and that type of football won't win titles in England...

 

[charlenefan]

I'm not sure how you can perform well yet not pick up very many points doing so, the two just don't go hand in hand.

Assume you weren't around in 17/18 then?

To answer the OP yes, I'd rather play shit and win than play fancy football and lose and I'd obviously rather play shit and win than play shit and lose which is what we're doing at the moment

 

[Irwin99]

You are clearly just looking at the scoreboard and deciding we haven't been playing attacking football. So far off the mark. We have definitely been playing attacking football but our finishing has been poor. As for the game against Rochdale, I wouldn't say the keeper had a "worldie" but he was definitely the MOTM

As for the OP, I don't mind scraping out results once in a while, but the whole point of this rebuild is to get the team back to playing the way we are known for. I would rather miss out on CHampions League football then watch us play like we did 2 years ago when we finished in 2nd place. The whole point is to get us back to winning championships, and that type of football won't win titles in England...

That's absolute nonsense. Our finishing has been poor for one or two of the genuine chances we've created (see Pogba's free header the other night) but we're hardly carving teams open. I've watched every game this season and it's mostly been tumescent sideways passing for most of the half which results in a harmless shot straight at the goalie or a routine save. The urgency and energy just isn't there.

 

[edcunited1878]

You are clearly just looking at the scoreboard and deciding we haven't been playing attacking football. So far off the mark. We have definitely been playing attacking football but our finishing has been poor. As for the game against Rochdale, I wouldn't say the keeper had a "worldie" but he was definitely the MOTM

As for the OP, I don't mind scraping out results once in a while, but the whole point of this rebuild is to get the team back to playing the way we are known for. I would rather miss out on CHampions League football then watch us play like we did 2 years ago when we finished in 2nd place. The whole point is to get us back to winning championships, and that type of football won't win titles in England...

I disagree on the 'watching us when we finished in 2nd place' comment. You play to win the game, pure and simple. There are ways to get the 3 points or even result, but you have to do what is optimal for your team to get results and it's not always going to go to plan (i.e. perform well, get chances and win). Even Liverpool have become more pragmatic and direct in their approach. They don't do the gegenpress as much anymore as Klopp did it at Dortmund and in his first couple seasons. Because it's not optimal over the course of a season, especially in the Premier League. Just too competitive and the teams play different types of football. They aren't afraid to defend and counter or go long ball or set pieces.

I was completely fine with Jose approaching each match in isolation and setting up the team a few different ways to get a result. That's common sense. He should have been allowed to develop his team while trying to get results. It's a half in, half out approach with respect to consistent performance, getting results and developing players/style...and that's knowing he was on borrowed time. Establishing that base foundation of yeah, we can grind results, continue to play through the season and have that mindset of getting points, scrapping for points is essential for success. Cool, we played nicely but teams are jumping over us in the table. feck that noise.

United currently don't have enough quality to play teams off the park and that includes the lack of quality finishing. What is becoming more and more of concern to me is that Ole and the coaching staff are not flexible in midfield. I still think United are one of a very few teams in the top half of the table, let alone top 4, who play without 3 recognized central midfielders.

The tactical setup of 2 midfielders versus 3 may seem trivial to some, but it's essential when United are lacking consistent penetration from central midfield and from the #10/SS position. Chelsea worked a peach because United were at optimal circumstances (i.e. nobody was injured). But now that players are injured, which happens and unfortunately happens too frequently at United, do you continue with the tactical setup and just slot in players or do you adjust the tactical setup to accommodate your available player's strengths relative to your opponent and generating a result?

If you continue with the tactical setup throughout the squad regardless of optimal situation, then you in theory, would develop consistency in play regardless of players and it's a plug and play situation. The expectations of player A for this position and that position is consistent. It allows for natural progression in and out of the team. But only if your players have the quality and have continuity. Neither of which (in central mid or forward lines), are present at the moment.

If the core of the current United team going into Monday's encounter with Arsenal is their backline and a couple defensively solid central mids (DDG/Young/Maguire/Lindelof/AWB and McTominay/Matic), then use what you have at your disposal. Counter at will and be as solid as possible at the back. It's the only way possible at the moment. No need to be ignorant to the fact that United are short-handed in bodies and quality.

 

[Skills]

Where are these points that we're ready to trade away?

 

[yumtum]

Yeah I hate seeing us play like a prime Barca only to lose games.

I think I've enjoyed watching our games about 20 times in the last decade, and yes, that includes the last few years of SAF, which incidentally was the definition of results over performances, the last few years of Fergie produced some crap football, but we won - that kept us happy, but I'd genuinely love to see some good football from us.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Performance is not an end in and of itself. The team that plays 'better' is likelier to be the team that wins, that is what gives it importance. I find this recent performance vs results debate misguided.

I want results that is why I want good performances. If I had to choose I would rather grind out a result despite the performance. A team can win every once in a while despite not playing well. If performance is consistently bad it's very likely the results would reflect that.

If the OP is reffering to playing style (attacking vs defensive, possession vs pressing) I'm not too bothered. Whatever gives a result.

 

[JohnnyKills]

No, the project is the most important thing.

 

[Kostur]

Let's go even further and just get relegated, there our style might be even more impressive given lesser* quality of the opponents.

*theoretically because we looked like fecking shit against the roaches a couple of days ago.

 

[Zlatattack]

In what world would excellent performances not equal picking up points? Now and then maybe, but on the whole a good football performance should result in winning the match.

It's not just "attack attack attack", that we need. We need to win games whilst attacking.

 

[Denis79]

Problem now is that we play like shit and drop points, whats the third alternative? Playing even worse football will get us points?

 

[Roboc7]

The performances aren’t going to be good just as haven’t been for six season, this team isn’t being coached and doesn’t have ability to play good football.

It’s all about points and trying to cling on to top 4.

 

[Class of 63]

Yep, i'd be quite happy if we went back to basics, stunk the place out and won our next ten games 1-0 and gave ourselves a foundation to build on. The on the edge of your seat stuff can wait.

 

[passing-wind]

Another excuse for Solskjaer really.

Average manager = average performances / average results.

 

[Bastian]

If we become a lot more aggressive, quicker movement, quicker passing, higher workrate, it would probably also be a lot more pragmatic than what has been served up so far.

Being negative only really applies to games where we are easily the worse team. In my view, that's the games against Liverpool and City home and away and maybe Spurs/Chelsea away.

This attractive football vs. results is a bit of a false dichotomy now that we have a backline that isn't shit.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I don't know why people think it's so easy to just go 'alright, we'll play boring football now' and then the results will just perk up. Pragmatism does not equate to winning points in most situations, because other teams who aren't 'pragmatic' and have a clear, defined philosophy will mostly earn more points. Being pragmatic would generally mean being more adaptable to the obstacle you're facing, but the most successful teams now have a clear approach to games which they constantly work at (there's obviously some minor tactical changes they'll make, but they will always play a certain style) and this focus on their own strengths rather than adapting to their opponents is currently proving more successful.

People mistake pragmatism for defensive football, which it isn't. It wouldn't be at all pragmatic for United to play defensively against a majority of the Premier League.

 

[George The Best]

No, the project is the most important thing.

What project? We’ve got a decimated squad with no chance of top 4 imo. If the project was to seriously weaken us from last season then it’s been successful. Lack of CL again next season really hits the finances, finding it hard to believe the management have taken this route.

 

[Rory 7]

Why sack Jose?

 

[R'hllor]

I was always a win > but since JM it just turned off for me. Sure we can win here or there with shit performance and say "3pts move on" but in our case that turned as way of life and at the end it always caught up to us, always. During JM, we had game after game where you can say that if there is no a win and 3pts, there is nothing to lean if we dont, like nothing, nada, zilch.

So no, not sure i am ready, we have to have performances and build our points on it, last season vs Watford could be an example, where even we won 3:2 (i think) and it felt like we lost, never had that kind feeling before, so feck that.

I dont think i ever saw a team producing quality performances in all areas of the pitch, specially in attacking one, week in, week out and not be rewarded with points in most games. There were moments last season where that "looking forward to next week" just died out.

 

[Mcking]

If you perform well, then you are more likely to get points.

 

[George The Best]

If you perform well, then you are more likely to get points.

That assumes you’ve got enough quality to perform well. We just don’t.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Perform well --> likelyhood of more chances created increased --> likelyhood of more goals scored increases --> Likelyhood of more points gathered increases.

Problem with this whole "Rebuild" is that the people involved at United does not seem to understand how modern football is played and what are the similarities among all the best teams in the world...

1. Most of the players in these teams got a high level of technical ability and this is the cornerstone for how they are able to play their different styles of football, either it be possessionbased or Klopps high press and direct approach. Should be noted Liverpool can play possessionbased again deep sitting teams well. (United got few players with a good ability on the ball, and are completely unable to pass the ball with some sort of meaning behind it)
2. Fewer and fewer players are complete specialist or got big limitations in their game. The trend, similar to NBA, goes toward a "balanced player". (We have a number of players with obvious limitations in their game.)
3. Fullbacks are very good on the ball, either as passers or as attacking weapons or both. (Our fullbacks are incompetent going forward)

Maybe OGS and his team understands how the game is played, but due to obvious limitations within the squad the team is unable to play this type of football. Then again, why would they buy players that are not able to play the way most top teams play today? Do they think that they will invent the wheel again and revolutionize the way football is played like gegenpress or tiki-taka did with a team of players unable to string together 5 passes? Or players that have obvious weaknesses in their game that the opposition can exploit?

To me, we are are rebuilding, we are restoring. Restoring the same problem (squad) with the same ingredients albeit with different names. And the longer we continue on this road (since 2009) the bigger the gap between us and the top will continue. Only positive i take from all this is that every bad appointment or transfer makes us less desirable and profitable for the Glazers and they are a little more likely to sell the club after each season.

 

[Valuedrug]

I think the discussion point you’re trying to raise is a bit irrelevant to the current situation.

Ole and his people do not have the tactical ability or the options at hand to bank points by playing ugly. Sure, we could win a few games this season by playing on the break, but it won’t get us in the top four. I think we can forget about that entirely.

So far we have seen nothing to suggest that there is any real, competitive game plan for our attack either. So how would we play anything that could be classified as exciting, attacking football under this regime? Again, not likely to happen, unless Michael Carrick wakes up tomorrow blessed with a football epiphany and the ability to communicate it as well. Personally, I won’t be holding my breath.

I do not see us finishing in the top four this season. So best case would be that we start defining the contours of a football project, which could entice some talented and hungry players for he prospect of seasons to come. If by some small miracle we could win the Europa League while doing this...well, then we have a real possibility of an exciting near future.

The main problem is that Ole and his merry band of smile merchants look way out of their depth, while having to work with a paper thin and fragile squad to boot. Since we’re in September, the only managers around who might have an outside chance of guiding us towards this bright, sparkling future filled to the brim with Sanchos and Maddisons...are all working. At better run clubs than United. So unless some new manager comes out of the blue with a master plan, I think we will either have to pray for that Carrick epiphany, or for the team to just click at some point.

Unfortunately, it looks far more likely that we will be forced to watch Liverpool win the league, while Chelsea steal our dream of seeing the clubs favoured son steering a team of homegrown, future stars to some measure of glory.

Tough months ahead I’d wager.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I’d just like to see us do the basics.

Pass in triangles, work 1-2s, 3rd man runs off the ball and fullbacks overlapping, crossing from the byline not outside the box.

We seem such a poorly coached team offensively but do manage to defend well. It seems at this club we believe in coaching drills but the attack is just “play as you feel” which our squad doesn’t seem smart enough to do.

For oles apparent love of speed I find his mixture of Matic, pereira and mata in the same team a bit odd. Perhaps limited by his options but you need some dynamism in there.

 

[adman]

Right now we are getting neither, so any one of them will be welcome.

 

[In Rainbows]

What in the world? Our football has been dire this entire season. Is this what people think attacking football looks like? Just go and watch Liverpool, Dortmund, City, etc...

We already play like crap. We're not getting any points either.

 

[haram]

If you’re not winning, you are not playing good football.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

If you’re not winning, you are not playing good football.

This./

 

[eire-red]

At the moment we're doing neither and it's hard to see where the improvement is going to come from in the near future.

I would just like to actually sit down for a United match this season with the feeling that we're going to win. Bar the initial positivity from the Chelsea result, I fully expected us to lose against West Ham and Leicester, and sadly am not hopeful against Arsenal on Monday night. That's not how it should be.

Obviously we gotta support the team no matter what, but it's hard to find any positivity at the moment.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Yes. But at the same time there needs to be evidence that we are developing a playing style. Ole needs to be able to switch between playing it safe for the points and going out to win a game when we have a fit squad and the opposition can be got at.

 

[momo83]

That’s like asking Danny De Vito would he trade being tall to be good looking

 

[fastwalker]

I don't know why people think it's so easy to just go 'alright, we'll play boring football now' and then the results will just perk up. Pragmatism does not equate to winning points in most situations, because other teams who aren't 'pragmatic' and have a clear, defined philosophy will mostly earn more points. Being pragmatic would generally mean being more adaptable to the obstacle you're facing, but the most successful teams now have a clear approach to games which they constantly work at (there's obviously some minor tactical changes they'll make, but they will always play a certain style) and this focus on their own strengths rather than adapting to their opponents is currently proving more successful.

People mistake pragmatism for defensive football, which it isn't. It wouldn't be at all pragmatic for United to play defensively against a majority of the Premier League.

That is a really good point. There are absolutely no guarantees that results will improve if we become more pragmatic (ie: recognise the obvious limitations of the team and adjust the playing style to suit). However, it seems fairly obvious to me that the style of play that Ole favours: moving the ball quickly, front-foot, pressing high up the pitch and creativity from the flanks is not working. We don't have the creativity in midfield, delivery from wide areas is often wasteful, the players do not appear to have the fitness levels for a high-pressing game and some players need too many touches on the ball. If that is the case, then instead of trying to develop a strength, which Ole is doing, perhaps he should simply be pragmatic and build on existing strengths just to eke out results. Defensively, we are stronger, we also have speed merchants and can play well off the counter - in other words we are probably better off setting up like a Leicester City circa 2015/16. Even if that means that we end up being boring and predictable, surely the most important thing are the results.

 

[Pexbo]

I fully support the trading points for the development of Greenwood, James, McTominay, Taunzebe, Gomes and dare I say it... Chong.

We've leaned our squad right down to bare bones and young talent. If we can develop that core into something of a functional side and then flesh it out with quality players in the Sancho profile then I think we could see some success in the future.

It's going to require an absolute tonne of patience from the fans and restraint from the directors though because it's not going to be an enjoyable process for the most part.

 

[red thru&thru]

Other than a second half blitz against Chelsea, has there been much attacking football so far this season? People mention shots per game but the majority are half chances and snatched shots that become routine saves for the keeper. One poster said the goalie for Rochdale had a 'worldie' against us. I mean seriously?!

The Leicester game was fine where we sacrificed the ball and shut them out. Probably our best chance of achieving anything this year is to grind out successive wins like that. It wont be pretty but it will have to do.

First half against was probably the best we've played. It actually made me think we were on to something good. I accepted the 2nd half thinking the players just weren't used to play such high intensity football. But I see I was wrong. It did give me hope but that has soon evaporated

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Defensively, we are stronger, we also have speed merchants and can play well off the counter - in other words we are probably better off setting up like a Leicester City circa 2015/16. Even if that means that we end up being boring and predictable, surely the most important thing are the results.

I don't think if you played defensively and on the counter the results would improve much. Against the top six (or even top eight now, maybe?) it may do, but against the majority of the league playing a defensive style and being reliant on sitting deep and soaking up pressure won't work well. You'll end up with a lot of frustrating draws against teams the other sides will be beating consistently, and those games are worth more points than the more glamorous games.

There's no real quick fix to the problems United are facing. In for the long haul for genuine improvement with either Ole or whoever else you target.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

What project? We’ve got a decimated squad with no chance of top 4 imo. If the project was to seriously weaken us from last season then it’s been successful. Lack of CL again next season really hits the finances, finding it hard to believe the management have taken this route.

The relegation project of course.